The Language of Leadership: Episode 3 - The role of being tenacious in sport and business

Ayo Akinwolere:  Hello, I'm Ayo Akinwolere. I'm a broadcaster, changemaker and World Record Swimmer and welcome to this episode of Gowling WLG's Language of Leadership podcast.

In this series we're exploring the lessons business can take from sports when it comes to leadership.

Working with my co-host Charlie Unwin, a sports performance psychologist, Gowling WLG has analysed the language used by elite individuals in sports and business and has developed six lessons for business leaders to take from sports leaders.

Today, we are going to look at tenacity. And before we intro our main guest, Charlie I'd really be interested to hear your take on this one.

Charlie Unwin: Yes, so tenacity. For me, I think in the context of what we're talking about today, it's all about being able to dig deep and keep going in times of hardship, which, of course, I think is very visible in sport. You can see people suffering in sport, whether that's just through physical duress, or whether it's the scoreline, the challenges of the game. But of course, in business, this is very real as well. Businesses don't succeed without a degree of persistence and determination as well, so that's essential in getting results. I guess the key thing is how can we manage tenaciousness more effectively?

Ayo: For sure? Well, I'll tell you what, let's get our first guest in because joining us to share her experiences in this area, is someone who's got a whole heap of accolades - I don't even know where to begin - but she's also an Olympic and European gold medallist for field hockey. And is also now braving the world of broadcasting. She's also the first ever female captain for the BBC show A Question of Sport. I'm glad to say we've got Sam Quek with us. Good to see you.

Sam Quek: What a lovely intro.

Ayo: I know, I worked on that one. I had to try my best.

Sam: You built me up there. But yeah, it's interesting to hear what Charlie said, because I've definitely experienced a lot of those to achieve those things that you've just listed there.

Ayo: Okay, well, let's dig into it then and sort of start with I guess, mental toughness. Something a lot of people in the world of business need, and a lot of people in the world of sport need. In fact, Charlie, digging deep when there's a severe challenge at hand, can you start us off by explaining how this can present itself in the world of business? And also, we'll talk about you in the world of sport as well.

Charlie: Well, interestingly, taking neither of those Ayo, my reference point for this is in the military because doing a bit of work with Special Forces, I was talking to an ex Special Forces Squadron Commander the other day and the selection process for Special Forces is like no other, it's brutal for six months. And I asked him, what's the secret to success? Beyond just being physically fit enough and capable enough, which is almost a given for the people who actually get that far to start day one of selection? And he simply replied, just turn up each day. And I was kind of taken aback by that response. I said, what do you mean, he said, well, most of the people who fail selection withdraw voluntarily. In other words, they're not kicked off, they choose to exit themselves from that. Whereas if they could find a way of being able to get up each morning and say, I'm going to turn up, then they stand a much greater likelihood of getting to the end of the process. I think there's a really human element to this. And of course, it's so much easier said than done.

Ayo: You know, for sure. What about you, that element of turning up, for sure, playing as part of a very successful hockey team, and just in day-to-day turning up, but let's focus on the world of sport, that notion of tenacity turning up, especially when the chips are down? Any references on that, from your point of view?

Sam: Yeah, definitely. You know, 2016 gold medal year, success, smiles, joy. But I actually got my first cap in 2007, which meant I missed out on selection for Beijing Olympics. And then I obviously missed out on 2012 Olympics, and I had a whole kind of mental fight against myself. And it's, I probably lacked that fight and lacked that belief in myself. And it was almost a downward spiral. So, I actually had more days of not being selected and then questioning myself do I want to turn up? Quite often people say, well, what was it then if you had that doubt? And it's really strange because you have to, I believe in sport and to a certain element in life or business or whatever it is, you have to have an element of, not arrogance, but certainly a strong self-belief that you believe that you are good enough and that you can get selected and you are better than perhaps your opponent or someone else who's gone for that spot that you're fighting for. That's what really kept me going to be honest. And also, I really hated getting an email or a phone call of not being selected and then having to go home and tell my parents, friends, who believed in me and invested in me that I hadn't been selected. So, I wanted that moment of, finally I've been selected and to prove the people that had said, actually, Sam, you know, you're not good enough - you're never gonna make it - because deep down in my gut, I had a belief that I was good enough because I was playing well. And I just wasn't getting that break and that opportunity.

