Diversonomics | Season 6 Episode 1: The importance of intentionally claiming your agency

Gladys: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Diversonomics. The podcast about the diversity and inclusion from Gowling WLG. So this voice, and the one that you're about to hear, probably sounds unfamiliar to the faithful listeners. I'm your new Co-host, Gladys Osien. I'm a lawyer at Gowling WLG.

Phedely: My name is Phedely Ariste, and I'm also a lawyer with Gowling WLG, and I'm looking forward to being your new Co-host.

Gladys: We'll get a chance to introduce ourselves more formerly in a future episode, but to start we'd like to say that we're honoured to continue the work that Roberto Aberto and Cindy Kou have done on this podcast, and grateful for the opportunity to step in Co-hosts. We'd like to thank them both for the insightful and timely discussions on a wide variety of important topics that, in our opinion, have shaped the legal podcast industry in how we talk about D&I. Roberto is still with us, in a different capacity, as a resident producer of the show. Shout-out to you, Roberto.

Phedely: We are coming to you from Ottawa and we would like to recognize that Ottawa is located on the unceded, surrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe Nation. We extend our respect to all First Nations, Inuit and Métis people for their valuable past and present contributions to this land. For this episode of Diversonomics, Gladys and I want to showcase the practice and work of Raphael Tachie, a partner and practice group leader at Gowling WLG's Vancouver office, who has by all accounts defied the odds in this profession. According to a recent statistic published by the Canadian Human Resources Reporter, in 2020, only 1%25 of partners at leading firms in Ontario are Black. We can only assume that the number of partners is significantly smaller in British Columbia where only 0.5%25 of lawyers identified as Black in a report published by the Law Society of British Columbia. We want to highlight Raphael's journey, his practice and take in an depth look into the choices that helped him achieve his success and be where he is today.

Gladys: In view we can look at these statistics in two ways. As a disappointing representation of the work that still needs to be done in the diversity and inclusion space and also as an opportunity to celebrate those that have joined a very singular community as lawyers. Keeping in mind though that Black people are not a monolith. Consider this a disclaimer for this episode and future ones but acknowledging the importance that representation has in these spaces. In the words of the lawyer and activist, Marian Wright Edelman, you can't be what you can't see. We hope that our conversation will inspire you, our listeners, with the confidence to explore your goals no matter which communities you hail from.

Phedely: And, without any further ado, we are pleased to introduce today's guest. But before doing so we'd like to remind all of you that all of our episodes can be found at gowlingwlg.com/diversonomics. Ontario lawyers, you can get your EDI credits just for listening and please do not follow suit on mistakes I have made in waiting too late to complete your hours. Do so all throughout the year.

Gladys: As we mentioned, Raphael is a partner at our firm. He is leading the private client services team. Raphael is primarily focused on providing strategic legal advice to high-net-worth clients and financial institutions across all areas of estate and trust law. Or, as Raphael quite eloquently summarized it in his Twitter bio, he works as a wealth preservation lawyer. In addition to his role at Gowling WLG he is a very, very dedicated Arsenal fan. Raphael sits on the editorial board of the Canadian Lawyer magazine and is the President of the Canadian Association of Black Lawyers, also known as CABL.

Raphael: Thank you. You make me sound fancier than I actually am. I have to cut and paste that into my bio and send it around.

Phedely: Raphael, you know it's an awesome pleasure to have you here, but you and I have had the chance to go back and forth on your allegiance to Arsenal and mine to Manchester United. I did go back and forth with Gladys on whether we should have an Arsenal fan on the podcast but I just want to say it's an awesome pleasure to speak with you today and welcome to the show once again. So can you tell us a bit about what your practice entails? What does it mean to provide strategic legal advice to high-net-worth clients and financial institutions across all areas of estates and trust law? Try saying that five times. What does it look like on a daily basis?

Raphael: My practice is actually really interesting in a sense that it's not a typical estates or wealth preservation practice. The reason why I try to use a broader term like wealth preservation [audio cuts out]  The other piece of the work that gets really around advising executors and corporate fiduciaries on the ... responsibility of duties. Sometimes helping them with administration if they need that guidance. It's really just explaining to fiduciaries what the obligations are and who they are working for. So fiduciaries usually are responsible for somebody else's either financial well-being or personal care and health care situations. So really working with them and explaining to them what they need to do, what the obligations are. A lot of asking names, you know; powers of attorney and things like that, and you don't quite know what that means until it's time to start really operating under those documents, and then it becomes really real that looking after your money or your own personal finances is difficult. Looking after somebody else's is kind of sometimes really challenging. Especially if that person is in some kind of situation where they depend on ..., can't do that themselves and they're relying on your judgment and the ... to look after their needs for them. So that to me, it's a really rewarding work. Then finally, the last big bucket which is really different from a lot of lawyers in my space do, is focus on advising financial institutions on how their products, their market products, impacted by citizen trust law issues, as well as regulations that impact that. So the example I will give is a lot of us, I'll use maybe the two of you as examples, you are starting your career, so you're probably hearing from a lot of your friends in financial services about, come do banking with me, or you're earning extra money come invest with me.

