The Space: Leadership and law - episode seven

Emma Dennis: Welcome to The Space, where we break down barriers and perceptions about a career in law by talking to the talented people of Gowling WLG.

I am Emma Dennis, diversity, inclusion and wellbeing senior manager at Gowling WLG, so join me as we get to dive under the surface and understand the diverse experiences and perspectives of our people; how they have got to where they are and what they wish they had known.

Today, we are here with Ali Richards, a partner in the firm's Commercial, IT and Outsourcing team, to hear more about her journey into law, what her role at Gowling WLG is really like, and how important allyship is.

So firstly, hi Ali. Thank you for being here today.

Alison Richards: Hi Emma.

Emma: You joined the firm, and correct me if I am wrong, I think back in 2018? As a principal associate?

Ali: Sounds about right, yes.

Emma: And you were promoted to Partner in 2022?

Ali: Yes.

Emma: I mentioned, as I just introduced you, you work in our Commercial, IT and Outsourcing team. I just wondered if you could tell us a lit tle bit more about the type of work that you do?

Ali: Yeah, sure. So, CITO, short for the Commercial, IT, which I will not keep going on about. So, we do a huge range of commercial work and within that department, we deal with a lot of public sector work. My specialism is dealing with work for the Government sector, but also other public and other bodies that are ruled by public sector law.

So that might include, for example, housing associations, the Birmingham 2022 Games and other bodies that have to behave like they are public sector bodies.

Emma: I bet it was interesting working on things for the Games?

Ali: Yeah, it was a really interesting time. We had quite a number of the team seconded out to actually work directly with the legal team at the Games, so they were in lots of the day-to-day running. And then I stayed in the office, but we were asked to support ad hoc contracts and various procurement activity just as resilience work, because as you can imagine, it was so busy and the sheer volume of work that had to be delivered in a relatively small space of time.

Emma: Did you manage to take advantage of going to see any of the sports?

Ali: Yeah, as typical as it was, I was away for most of it, but I did manage to go to the closing ceremony, which was just awesome and what a great event for Birmingham, for the firm. The legacy continues doesn't it?

Emma: Jealous, I am jealous you got to see Ozzy, Ozzy Osbourne.

Ali: Yeah, Ozzy Osborne, the problem is, a lot of people do not actually know who that is these days, but yeah he was great.

Emma: Looking back now, so as I mentioned you were promoted to partner in 2022. How has your day-to-day work changed since then?

Ali: A huge amount. More than I probably expected. There is probably less time to do the fee earning side of things. Much more emphasis on making sure our clients are happy, going out winning work, providing training which, of course, I have always done, but the focus, the responsibility is quite different. The buck stops with me and with the partners in the team as well to make sure that we are working together, my focus is on the public sector, much of the private sector is of interest to my clients.

So, making sure that we are sharing learning. There is quite a lot of change going on in Government at the moment, we were heavily involved in COVID, thankfully that is rippling away, although going to new phases of lessons learned from that.

We have got the new procurement rules, so we are constantly having to track that and keep clients up to date as to what is going on. So, there is constant change and that bridge between the public and the private sector is really important, for consistency and so that both markets are aware of what is going on.

Emma: And before you became a Partner, I am just interested whether you had any preconceptions about what that would be like? That have either been confirmed, or even debunked. Were there any things that you thought it would be like that actually the reality is either very different or the same?

Ali: That is a really difficult question. I think the big surprise to me came from not realising how difficult it was going to be to maintain the level of fee earning as well as all of the managerial, the business planning, responsibilities, that is a bit of a naive misconception that I would be able to continue doing the same level, that is not possible. So, I tend to be more on the supervisory side than actually rolling my sleeves up and being involved with the day-to-day transactions, if that makes sense.

Emma: Yeah, it does. And what do you enjoy most about your role now?

Ali: There are a few things that I really enjoy. One is influence. I have always been quite active in our D&I agenda and having a voice really pleases me. I really, really enjoy the fact that if I come up with ideas, I know they are being listened, they have always been listened to, but I feel like I am in a position to influence in a bit of a stronger way than I was before. And equally, I am there to police what we are doing in the team and if I do not feel like something is going quite right, or we are interviewing, or we are running initiatives for the EmbRACE network, I can say (a) advertise in our team, I can pull people up if I think things are not quite being done properly, and I can encourage people to get involved as well and I hope, I feel like I have got a voice and I have got a platform to make a difference in that respect.