Charlie: What I'm interested in though, what was the influence of other people, mentors, leaders, coaches in helping you find that self-belief? Or did you feel like it was your responsibility to have that?

Sam: I think at first, I felt it was solely on my shoulders. And I experience working with sports psychologists who didn't work great with me and another sports psychologists who I did work well with. And an example of that would be in the 2012 cycle, I worked with a sports psychologist who made me focus on the things I needed to get better at. So for example, one of the things I needed to focus on, our head coach was very aware that he said, every time I get the ball, if I make a mistake, it's my decision making between passing and dribbling, naturally, so under pressure, do I pass it or do I dribble it, and he made me sit down and watch every single clip that I did, unsuccessfully, and why it was unsuccessful, and what I had to do to make it successful. And I found myself scrolling through hours and hours of game footage focusing on what I was doing wrong, when actually, when I looked back, and I worked with a new psychologist, we realised that wasn't helping me at all, because I was focusing so much on the negative that in the match, when the ball came to me, all I was thinking was, don't get it wrong, don't get it wrong. And then ultimately, I was, you know, really nervous, I'd pass the ball away, I'd lose control, or I'd make the wrong decision. And it wasn't until 2014, we had a new sports psychologist come in, and I clicked with her straightaway. Andrea was brilliant and she just said, just Sam relax, you enjoy hockey, enjoy it, and focus on things that are good for you in that and look at things in a positive light. And they were the two differences, which I found definitely helped with my sports career.

Ayo: For sure. I'm really interested in that sort of critique, notion. And, you know, talk about being tenacious and driven to be the best, but there will be times where you're told that you don't make the team. Or you're told that was the worst game I've ever seen you play? How do you overcome that? How do you keep going? How are you flexible within that?

Sam: I mean, it's tough. Again, it comes to that self-belief that you can be better, and you want to be better. I'm a little bit of a nightmare. I crave feedback. So, you know whether it's in broadcasting, which I'm doing now, even when I play club hockey, or when I was playing international hockey, someone could tell me I was brilliant at nine things out of 10. But that one thing that needed improvement, that's all I would focus on. And I still do that now.

Charlie: But does that take away from the nine things? Or actually, did you need those nine things in order to feel strong enough to deal with that one question?

Sam: Yeah, I think so, I think so. But I was just so driven not to make the same mistakes that I would, or that one thing that was just needed improvement. And I'd probably have suffered more if you didn't tell me what that one thing was that needed improvement, because I'd know in myself that I wasn't great at that today. And if I didn't talk about it or talk about how it could be better than the other nine things would just be pointless.

Charlie: Yeah. Edwin Moses talks about it as a champagne moment when suddenly him and his coach would discover something that would make him run faster, be better. It's kind of an interesting way of looking at it, isn't it? Sort of actually we're looking for those things. But if the culture doesn't suit that, I mean, business is challenging.

Ayo: Interesting to know how we bring this into the world of business. How do you balance that tenacity? Because you want everyone to succeed clearly, but you're gonna have to give some feedback at times.

Charlie: Exactly. And I think there's a greater danger in business that we expect people to be good at their jobs. That's the defaults. So, development isn't as explicit, it's not as conscious. So, we don't help people. We're not giving them those nine things. And yet, when they make a mistake, or something goes wrong, we call it feedback because if that's the only type of feedback that there is, and of course, it's no wonder that people's confidence gets undermined over time. And their consistency. So, the ability to be tenacious, the ability to keep going is that much harder when the feedback culture isn't kind of, you know, building you up a little bit and keeping you going.

Sam: Yeah, there was a fine line, which we learnt as a squad. We called it basically, how are you on your A game? And how are you on your Z game? And how do you get someone who's not on their A game back to where they need to be? And we actually spent hours and hours and hours. We all went away and did what we would look like on a good day, what we'd sound like on a good day and how we would behave on a good day, and then flip that how we would look sound and behave on a bad day, and how our teammates could get us back. So how they would recognise sorry, us on a bad day and how they would get us back to being on a good day.