Phedely: All the time. All the time.

Raphael: Right? So you hear that and they tell you, we're going to be here on your journey. We're going to help you build, we're going to preserve it, we're going to protect it, make sure that when you're about to retire, 40, 50 years from now, that you're going to be fine. Now, that promise to you, it's a really great promise, but imagine over the course of your lifetime you go through a life circle, life journey's, that impact your finances and you're supposed to be there to guide you. Towards the end of your life, because we're all living longer, what's happening is we are likely to have mental health issues, as with age, so think of the epidemic of Alzheimer's disease and dementia and things like that. That impacts your ability to manage your money. But these institutions have promised you that they're going to help you and now there's expectations from the regulators that they're going to take active steps and protect your oldest and most vulnerable clients in those situations. So as an institution, that is across the country working, using thousands of employees, how do you meet that obligation? For a long time the view was, no, we're in the business of just doing banking or investments, and you put your money here. When you come here, we give it to you. But if you come and we give it to you and it's because you don't understand what you're doing, or that you deplete the money because somebody that you met online is telling you that they love and that they have an emergency, and all of sudden that little nest egg that you saved you've just sent it off to this person somewhere else, what is that institution's obligation to you? What should they be doing to help protect you? My role for a long time was working those institutions to help them understand that. At Gowling is to, again, help them build practices, products that contemplate these issues and market conduct that align protecting your clients. Finally, I'll wrap up by saying, demographic shifts in Canada means our wealthiest people are also our oldest people sometimes, and so this obligation and this liability for financial services is just increasing. It is an exciting space for me to be in because what I wanted to use the law, all the way from law school, was to impact people's lives and I find that this space allows me to do that.

Phedely: Yeah. 100%25. I think that's one of the great things about law is that regardless of your area of practice, I think one of the great things about law is it allows you to improve the stories of other people, which clearly you're doing in such a wide range of ways. Raphael, I'm also pretty curious to know, what do you love most about your work or your area of practice? And also, reversibly, what do you not like about your area of practice?

Raphael: It's really interesting because what I love and what I don't love coincide, and it's really not a function of not loving or liking something, it's a function of how do I do it better? How do I do it faster? What I love actually, I fell in love with this area by accident. I had articled at a big national firm in Toronto, and they hired me back, and then told me you're going to work in estates and trusts. I had never ... or done any work with them. Had no idea what I was about but as a first year associate I had an opportunity to be in a client meeting where we were talking about a really wealthy client, but an older client, who wanted to give the assets away, and how they could give it, and all these things that they cared about. I sat there and I thought of my experience in articling where I was doing doc reviews and due diligence and the best part of my deal was drafting a shareholders agreement that I never knew what happened to once it was gone. But the opposite was happening. I was talking to the client. I was hearing her story. I was able to connect with the client, just to understand who she was, what she cared about, how she thought about her family, the challenges and concerns she had about her grandkids and how she wanted to protect them. Sitting there, to me there was, this is a thing that I was meant to do. This is the kind of work that I was meant to do because it is really a practice that's focused on their individual needs. Even if one of my clients is an institution, it's really how those institutions work and product impact the life of the particular person and vulnerability. To me, that's what law is meant for. I think that's law at its highest ideal. So that's what I love about this work. The challenge of this work is the same thing because you get to know people so well and so intimately. You get to hear the hardest stories. I've had files where my law clerk on the file is sitting in my office crying. Not because the work is hard but because the work is so emotional. Because how can a child do this to their parents? How can somebody really take this person's entire life savings? So the thing I love about it, it's also the thing I found the hardest, because you have to be able to empathize and connect with people but also be detached so that you can actually say what's the kind of advice I think you're here. For the most part I ask financial institutions, so what is the scope of this institution's responsibility? How far can you go because you can't do everything for everybody, so to me that is both the greatest joy of this work and the biggest burden of this work.

Gladys: Sounds so much like you have that people connection, and that's drawn you to this type of work, but I'd like to go a little bit back before you were in that boardroom. We read that when you immigrated to Canada in 1993, you found yourself drawn to re-runs of television shows like Matlock, Perry Mason and LA Law.