Emma: And that encouragement, I think, it really important. Especially from senior leaders across the firm to be encouraging people to get involved.

Ali: Yeah, and there has been a couple of other, I was involved in the Black Intern workshops, I was involved in making sure that we recruited the right people and it is great seeing them coming through. We have just had a cohort of trainees, or perspective trainees coming through, so that was good getting them involved and I have also had the opportunity now to become a trainee principal so we have got the new cohort just started this week and so I will be on one of the trainee's journeys with them for the next two years, which is really exciting too.

Emma: Brilliant. I do want to touch a bit more on that allyship role that you have, but we will come back to that a little bit later.

I guess now, if we look back in time a little bit to when you were just trying to decide what you wanted to do with your life, was a career in law always on the cards?

Ali: No, it could not have been further. No, I left school young at age, I was 16 when I left school and I went to art college.

Emma: A bit different.

Ali: I went to do design and textiles and I did that for a year and there came a point in time where drawing the same thing everyday really was not going to fulfil me and that it was going to be very difficult to get a job and I remember my dad at the time saying "Don't think you're leaving college unless you've got a job to go to " and I applied for a job in the local court, so a county court job as a court administrator and got the job and an avid fan of LALaw at the time, that is my little confession.

Emma: LA Law has come up a lot in this podcast series.

[laughs]

Ali: Genuinely that is what I thought, I am having that job, that looks like really what I want to do. Loved it and I had some fantastic opportunities to work both in the county court as court clerk and also with the court administrators office which helped with organising the judges, where they went to sit, what cases they would try etc and then through that I got to know a lot of the local solicitors and one of them said to me "Come and do a training contract for us". I got a job with the local authority, a district council and trained with them as a legal executive. Working full-time and then studying evenings to get my legal execs.

Emma: God, that must have been a lot doing the full-time work and how did you fit it all in?

Ali: Yeah, I was young.

Emma: You have got energy.

[laughs]

Ali: Yeah, still had energy in those days. It was good though and it was a good environment to learn in, again lots of exposure to projects that really make a difference locally, you can see buildings going up and I was also with the district council, as a litigator, so it is a transition from working for the court to do civil litigation, so lots of debt recovery and repossessions. That type of work.

Emma: So, you mentioned that you came the legal executive route to qualification. How did that differ?

Ali: The traditional route is you leave school with great A Levels, you will go to university, you will study and you will either do a conversion course, because you have not studied law as your principal or you will have studied law and then you go on to do a training contract and you qualify and get to work straight in the field, assuming everything goes to plan.

With a legal execs, traditionally its taken up, and was, because again, the legal execs route has modernised some what, but when I followed the route, it was ideal for people that could not go, for whatever reason, to college full-time. Very few places offered it as a full-time course, so it was always a part-time course, and I was fortunate that there was a college local to where I lived that ran the course. What that entailed was doing full modules, two years of broad introduction to law and then for years three and four you specialised in four subjects. The other thing you then had to do was, you would work, you did not do a training contract as such, but you had to continue to work within a legal role to become a fellow of the Institute of Legal Execs, so all in all, that is six years before you became a fellow.

Emma: God, so it is a lot. You said you were working with a local authority, was it with the local authority that you did the legal exec?

Ali: Yeah, so I continued to work at the local authority for many years after that and then there came a life moment where I needed to move up to the Midlands and I knew in the back of my mind that there was this unspoken prejudice between the roles of a legal exec versus a solicitor. Again, I am happy to say that things are changing, it has become way more recognised route, a genuine route to the law now. It was not then and I knew that if I was trying to get into a role that was equal to the point I had got a hugely well established role in Kent where I was based and I was not convinced I would be able to come on the same salary or the same level of seniority coming to a completely new area and so that was the drive to think I am not taking a step back – I have worked too hard – I will just prove to them I can just do the same as them and I decided to do my solicitor's exams as well, which I also then did part-time and that was worse somehow because that was weekends, so yes weekend study for a further four years and working at the same time, so that was fun. I have to say I am done with studying.