We spent hours and hours in a room learning about each other, and we recognise that actually, different people wanted that feedback in different ways. So, for example, me when I was on the pitch, if I did a really glaringly obvious mistake, you don't have to tell me I know. Or I would be happy for someone to really look at me and say, Sam, that is not good enough and shout at me and do whatever, because I reacted better to that, I like that, you know, kick up the backside, almost. Whereas a fellow teammate of mine would react really quite badly if they had that type of feedback from their team on the pitch, you know, they'd go down and shallow into themselves, they take it personally. Everybody's so different in how they take the feedback and how it's delivered to them. That was a really, really successful exercise, which we found in the long run, because ultimately, like you say, everybody's human, everybody's individual, and we all react so different to different forms of feedback.

Ayo: My thing is, did you require that feedback from the coach? Or was it something you guys decided as a team that you'd be giving each other?

Sam: A bit of both, so we had meetings where it was actually quite intimate between the players, because ultimately, you'd be closer to some people and not as close to the other. For me, I had certain teammates, who would come up to me and say, Sam, I noticed that you weren't, you know, your normal bubbly self, today, what's going on at home is everything okay? But then there would also be a teammate who actually I wouldn't open up as much as I would with another teammate. It's almost recognising who can deliver that feedback. And then on another meeting, the coaches would be there so coaches could see a certain side to us. Then players would see a certain side, so there were only certain meetings that coaches would be in because naturally, they're the ones who were selecting you and some people didn't want to open up as much in front of a coach and be as vulnerable.

Charlie: There is a simplification in that whole thing which sounds brilliant, I made a note of that, by the way to use. There's this implication there that people want other people to succeed, which sounds really obvious, you know, when you're gunning for a gold medal at the Olympics, but in business, it's not always made that clear. What is the benefit of me going out of my way to help you be better at what you do? I think that's what good leaders do; they create the sense that all ships rise in a high tide. And if the people around us are performing, if they're excelling, if they're at their best, they're going to raise the bar and help us be at our best. Do you know what, your example there about the A game and being able to articulate the A game. I imagine that was a big part of the process. I have never had to describe it before. You know, how do I describe it? I remember at Heathrow Airport, I did a bit of work with the security team, the head of security, who came up with a very similar concept. He was in charge of 3000 security personnel, biggest airport in Europe, vast, and on big days where hundreds of thousands of people will come through the terminals, they were under a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure. They would create what they call A Days. And every single department had to identify what an A Day meant to them. And they had to enact on certain days of the year, their A game days. And he said, what's really interesting is that having defined what an A Day was, it would start influencing thousands of micro behaviours that you never ever could have told them to do or picked up on. Like, for example, a lot of the female staff would start wearing flats or shoes, because they knew they're on an A Day, they would have to be able to communicate more, which means that they've got to walk from one terminal to the other, so they wear different shoes. He said, I never would have thought to have told them to wear different shoes, but it kind of leaked out to this sort of idea.

Sam: So, it's even, you know, we talked about things of what it would look like whether its body language with the tone of your voice. So, I mean, the GB team still do it now as part of their culture. When the halftime whistle will go, or a quarter time whistle, it was a given that, you know, people just stroll in you get your breath. But actually, it's all about body language. What did the opposition see? Did they see you sprinting into the coach full of energy, things like that?

It's really interesting when you talk about business, and how it crosses over with sport, because in sport, ultimately, there was 32 women who were fighting for a spot in the 16-person squad. So, you have to be really close and trust your teammates. But ultimately, you're up against them, you're competing against that spot that you want to be in. As a defender, you know there's four that go to the Olympic games, but there's actually 10 who were fighting for them spots. So, there is a fine line of being massively competitive. But at the same time, you want to be there, you want to see them succeed, because if they succeed, you succeed, and the team succeeds. It is a very fine line of getting that right balance for it to then be a healthy competition.

Ayo: As you're talking now, I'm sort of thinking, you're one of these people that sort of transcends different spaces, from sport now into broadcasting. This notion of being tenacious on the sports field versus having that drive to try and succeed in a space that you're fundamentally learning a new skill in many respects, it's a different kind of exposure, how much crossover has there been for you in terms of what you learnt on that field in terms of determination, tenaciousness into a space where fundamentally, they're going to be nit-picking at you a lot more in a very different way?