Raphael: It's funny. I watched these shows and it was all a trial. It was all about, you know Matlock shows up with this great suit, and is in a trial, and posts the evidence of the last living. A surprise witness was announced was awesome to me. It's not exactly what law is about. But that's what attracted to me to it. The new Perry Mason, the newest Perry Mason, tried to go over from that so it wasn't really all about the courtroom dramatics. It was the work behind the scenes. How do you get to that resolve? It's not quite reality but it's a little closer to reality. That's why I watched every episode of it. I don't remember everything but I remember significant portions of it.

Gladys: I love that these shows still inspire you. That's awesome because I feel like this is the year. The past couple of years have been the year of revival so who knows? Maybe there'll be like a Matlock revival at some point.

Raphael: Don't do that to me because I actually have to work now.

Gladys: Well, on that note, how did you get acquainted and how did you connect with these shows?

Raphael: I probably just ran across it on TV as a 13, 14 year old, new to Canada. Didn't really have a lot of friends at the beginning so I spent a lot of time at home. I came from 3 TV channels to every channel there was so I watched a lot of TV. I read a lot but I also watched TV and I just found myself very attracted to law inspired shows. I didn't know that was going to lead me into a career of law but, ultimately when I was trying to decide what I meant to do with myself, those came back. It helped inform my decision that law was the right path for me. By the time I just thought they were really cool shows. I really liked how the lawyers were in it. I didn't actually take it deeper than it was until I got to a stage in my educational journey where I had to figure out what to do with myself. I thought, when it was the question of can I go to law school? Is law school an option for me? When of the things I had to think about was, was law the right thing for me, and really those shows reminded me that at least the interest was there. The inspiration was there. So then it became a question about ability and financing and other things.

Gladys: Yeah. I think what's interesting is when you talk about having that interest and just seeing that this was something that you could do. The interesting part about your show comment, I found that the main characters, like you said, were courtroom lawyers and they were litigators. I'm wondering when did your perspective of what a lawyer is shift to kind of like more solicitor's work?

Raphael: It's funny. Anyone who has heard me talk about my own journey will always hear me use the phrase 'happy accidents'. This is really one of those. In law school I sat beside somebody and my happy accident. She was somebody that knew a lot. Was from my family that was really steeped in the legal career and that was a Dean of a law school in ... human rights lawyer and professor. So I went to law school with two things, really, based on my shows I believe litigation was of the focus and, two, criminal law was a focus. I had done a criminology undergrad with a double major. The other piece was I'm an immigrant and so those were my animating sense of what law was about. It was I knew lawyer's helped immigration, because I had experienced it on my way to Canada, and I knew from these shows that most of these lawyers, LA Law is a little bit different, but Perry Mason and Matlock was all mostly about criminal law issues. I went to law school, still being animated by that thing, so my path was going to be either as a criminal litigator or some kind of immigration work. The ... I seen that happening was that when I met Diana Backhouse, was a really good friend. She and her family were generous to introduce me to more what law was and a profession in law could look like. That experience of meeting her, and her dad and her mom, really taking interest in me and telling me there's other parts of law. There's Bay Street, which I had no concept of. This was first year of law. I had no concept that Bay Street was a thing or even an option for me. Second, that there was this other kind of work around non-litigation work that could work. My first year ... course taught me that I was not meant to be a litigator. I didn't love the pan for it. I didn't love, and even regardless of how well I prepared, and I thought I prepared really well, when it came to just speaking I just couldn't deliver in the same way that I could in different kinds of ways. What I realized was I was just so nervous and so focused on each word I was about to say that I actually couldn't hold it together. The ... told me maybe litigation wasn't for me. Diana and her family where the happy accident that broadened my horizon of what law could be. Summer and articling confirmed that for me. My litigation rotation, I had the best mentorship in that rotation, but I felt I did the last amount of work that I liked.

Gladys: Right.

Raphael: So I realized very quickly that as a junior litigation practice we're going to be doing a lot of ... I guess evidence books or record books or whatever that thing is, timelines were always, you couldn't predict your experience because it depended on the court dates and a these things. So I started seeing a lot of that and I thought, that's not really quite my style and what I want to do. My corporate rotation and civil based rotation confirmed for me that I want to do that in a way that avoids the animosity and the challenge of dealing with the courts.

Gladys: Yeah, it sounds like you maybe aren't a big fan of the adversarial aspect of litigation. I can relate to that story a little bit because I did my articling with a strong advocacy type of rotation. Those timelines just stressed me out. You don't anticipate that type of how these types of requirement stress you out or how you will react to these types of requirements or this type of work. I found myself very happy and kind of working with the client and finding a solution and advocating in a totally different way, but in the way that still I found very satisfying, and I felt very good in doing that type of work.