Emma: I think you have probably done enough.

Ali: I feel like I have done enough for now.

Emma: So, when did you move from working in local authority? What prompted that change?

Ali: So, I had met my partner and he lived in the Midlands, I lived down in Kent, so we needed to - after five years of travelling and long-distance relationships - we had to become sensible and behave like adults, so I moved to the Midlands. That was in 2006/2007 and I had not quite finished my studying at that point. In fact, I qualified as a solicitor and I was still working in the public sector so I worked in three different local authorities so I qualified in 2010.

Emma: It seems like there was a lot of hard work and effort that went into qualifying as a solicitor. Were there any challenges that you came across along the way – anything that sticks out that was tough to get through?

Ali: They were life challenges rather than the academic side because in amongst the move and in amongst the part-time study, I had my daughter. I think that was probably the biggest challenge. There was a point in time that I said, "Right stop, I'll put off my two last exams until after I have had my daughter". That was the biggest challenge and the biggest like "Oh God I really, really don't want to break the momentum". That was probably the hardest time. Then of course baby brain, having to pick up your books again and then finish the course. But I did it and that was all good.

Emma: Brilliant. So, I think that brings us nicely to a little break. In part two, we will be talking more about Ali's journey to partnership and the importance of allyship.

[music]

Emma: So welcome back to part two. So, Ali, we are going to kick off with just some fun questions, just quick fire questions just to get to know you a little bit more. What was your first job?

Ali: Working in Tesco at a checkout, yes Saturday job in Tesco.

Emma: Did you get to do all the beep, beep?

Ali: Well no, it was not beep, beep, it was like a calculator on the tills back then.

Emma: Did you have the card readers?

Ali: Yes, that was the paper in between.

Emma: Yes, that was what it was like with my first job, it was the paper card things. What is your favourite season?

Ali: Winter.

Emma: I like Winter – Autumn/Winter.

Ali: Winter. Log fires. Crisp January mornings.

Emma: Where did you grow up?

Ali: In Ashford, Kent.

Emma: What time do you usually wake up in the morning?

Ali: 6.30 in the morning.

Emma: This is the big one. Is your bed made right now?

Ali: Yes.

Emma: Everybody. It's been my question throughout the whole series, we had one person who had not made their bed, which made me feel much better about my shoddy life skills. Favourite movie?

Ali: Flashdance.

Emma: Ooh, I like that choice. What is your dream holiday destination?

Ali: Mauritius.

Emma: Nice. What it your hidden talent?

Ali: Probably waterskiing. I have not done it for a while now but that was my passion for a long time.

Emma: Wow, that is amazing. Right, we have got some either/or questions now for you. Cats or dogs?

Ali: Cats.

Emma: Would you rather fly or have superstrength?

Ali: Fly.

Emma: Are you more of an introvert or an extrovert?

Ali: Introvert.

Emma: Night out or a night in?

Ali: A night out would be nice.

[laughs]

Emma: Just any night! Would you rather travel to the past or to the future?

Ali: Future.

Emma: One last one. What do you think people misunderstand about you?

Ali: I think it is a general thing. People do not know what lies beneath, they do not know that people have got a life outside of work.

Emma: Yes, and that is very true for lots of people. You see the work persona of somebody, and you do not know everything that is going on.

Ali: Yes, you work and attain this, so much are going on in people's lives, they have got young kids, elderly parents, stress, dealing with all sorts of things and people do not stop and think, it is not just about the job.

Emma: Yes, it is everything else as well.

[music]

Emma: So, I wanted to ask you some more questions around your career. We have talked about your qualification route. Once you had qualified, did you always know that you wanted partnership?

Ali: No, and there were times - even colleagues I work with today - where I might have wanted it I thought actually I just do not actually want this at all and I have been through a few times where I have said "It's just not for me, don't want it" and then there is a little drive. I work in two-year plans, that has worked for me over all of my career. What is my plan for the next two years, not the next five years, the next two years? Get there and then reevaluate and that is what I have done.

Emma: What was making you think at times no, I do not want that?

Ali: I think it is that feeling where you cannot work any harder than you are in that moment. I work on and I have worked on major projects, I mean huge Government projects, that require you to just submerse yourself in for months and months on end, really stressful, very rewarding working on big projects, but that feeling that actually you cannot give anymore of yourself because you are working flat out.