Sam: It's a lot more public isn't it. There's been plenty of crossovers. And I always say to everyone, it's the closest thing to live sport where I get that same adrenaline rush. And purely because in sport, for example, with the hockey if you didn't do your homework on your opposition, how we were going to play tactically, if the ball was injected on a penalty corner, by player X and trapped by player Y, you knew what they were going to do, because of who was in what position and where the ball would go so you could defend to the best of your ability. And it's the same in broadcasting. I'm sure you'll know, you don't do your homework, and you're doing an interview with someone. If they say something, and you have no idea what they're talking about, you're gonna look like an absolute idiot. And it's the same on the hockey pitch, if you have no idea where the ball is gonna go, because that player stood there, you're just gonna get passed around and ultimately, they'll score, and you'll look like an idiot. So, it's all for me about doing homework and being prepared. And that side of things, I really enjoy - that's the part I enjoyed about sport and seeing it come off and that preparation, you get the results, whether it's in broadcasting and sport, because you can deliver to the best of your ability. And then when it comes to feedback, yeah, I'm a bit of a stickler you know, I like to know.

Ayo: You like to know - did I say that word perfectly, no, okay, I'll get it right. Just practice it in front of your mirror.

Charlie: We're going to have to give Sam a list of feedback after this.

Sam: What it is, it's a fine line, like you say, because it's so much more public, that feedback can actually become quite unhealthy. Especially if it's from people who sometimes aren't warranted to give you that feedback.

Charlie: You've reminded me there, talking about this kind of idea of doing your homework, because if you do your homework up front, you can be more adaptable, more intuitive, but ultimately more resilient in the moment and you know, my go to for that and always has been it's not just because you're Sam here, is Maddie Hinch in goal. I remember that that penalty shootout at the Games and it was incredible to watch. And I remember listening to Maddie talk about how important the years prior to that, the homework and just picking up on how attackers attacked her and what their natural style was. Not because she had to hold all that information in her head as that penalty shootout occurred, but because it would give her a better sort of intuition that she would trust her instincts. But if the homework hadn't been done, she wouldn't trust her instincts, then she would second guess yourself.

Sam: That's where you have that element of doubt. Then the nerves creep in. Then you start thinking about other things rather than the job at hand. But yeah, Maddie did an awesome job and I think, you know, we see the likes of Jordan Pickford go and do it in the Euros after 2016. So many people now are taking up that type of that homework and I think she had the tape on her ball, stay big and key words. But yeah, again, that's just down to, I mean, what people didn't see, they saw the gold medal, but we have things like thinking Thursdays, where Danny Carey would turn around and go right, you're one nil down against the USA, find a way to win. You need to score two goals in seven minutes. You would go through that process, and then you'd go back, and you'd go through the video, everything was monitored, you know, from your heart rate to how fast and how far you ran -videoed from two different angles. It just comes down to the homework, so that you can go into an Olympics, or you can go into the job fully prepared so that actually when the camera's rolling, when you're on the pitch, it just almost like a second nature.

Ayo: Is there anything the world of business can take from that sort of preparation do you think?

Charlie: So, what Sam describes there is sometimes called Wargaming. Now that comes from Special Forces. I embarrass myself, you reminded me of me, thank-you very much. Because I found myself in a briefing room of, you know, a certain military base, and I was talking about Sir Clive Woodward talking about Wargaming with the rugby team in 2003. And just like that, they would have a kind of scoreboard, they'd have a time, and they would have positions on the field and say, right, pick on a player. What do you do now? Just getting practice making decisions, discuss that, what's the best thing we could do? And then you develop this kind of team mind around that, so Sam describes how they did that. And of course, I was there describing this. And they said, yeah, actually, we had Clive in here and we taught him that. I was like ah OK, you're the expert.

Sam: You keep going back to the military. I remember Danny Carey saying that he obviously went on a course, and I think we even went away to the Marines one weekend which was brutal by the way, the hardest physical thing I think I've ever done. He said, the decision-making process he was inspired because you know, when there put in a room and they have a hood and the hoods lifted, and you have to make a decision, that's where he got that decision making and decision making under pressure element from when he introduced it into our training.

Charlie: And how good were you at it?