Phedely: You know both you and Gladys sharing those parts of your stories and your journeys, it somewhat reminds that us in law it might not hit you in your first year of law school, it might not hit you in your second or third, or it might not even hit you in your first year's of practice, but there will be something that just speaks to you at a certain point. Or sometimes altogether maybe this practice or this profession is just not for you. But I do think if we keep at it we will find what speaks to us more naturally. For example, Gladys, her and I we had the chance to summer at Gowling. We al so articled together so I got to know her very well. Oftentimes we go back and forth about the things we enjoy, the things that we don't enjoy. For instance, she doesn't like deadlines and whatnot, but as a litigator myself I love that. I feel, okay, this is that clutch period. I feel like I'm Kobe Bryant, or as the power to Kobe Bryant, but I've got to get that across the line. But speaking of that, did it ever cross your mind that this might not be for you? This profession or the practice of law. Maybe as a result of the fact that you didn't specifically have lawyers in your circle or our family, or maybe the fact as well that may not be many people in the profession who may look like us, or who may hail from similar communities within the legal profession.

Raphael: It's an interesting question. I've never actually thought about it in that context. So once I was on my path to law, I never considered a lawyer is not for me. I found a love of joy in the practice of law. What I usually would tell people that are interested in law is to say, it's a demanding career. It is a challenging career. You have to be motivated by a real interest in it. I think I've always had that. Part of my identity is wrapped in myself as a lawyer. The question I've had isn't whether law was right for me. It's really about what space do I practice law, or, in what avenue do I use my legal skills?

Gladys: That's an interesting thing because do you think it's because you were used to maybe being the only person, sometimes, and so maybe you didn't look for people that necessarily looked like you when you were getting into these types of career choices?

Raphael: Yeah, I do and I also think it's actually important for, let me caveat this because my experience of Black, abled, straight male, who spent his life in Vancouver, is very different from other Black experiences in Canada and that informs my journey and my thinking about my place and profession and Canada, generally. I came to Canada at 13 and for the most part I saw myself as a very visitor, as a guest, because I was in it with that immigrant mentality. So I never claimed my spaces in the same way that other Black Canadians, or Black people, who happen to be in Canada in my field. I, for a long time, viewed myself as a guest in a space so I was happy to get whatever I got. The African mentality says that when you go to someone's house you're a guest and you're supposed to be accommodating. So even when things didn't work out for me the way that I expected it was, okay, I was in this person's house and yes, they've given me a glass of water but I want them to give me the best champagne, and that's okay. Even though I became a  Canadian citizen, and I've lived way more of life here, it took me a long time to get to a place where I was claiming my space, both as a Canadian and an equal member of this profession. So why you're saying yes to that point, that even when I was going through law school I didn't really see myself as somebody that deserved an equal space in the places I needed to be. So when I talk about the happy accident with a friend telling you what to do, I really believe it was happy accident where they were helping me. I didn't realize that when firms were saying no to me, because they didn't see me as somebody that could build a practice, that was somehow inferred to me. I didn't appreciate that until later in my career when I had a better sense of myself in Canada, and my place in this profession and that's what animates my work with CABL, the Canadian Association of Black Lawyers, for example. I think at the beginning of my career I struggled because I thought if I showed up, and ... ... put your head down, you're going to make waves. You're humble even when you deliver on something, you're humble about it, you don't brag. All those are things that I think have served me really well in other spaces. They didn't serve me well when I got to this profession. Actually in some places hurt me but I didn't expand that until I got to later in my career.

Phedely: It really hits close to home, Raphael. 100%25.

Raphael: Yeah, I'm happy to have that conversation because I think it's a conversation that we need to have within our community, for ourselves, because we have agency that sometimes we surrender and we need to figure out how to grab that agency back, and then how to amplify it because we bring a lot to the table when we do that, when we claim our agency.

Phedely: Raphael, would you have any advice for those who are maybe looking towards, or desire, to start claiming their spaces as you were mentioning because as a Black Haitian man that is something that I contend and struggle with at times too, particularly within the profession. So, would you have any advice as to how someone can get into doing that?