Emma: What would you say to anybody that is, at any stage in their career, but earlier in their career at the moment, who is looking at partnership and saying, "I don't think this is for me". What would your advice be?

Ali: I always say "Never say never" first and foremost. I think the two/three-year plan is sensible – breaking it down into chunks, whether you are a trainee, whether you are an associate, actually I think you should be focusing on getting to the next goal more than a goal that might be ten years away or five years away, wherever you are in your career.

Emma: I think you are right. I think it makes it more achievable as well when you are looking at something that actually I can do x, y and z.

Ali: It does not mean losing sight of the dream. I think just breaking it down into manageable, achievable so you can sit back, pat yourself on the back when you get to the smaller milestones and think well what is going right for me, what is not going so w ell and working just slowly, steadily…

Emma: … and get there. What do you think people should be thinking more about earlier on in their careers that will help them get to that partnership goal eventually?

Ali: Networking is massive, and it is not networking necessarily with clients, although that is really important, but actually knowing the people around you especially the firm, like Gowling, where we have such an amazing diverse skillset. There is so many different people within our organisation that you can learn from – our Innovation team. I think getting to know those people and understanding how the organisation works will stand you in just such good stead, way better than when you come in, as somebody more senior, you have got to learn that, and you are not quite sure where you are going. I think if you are starting as a junior, as a trainee, get to know people, really understand how to find information - I think that is my biggest tip.

Emma: Yes, I do agree. It is really important. You touched on this a little bit earlier, but you have been really involved with EmbRACE, our race and ethnicity network, at the firm. What made you get involved with them?

Ali: I think equal treatment. I have chosen EmbRACE but all of the D&I groups that we have got at Gowling, they are all important, but I cannot be everything to everyone. So why EmbRACE? I think it probably stems from a childhood because I was born in Zimbabwe. My mum was brought up in what was Rhodesia back then and grew up being quite conscious of that colonial type background and being not party to, but being surrounded by conversations going on that I was really not comfortable with and I cannot bear racism or people being treated differently and, I think, that is why EmbRACE is the one that I chose but, I think, equally I am a woman working in what was traditionally a man's environment and that is equally important to me. I think above all else, if I do not think something is fair, I think we should be talking about it - even if I am wrong but I will not ever admit that I am so - but yes, I think it is what really attracted me to Gowling because I know that it is a really, really strong area. It is taken very seriously here.

Emma: With the work that you have been doing with EmbRACE and the support you have been showing as an ally to that network, why do you think being a proactive ally is so important?

Ali: An ally is something that anybody in the firm can do. It means that if somebody wants to talk because they feel in any shape or form that things are not quite right or they have been put in a position that makes them uncomfortable, they can just come and talk to me. They can come and talk to me or talk to anybody that is an ally and we can either speak up for them or help them to speak up. Even if an individual has spoken to me, it may be that I am not saying so and so or I am representing somebody, I am just bringing an issue to the attention of somebody, that is not right and I think that is really important that there is somebody there that says "I don't mind speaking up" which is why I am here, that is what keeps me coming to work every day.

Emma: I wanted to ask you to know what you know now, what advice would you give to your, let us say, 16/18-year-old self?

Ali: Where do I start? And would my 16-year-old daughter listen to me! Would I have done anything different? I do not know that I would have. I certainly did not have the money to go to university, that was never an option for me, and I had left school early as well so, I think, I have done pretty well actually.

Emma: I would second that completely. I have got one last question for you Ali, what is the best thing that has happened to you over the last week – it can be work, it can be personal?

Ali: Over the last week? Well, I have just returned from Crete which was pretty nice and did not have my daughter, so seeing my daughter again was really nice as she was not with us.

Emma: Feels like a good answer.

Ali: It is probably the nicest thing that has happened.

Emma: Having been away and then got to see your daughter, that is fantastic.

I just want to say a huge thanks to Ali for joining us today and for sharing her story and insights.

This brings us to the end of this series in The Space so thank you all for listening over the last few weeks and we will be back later this year with a new series.

I hope you all have a wonderful week and remember we all have the power to make a difference.