Sam: There was no hoods or anything like that. I was alright at being a defender.

Ayo: There is something I just want to touch on briefly, is this idea, and you mentioned it when you're taking your eye off the ball a little bit when you start overthinking when you're not feeling at your best, because you need the tenacity as well to override that. What kind of strategies did you ever create when you knew you probably weren't at your best, but you knew you had to get something out of yourself?

Sam: So, for me, I identified my super strength. And again, that was something that we realised and recognised as players. My super strength was making a tackle. So, whatever was going wrong, however I felt, I just made sure that I would use my super strength. So, if I put in a big hard tackle, that was almost like a reset button for myself.

Ayo: Like a pat on the back?

Sam: Yeah, like a pat on the back. It's alright, you've still got it. You've not become a terrible hockey player overnight, or in that last minute. And if I could do that, that was a reset button where I'd take a breath and go right, okay, we start again.

And a classic example of that was the Olympic final. I'd never been so physically nervous in terms of shaking and feeling my legs go a little bit jellyish until the Olympic final. And it almost just hit home what was at stake, and I came on the pitch. And my first touch, I gave the ball away to the centre forward. And you know, they're running one on one. And I made the most ridiculous panicky tackle that actually gave away a penalty flick. And I knew when I look back, I mean, I could have gone completely downhill and it could have gone one way or I actually I went the other way, which was right, relax now. All the nerves are out your system, you've made a terrible mistake, it's not going to get worse. Take a breath. Next thing, which was to make the next tackle. And that's what I use in terms of strategic on the pitch stuff. But then off the pitch, I also had to get very like, again, this sounds really terrible and very like blasé, but it was like, forget it. It's done, it's happened. Focus on the next thing.

Ayo: Move on?

Sam: Move on exactly. That sounds easy to say, but it probably took me about five odd years to get to that place of actually being able to move on and just forget about that mistake.

Ayo: Whatever, leaders, then you've got a team, you know, it's a well-functioning team, but as with any human being, there's gonna be the odd wobble. How do you make sure that person who has that wobble still operates at optimum performance? Because fundamentally, it's a team effort to achieve an objective.

Charlie: I think the first thing is not to pretend that any kind of performance and business included doesn't harbour emotions? Of course, we do. We care about you know, the quality of our work, we care about the relationships that we have. And so, I think the first thing is to recognise that emotions are part of that, they actually give it a richness. And I think if we tried to avoid that or pretend that that's not a part of the process, we're kind of going down the wrong route, you know, it becomes a very kind of logical process, which in reality, it's not, it's all about the lived experience. I think the danger of that is that we expect unreasonable things from people in business. It's funny in sport, you almost have permission to expect an unreasonable amount of effort. It's uncompromising, you know, you will do whatever it takes. Now, of course, there has to be balance within that, because if you burn out, you then become less effective anyway. But coaches will expect and, well, it's not considered unreasonable because everyone's contracted in. And everyone's on the same psychological contract, we will do whatever it takes, and we'll do it together.

I think sometimes business leaders would like for their teams to be like that. But we have to be realistic, right? Some people turn up to work to get paid so they can pay their bills, and they don't want to put in a disproportionate amount of effort. And I think that's fine. But business leaders have to contract with their teams to understand what does it mean to go above and beyond? What are the expectations? What support do you want from us to be able to do that? So, I think that's a really important consideration for leaders.

Ayo: Yeah, really awesome. Right, things are drawing to an end, because we could be here all day, as per usual. Honestly, lots to talk about, but we don't have the time. Key takeaways. Let's go for one key takeaway in terms of tenacity. And for leaders to hear from your perspective, what do you think that should be from this conversation?

Sam: If I'm gonna be honest, again, it can sound very selfish, but ultimately, you can talk about being part of a team and having a support system around you. And for me, that's really crucial. It would have to be when it comes down to the bare bones of things there's only one person that can control how well you do, and that is you.

I probably learned quite late on that the most important thing for me was to control the things that I can control and focus on those things. I used to focus on things which are out of my control. So, you know, what the coach was thinking about me, where he was, so you know, if he was sitting on the same dinner table, if he wasn't, did he like me? Did he not? And a lot of my energy was going into that, or if someone got selected ahead of me, why did they get selected ahead of me? What are they doing that I'm not?