Raphael: I'll tell you what works for me. I think our journey's are different and our skill sets are different so you have to kind of tailor this to yourself. But for me, it's really being intentional about where I want to be. So I am very intentional about what I want my career to look like a year from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now. Two, I'm very intentional about the effort I put into my work and the expectant result I expect based on my efforts. If I deliver I'm very intentional about making sure that the right people understand that I delivered and that I claim whatever that offers.  What I've come to understand is you have to understand my value better than anybody else and so when I get to a point where my value is undermined in anyway, to have to figure out whether I have the ability to claim it where I am, or seek it elsewhere. What that has done for me, is yes I've moved a lot, but I've always moved progressively to more senior, more responsibility roles and more financial rewarding roles. Because what I've come to appreciate is to say to myself, what do I bring to the table that's unique about me, that makes the ... contributions to wherever I am. That, once I understand that and I deliver on that, whatever the opposite side of that is has to arrive and I have to claim that. If that doesn't arrive I don't let it go anywhere. I don't put my head down. I don't stay humble. I am not prideful or boasty but I'm very intentional about saying I delivered on this and this then obligates you to that. You can do all of that respectfully. I've done all of that respectfully. Maintain my relationships even when I've left places but I've always explained to the person I'm leaving why I'm leaving. So that it's not that I don't love the people that I didn't do good work but because I've come to appreciate my value and so if that value is not recognized then I'll go where it is. Being in private practice as a partner shapes it differently but I think all of us need to think about what's unique about us, what do we bring to the table, what can we deliver that improves fundamentally what the objective of this enterprise. So as a firm we need to produce, we need to bring in clients, we need to produce good work. So if you do that then the conversation is what is my space? What is my due reward for that work? I think we all have to be really confident about and really intentional about having conversations. First that sets out the boundaries of what that looks like, and what you have to meet, and when you meet that what that results in. I think that is something that I've had to learn that a lot. Even through CABL what I've learned is I have to talk about what CABL does a lot more. We have to amplify what we're doing because we need people to understand and appreciate the work so that they can use us effectively, and they come to us for things that we think we're really great at, and we can be at the right tables.

Gladys: So it's like taking kind of the idea of not feeling like you're entitled to something but really putting objective measures onto things that you deserve.

Raphael: So let me use a different phrase. I wouldn't say deserve. It's earned.

Gladys: Earned, yes.

Raphael: My view isn't that I deserve something because of who I am. If I've earned it then you want to be able to recognize it. Let me use another example because I think this is an important point. I used to apply for jobs and then they will hire you and they'll say, this is your salary. I've got the job, thank you so much. This might not be exactly what I was expecting but they will see how great I am and they'll give me a raise, they'll give me a promotion, blah, blah, blah. That didn't always work because you go there and not only do you deliver but you sometimes deliver more than is required of you because you want to show that you deserve more and then it's now a conversation around, yes you did that but can you repeat that? I, in the last few years of my career, have taken the approach that I'm going to ask for what I think I bring to the table, give in to the salary negotiation, and take the risk that I might lose it. I might lose the job because that's worth more to me and when you look like me I can't let people assume that I will take the minimum. It's what would you give somebody that is of equal quality and experience and ability. That's where I think we all have to start from. The challenge is I appreciate that when you are new in your career, starting out, the confidence is not there and I've always claimed that I've always had it, but I think we have to be intentional about understanding about more.

Gladys: I totally agree. I really like that you made that distinction between deserving and earning something because I think that really puts things in perspective as to your value. Exactly what you said like what you're brining to the table and so I think earning is exactly the right word for it. I kind of want to shift to your unique experiences and what you're bringing to the table. In looking into your background we saw that, like you mentioned, you've worked for financial institutions and you also have an MBA. Can you tell us a bit about that journey and what those types of experiences are bringing to your current practice?

Raphael: It's interesting. My journey to go do an MBA was actually, again, inspired by the same experience about getting into estates and trust work. After a year, almost a year at Blake's, I came to Vancouver to join a firm, Bull, Housser now part of Norton Rose, and I came because of another happy accident. I met a woman that was doing, in my mind, the premier work in this area, Carmen ... and really she took an interest in me and wanted to develop me, and a lot of hard work and really a lot of late nights, but I felt I got the best trust training and experience anyone could get in this space. About 3 or 4 years into it I came to appreciate that where my interest really in this area lied was understanding the business behind this. So in this space what happens is you have a really high-net-worth client, for example, that person has an investment advisor, has an accountant, has probably an insurance advisor, will sometimes have a family office advisor and then you have your lawyer. All those people serve, it's the ecosystem that supports that wealthy individual. For the lawyers, most of the time we're at the end of any planning process for that person because the accountant would do the tax structuring, the corporate organization for that person's business and everything else. An investment advisor's talking about how do we put the money in the market. What's the best market. Equities, bonds, whatever. Insurance advisor's talking about what's your liability at death? Do you need insurance to kind of govern that? Once all that planning is in place that's when the lawyer comes in to document all of it. It's really interesting work but I found I wanted to understand all the other pieces because it's really up front and, as a junior, what happened was I'd be at all of those meetings, I'd hear those things that were super interesting, but then the client I was working with said make your notes and go draft these and that's what I did at night. So as much as I loved it I thought I need to understand what those things do. So the MBA was, I had a polyscience criminology background, I didn't have any business background. I also wanted to get into the industry, because a lot of what I started to see was a lot of the people that made a lot of money in that industry were on the business side of it, not on the legal side of it. I wasn't a partner yet so to me, as an associate, I thought when I talk to an insurance advisor, their salary on the sale of insurance policies, first there's the premium, in some instances it's in the millions. Hundreds of thousands so I went, hmm, I went to law school for a long time and I'm not making anything like that insurance guy. When I talk to an investment advisor, and the fees they were earning and things like that, I spent lots of time in law school, spent a lot of money, I think I'm just as smart as this person but they're making more money than I am. Once I got to understand that I wanted to be in that industry more so I went and did the MBA to understand the business. To kind of get a business background. What it did, ironically, is emphasize my interest in being a lawyer more but now I had a new insight into what those people are doing, what a business looks like and why they were earning what they were earning. One of the things that I thought they had, a skill that I couldn't bring to the table, was I didn't have the ability to go to a client and say, let me convince you that you need 10 million dollar insurance policy. That's not a skill I have. So understanding the business got me to, okay that's not a skill I have. I could never deliver that but I could do these other things in support of that business. The other piece was it also gave me a sense of where the industry was going. I got a sense of Canada's demographic shift. To be coming older was going to impact my business in 2017 when I was going through that MBA. Another sense of what lawyers that work in that field, especially estate lawyers that work in that field, how we could support that work and where everyone was focused and where I thought there was opportunity. I knew a lot of financial institutions, accounting firms, law firms are all focused on how do we plan for the transition of wealth? No one's really thinking about the risk imbedded in that as people get older. To me, what that helped me shape was there could be a niche here for me. There could be an opportunity to do really interesting work. It allowed me to kind of craft my career and what my career could look like. I didn't think it would bring me back to private practice but I thought it would place me in a space where there'll always be a need for me in the financial institutions space. So that's kind of what the MBA did for me.