So, when I became successful, I started focusing on my game, my fitness. Once I had that base level, and confidence in myself and what I could control, that's when I could then step onto the next layer, which would then be right, okay, I need to work with X, Y, and Z, and how can I compliment them to compliment myself.

So first of all, control what you can control. And then ultimately, to have a belief - if you don't believe that you're good enough, and that you can get selected or that you are better than what other people believe, then you don't have that motivation. You have to have that self-belief to then have the motivation to keep going. Because there's going to be people who say no, I mean, the whole way, my whole career, even in broadcasting, and ultimately, there's going to be personality clashes, there's going to be you know, bosses, coaches who actually rate someone over you, because that's human nature. And that is just how the world goes round. I think there's a lot of emphasis now where people quit, because they think well, I didn't get selected that first time. It's over. And it's just a case of, just prove your worth. And if you deliver, if you perform well, if you do good on a job, then that speaks volumes. And then people can see what you can do. So definitely that, don't ever lose belief in yourself, because there will be opportunity. And when the opportunity comes, you have to take it.

Ayo: But also, I guess if you think about broadcasting, controlling what you can, you can't control how an audience member will react to your performance. You've just got to believe you're doing what you're doing and actually take comfort in the fact that you've done a, personally you feel you've done a good job.

Sam: You do, you can't be anybody else. I mean, again, it's a lesson that goes into anything. In I'm a Celeb, when I went in after the jungle, I was focusing on so many different things. And people were saying, oh, have you done this? What about a bikini? You know, do you want to get chicken fillets to make your boobs look bigger, do you want fake eyelashes, and nails, your fake tan? And I was panicking thinking, oh, my goodness, I need to do that. Because almost be accepted by the wider public. You know, 13 million people watching it, all these things going through my head. And I went to Pride of Britain Awards, I think it was about two weeks before and there was a lovely young girl, Nikki, who had a very severe facial disfigurement. And she'd won an award because she was so proud about what she was about, who she was, and she had been doing makeup tutorials on YouTube. I literally sat there and said, why am I being so pathetic? Worrying about that when I've got this young girl, she was 14 at the time, and she's proud of her being her own person in her own skin. I thought, I'm going in the jungle to be who I am. And that was physically just being, talking about who I wanted to be. And what lesson I took. It was just like, if you pretend to be someone you're not your whole life, you have to pretend to be that person. And you have to live up to that expectation. And then you're not being true to yourself, and you're not working to your strengths. So that was a big lesson for me, just be yourself. And like you say, on TV, you can only do what you can do, and be yourself. So, they will be my massive takeaways.

Ayo: I love that, I love the idea that if the public and the private don't match, there's a disconnect there really isn't there?

Charlie: Totally, absolutely. It's brilliant - really inspiring stuff. And from my point for business leaders, I think they have the opportunities to just borrow some of the really practical things from sport, for example, you know, Sam talks about perhaps a match is a discrete period of time. But of course, in business, we don't have those discrete periods. So much as you know, there might be really drawn out and, don't forget, you know, we can stop and step back. It doesn't take long. Say OK, what's going on here? We're always taught to do it in the army, is just stop and analyse what's happening here? Regain control, carry on. And I think there's always that opportunity to do that. But looking ahead, you know, generally people have sight of their diaries, and they can kind of see what I'd call red zones, amber zones, green zones. Red zones, we're going to have a period of real intensity here where we need to dig deep. We need a lot of energy from everyone. At least if you're proactive about that you can call it out, you can discuss it. How are you going to support each other? And you can have more of a team conversation like Sam describes, and we can absolutely do that in business, but it does encourage us to be proactive rather than reactive, which of course is I think, a challenge.

Ayo: Yeah, for sure, I tell you what I think we covered more than one takeout in that. It's like where do you even stop because there's so much to contain, but look, I've got to say Sam, this has been a pleasure man. This has been so good to have you with us.

Sam: You could just talk forever, couldn't you? The conversation can go on so many different tangents. I've enjoyed it.

Ayo: Of course, Charlie, as always monsieur. Until the next one.

Charlie: Until the next one, exactly. Look forward to that.

Ayo: Cheers guys, thanks for listening.