Gladys: It's fair to say that it kind of helped you build an expertise and think ahead.

Raphael: It did. It did. What it did is give me the ability to assist my own career with a different lens. In the spaces where I've worked, and maybe now when I work for financial institutions, my advice isn't the law says X. My advice is the law says X but for you these are going to be operational challenges that you're likely to face. There are going to be risk elements embedded in your products so this how I'd recommend you deal with these issues. So it gives me something different than what somebody that would have traditionally done estates law would do, which is the law says X. To me I think that's what makes me unique in this space. It makes me unique and it makes me give the ability to be able to work with individual clients on the planning side, because I've done all of that work and the experience I already have, but it also gives me the insight to which I advise financial institutions on their products and operational risks and things like that. So that to me is what's unique about me and we all have to have your why.  Even when you go to a client and say, hire me, you have to give them why you over somebody else.

Phedely: I think it's really rewarding for us to hear just about all of your experiences and your background, but what I've noticed at times and I've spoken with friends and colleagues about this, is we don't always have time to acknowledge the barriers that we're facing, or even the obstacles. We're so focused on the path ahead that we don't take the time to acknowledge just what we're facing. Are there any barriers or obstacles that you can recognize now, taking a moment to look back?

Raphael: It's one of the various highlight is I think people are too careful not to be perceived, especially when you are a Black face in that space that's not really reflective of you, I don't think it's intended to be hurtful to us, or to you, but it can have the effect of doing that. Most people don't give you the honest feedback. People don't sometimes, I don't know if it's fear that you're going to react badly or I'm going to look like I don't like you, and your the only Black lawyer in my office. I want to make sure that we have a good experience. But the benefit of not giving me that is that I can't say something that's wrong.

Phedely: Yeah.

Raphael: That to me is the biggest thing. It's really finding an environment where you have one or two people that can give you the benefit of the insight and not just you should do this, or you're great at this. You did this, you didn't find work you should figure out how to fix it.

Phedely: I resonate a lot with what you're saying, Raphael. That's the way to get better. That honest conversation and dialogue you have with your supervising lawyers.

Raphael: Yeah, then the other piece is this profession is an apprenticeship. So the traditional path of law you start off as an apprentice to somebody. What that means, I think that's still true today, is to succeed in this profession you need somebody to hold your hand at the beginning, to be able to say this is how you do this. This is how you do that. This is how you move this file across. You have a chance how to do it. That's related to the honest feedback piece but it is really, to me, the benefit of that was meeting Carmen in 2011 when I met her because I used to go home and joke with my girlfriend at the time that I work all day and I stressed basically months to get good work on top of a piece of paper. When I got that extra ... I ...  and it was because I would receive honest feedback about everything I drafted, everything I said, every meeting I was in I got feedback on it. Some of it great. Some of it not great but always helping me to improve. What that did was also showing me the ropes. How do you build a practice like this? How do you get clients engaged with you? There couldn't be a lot of great lawyers that do what you do and what I do. There's really well trained lawyers out there. The difference is how do you get clients to pick you? That's an important piece. What I realized was through that experience I was learning that. That's the greatest gift that I received. It was how do you work in a way that allows, whether you're in-house it's your business clients and your business partners, to want to work with you? In private practice it's your clients to pick you and referrals is for other lawyers who ... Gladys instead of Raphael. It is not for people like us who can't always rely on likeness to be the attraction. You have to think of how do I attract that work? Or how do I present my work and myself in a way that attracts that piece? To me, some people call that sponsorship. It is how you get somebody to be interested in you to send you work. To be interested in you to put you in front of their client. To be interested in you to refer somebody, a client, that they value to you. It is that piece and that is hard for all of us to find because, again, a lot of this gets worked through, you remind me of me 10 years ago. I'm going to take you and I'm going to make sure you are the best lawyer in this space you can be. But when you can't rely on that you need, and the benefit I think I received, was you need to understand how you attract that to you.

Gladys: You've talked to me personally, and in this podcast, about people that have championed you and you've referred to them as sponsors, more specifically, and I'm wondering whether you can expand a little bit more about all these champions and what that has meant for you now, and what it's meant for your career. It sounds like it's had a huge impact on the person and the career that you have now.

Raphael: I think champions have been fantastic. Champions are the people that speak about you when you're not in the room and who advocate for you when you can't advocate for yourself because sometimes you're not even aware of the opportunity. It is sometimes the relationships you form allows somebody to advocate for you in a way that you can see and you can be there for. People call it reputation. I think it's different from reputation. It is, I have a notable ... reputations but that doesn't mean I'm going to say, hey, you should pick that person over that. Right?

Gladys: Right.

Raphael: It is really being intentional about how do I form relationships and how do I attract people that are going to speak on my behalf in spaces that I either don't know exist or can't be there. We can't be everywhere at the same time. To me that's the value of having champions and sponsors. The challenge with that is in the spaces that we are in, sometimes champions come from likeness bias and all those ... It's harder for us to attract those things. We have to be intentional about that and we have to sometimes let our work speak for it, or we have to let other things that we care about that are interesting about us speak for that, but it's a struggle that we face and we should just, to me, I acknowledge that that's the case. Not everyone I meet is going to be immediately, Raphael's a good guy, let's do work with him.

Gladys: Right.

Raphael: But once I identified those champions, I invest in them. I think of, what do I need to do to make sure that they keep being interested in me? What if I have somebody that I, since I met her, I remember her birthday every year and I'm going to work for her for 10 years. I sent her an email note, nothing special, just an email to say Happy Birthday! Thinking of you. Hope you have a good day, because I know for the most part that if my name comes up that person has something positive to say about me. I have worked with general counsels where I know they invested, put my name forward for things that they didn't claim credit for. The ones I know that what I say is, what can I do to amplify what they are trying to achieve. So that they know that by investing in me it's a benefit to them. Sometimes people don't want anything from you and sometimes you can't give them anything. By just being intentional and thoughtful about that piece. By thinking about it from, what can you do for me? How can you mentor me but how I can do something, in whatever capacity I can, however little it is, to amplify you so that you're investment in me is paying off for you?

Gladys: I've actually never heard that perspective of like looping it back. You've really distinguished the difference between mentorship and sponsorship in a way that I think we're hearing a lot about nowadays. Mentorship has kind of like that guidance aspect, advice based on the experience and sponsorship is really like what are they saying when you're not in the room. Kind of that active type of promotion of your career and helping you out in that way, but what I didn't consider is what the role of the person being championed, or in other words the protegee, can do which is like that amplification that you were talking about. Sometimes I think it's hard for people to receive mentorship or sponsorship because they want to repay you in some way and they don't know how. I think you've given some really good examples on how to kind of keep the person in mind and show gratitude by amplifying them. I think that's really great.

Phedely: I really resonate with those concepts of sponsorship and just being championed. I remember when I was articling, I was having lunch with a partner from the advocacy department, and he shared a lot of interesting advice with me and a lot of pieces of wisdom. But something that he said to me, which always stuck with me even to this day, he said, Phedely, during your career you'll meet a lot of people who have a lot of things to share with you but you really have to cater to and look for the people who care about your career. Those who are personally invested in you, in your development and your growth. You're right, Raphael. Sometimes it's that we may connect on certain issues, or we may have certain hobbies or interests in common, but sometimes it's just the fact that that person wants to see you do well and you understand that that sometimes comes with honest and difficult conversations about the areas of improvement. But as long as they're invested in you, you can also be invested in them in return.

Raphael: Yeah. I think it's two things. The first thing is one of the things that we all have to be good at, and I have to be better at it, is when a door opens for me ask how it was opened. Sometimes you're pushing the door, you don't quite know there's someone behind it that will turn the knob for you, and if that person lets you in the question is, why? I try to do that. I didn't show up at Gowling by accident. There's a series of events that happened that landed me here. That involves other people. So just being more intentional about why things happen and not just saying, the door is opened so I walked through it. Great. That's good for me. Yes, we want to see the tale of our best friend pass it back. We've earned it. We have a right to it but it doesn't always mean that that seat is given. So when that seat shows up you need to understand better what happened. To me, I think we all are human. We all open in all of those spaces. You need to understand that piece. You need to understand how things get done. We're not operating in a colourful world and so we need to be intentional about understanding how things work and also giving back in recognition of the people that are in our corner, said to your point.

Gladys: That's very good advice. I think people don't really know to ask that question and I think you've helped a lot in kind of getting some clarification on how you got there so that you can, looping back to what you said, amplify the people who helped you turn that door. So yeah, I think we're nearing the end of the podcast. So, Phedely, I think you have the final question you wanted to ask.

Phedely: We've got so many questions for you but we appreciate that you've obviously got a lot to do so we don't want to take too, too much of your time. Gladys and I were just thinking to ourselves, and even in conversations with other people, just how much the legal profession might have changed over the years. I think as a final question I'm curious to know what advice would you give to your younger self entering the profession in 2022?

Raphael: I think what I would and try tell myself to be a little bit more confident in claiming my space. But that's easier said than done. I understand that but I think sometimes people saw things in me that I didn't always see. So really just saying that you have an equal right to be at the tables that you're at, that you earned those spots, and you should really work hard to claim them and to insist on them. That's one. Two is really taking the time to appreciate the moments. At the beginning your struggling. Everything feels like a struggle and so you don't always say, I am a kid from Ghana whose dad is living on a farm and whose mom barely speaks English, and I am now working in a big corporate firm in downtown Toronto and looking all fancy. I didn't quite spend enough time taking that in because I was way more worried about ..., ..., ....  that fire, right? It is appreciating the journey. That journey, it's a challenging journey that has lots of highs. I look back and I was telling this to ..., I've never felt, historically the hindsight was I've never been so important to anybody that I'm doing OCI. The interim interview pieces where you're going to dinner ... and I never really took that in at the time to be, again you know, all I knew I was fufu and put on that suit. I don't know. Fancy restaurant eating some food that I barely know how to pronounce.

Gladys: ... got to have some fufu though.

Phedely: Always.

Raphael: Always.

Phedely: Always.

Raphael: I'm not knocking fufu. I love my food. Well, actually, now I can't eat too much of it. I'm getting too big. But what I meant was the experience, the uniqueness of the experience I was having. How different it was from somebody, my reality and my context. Now when I've come back to Vancouver and one of the first lunches I had with a friend, he invited me to the Vancouver Club which is a private club here, as I was walking through the door I was like, the 13 year old Raphael, the 15 year old, even the 20 year old Raphael, never would have seen this space as a space I just walk into. Just taking those moments, I appreciate it. It doesn't mean that's my everyday spot but what I mean is that it allows me to take into context the challenges that come along the way. In the grand scheme of things, this has been a great journey. It continues to be a fantastic journey and those moments of struggle are worth it and it's just all past. It's just that I've just never been, I think a lot of us that end up in this profession, we're not good at backwards. We're focused on what's next, what's next? Or that I haven't slept for 16 hours and I have a deal closing. You see what I'm doing?

Gladys: Yeah.

Raphael: You need to kind of sometimes appreciate the journey that we're on.

Gladys: I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's important that we take a moment sometimes to appreciate the journey, how far we've come. I think overall just appreciating the beauty in the struggle, sometimes. I really want to thank you for sitting with us today and for this rewarding conversation. I wish we could continue talking for hours because I know I've learned a tremendous amount just in the hour that we've had to speak with you. The importance of these discussions, it's to advance the dialogue on important issues and, to me, to also highlight certain aspects that are often omitted from the record. We often focus on the awards and the recognition and an individual station in life, but perhaps what is worth focusing on sometimes are all of the right choices that you made to be where you are today. So, for our listeners, if you ever have any questions, comments or ideas for topics and guests, please look us up at www.gowlingwlg.com/diversonomics and get in touch with us. We would love to hear from you.

Gladys: Also, make sure to check out the show notes for this episode of diversonomics.com. Thank you for listening and make sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple podcast or Spotify and subscribe so that you never have to miss an episode.

Raphael: Thank you so much for having me, guys. This was awesome. I hope to be hearing about your journeys along the way because I think you guys are on a great path and incredible success. Thank you so much for having me.

Gladys: I'm sure you will be part of that journey, Raphael. We'll make sure.

Raphael: I look forward to being a spectator and cheering you guys on but I'm very happy to support anyway I can.

Phedely: Thank you.