Peter: Okay. We're now just at 1:05 and a half so let me formally get our proceedings under the way. So for those of you just have joined in the last couple of minutes my name's Peter Lukasiewicz. I'm the CEO of Gowling WLG, Canada, and on behalf of the firm I want to thank you for joining us today on International Day of Pink. Let me say to you, as I was saying to the panel before we started, we're just absolutely blown away but not surprised, when you see the prominence of our panelists, by the response we've received to this webinar. We have over 900 registrants. It's an astronomical figure for a webinar. So thank you, thank you all of you, for joining. The goal of International Day of Pink is to create a more diverse and inclusive world. Our aim in holding this webinar is to contribute to that goal. Over the next 90 minutes you're going to hear insights from an accomplished group of LGBTQ+ individuals and allies from our firm, from our good clients, the Toronto-Dominion Bank, and CPPIB, and from the Canadian film world. Together our panelists will offer their perspectives on the challenges faced, and the progress made, by LGBTQ+ people in the workplace and in broader society. Our panelists are going to tell us how they've contributed to the fight against bullying and discrimination. They'll share with us how they're working towards achieving equality and acceptance for all, and as they do so I hope that we will learn how we can be part of these efforts, and be inspired to join them in this important work to create inclusive workplaces. Now, as you know, we are an international law firm with offices around the world and as such our webinar panelists are usually populated with leaders of the business community like Al and Katie. So you'll understand when I say we are particularly jazzed, pardon the pun, to be joined by Aisling and Chase, who are the co-directors of the new and acclaimed documentary, 'No Ordinary Man'. We'll hear from Aisling and Chase on how their film explores the life of Billy Tipton, a popular jazz musician of the 50's, 60's and 70's. Tipton's identity as a transgender man was not revealed to anyone, including his family, until after his death in 1989. If you haven't seen the film, the registration confirmation that you got from us includes in it a link to the Inside Out Film Festival, and if you go to that link you will get complimentary access to stream the film until a week Sunday, the 25th of April. If you haven't seen it I urge you to do that. Finally, it gives me enormous pride to announce that today's webinar is the first event to be hosted by Open House Canada. Our firms recently established LGBTQ+ Affinity Network. Open House is a safe space for our people of all gender identities and sexual orientations to come together as a welcoming and supportive community. Its mandate includes raising awareness and understanding of LGBTQ+ issues, increasing the recruitment, retention and visibility of LGBTQ+ colleagues and creating network and career development opportunities. We will be working with Open House to promote the principles of equity, diversity and inclusion and to attack stereotypes and stigma across our firm and in the communities in which we work. Our Open House Chair, Warren Cass, who is a senior corporate law associated practicing in our Toronto office, isn't on our panel. A little later on in our discussion we'll be joined by a number of other Open House members. We've got a lot to discuss so let me just, once again, thank you for being here today in support of International Day of Pink. Let's continue to work together towards equality and acceptance for the LGBTQ+ community in our workplaces, in Canada and around the world. Thank you and now let me turn it over to our moderator, Usman Sheikh. Usman?
Usman: Okay. Thanks a lot, Peter. My name is Usman Sheikh. I'm a partner at Gowlings. I'm in our Toronto office. I head up our securities litigation group. I also head up our Blockchain and Smart Contract group and to get your CPD credits there's going to be a skills test on Blockchain at the end of this webinar. I'm just joking. There is not. I'm totally thrilled and have to say totally honoured to be joined here today by this amazing, fantastic group and I am stunned. Just like Peter said, probably not surprised though, by the number of people who have signed up today to hear this webinar and attend. It's likely because of the Katie Daniels', the Al Ramsay's, the other Open House members that we have but equally our co-directors, Aisling and Chase who produced this amazingly wonderful film on the life of Billy Tipton which has, frankly, been such an eye-opener, so we're really honoured to have you and all of you panelists here today. Perhaps just before jumping into the Q&A session with our panelists, just a few words on what Gowlings has been up to on the LGBTQI+ front. As Peter has mentioned we recently launched and created Open House, which is really an affinity group for LGBTQI+ employees and professionals and, as Peter mentioned as well, Warren, one of our colleagues and senior associate in our Toronto office leads that group. We also have a national partnership with the Canadian Center for Gender and Sexual Diversity to provide free legal support for trans and non-binary individuals seeking to change the gender markers on their official IDs. We've also in the past hosted the Center's Gala at our firm, when there was such a thing that could happen, and we have many other initiatives that are planned. So that being said we're always striving to do more. We're always striving to learn more and really this session here today is in furtherance of that effort. So, with that I wanted to introduce our panelists and I think what we decided to do is that I'm going to introduce everyone, because I want to make sure we have enough time for the Q&As, and so I'll just introduce people in the order that I see them. So we have Katie Daniels. She is Managing Director and head of Compliance at CPPIB, or the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board. We also have Al Ramsay, who really requires no introduction. It seems like the world knows him. He is AVP, or Associate Vice President for Customer Strategy and Sales Development, Wealth and Business Banking at TD Bank. Then we have Aisling Chin-Yee and also Chase Joynt, who are the co-directors for 'No Ordinary Man'. Then we have several internal panelists as well. We have David Pearson, he's the head of D&I for Gowlings in our UK office. We also have Rebecca Bromwich, who is the head of D&I, or D&I Manager, for Gowlings Canada and we have Warren Cass who is a senior associate in our Toronto office, and as we had mentioned, the head of Open House. So I have a bunch of questions. I should say, those in the audience, if you do have questions feel free to include them within the chat and what we do is we have a number of people who are monitoring the questions and we're going to try to get to that towards the end of the session. But if I can sort of selfishly take the privilege of the first question and just ask about the International Day of Pink. Really this day is an international anti-bullying event that is held every April and it started really with two high school students, that saw another student who was wearing pink, being bullied at their high school in Nova Scotia. Those two individuals, as a show of support, decided to get everyone at the school really to wear pink as an effort to support that individual. So maybe my first question is what is this day mean to you? What does International Day of Pink mean to you? Maybe, Al, if I could start off with you.
Al: Thank you, Usman, and first of all, congratulations on the kickstart, I guess, of Open House. It's awesome and I'm so excited and privileged to be here for one of your first meetings, I guess. So, particularly, of course you get to wear pink. It's fabulous. That's why.
Usman: Multiple layers of pink.
Al: Layers, exactly, and on the one day we wear pink. That's a bad joke I can look past. But really, truly, it means a lot to me though, personally and professionally. Now I wouldn't say personally, you know at TD Bank I head up our LGBTQ2+ customer strategy in addition to our Black customer strategy. So to me it is a very important day for us to signal to the organization, and to employees, that this is a part of our culture and this is something that we use in leverage important moments throughout the year to amplify and to send that strong message to our employees that it is a diverse and inclusive culture. So it's important for us to do that. Leadership matters so that's why we should do that. I would say leadership matter. Visibility matters, which is also important, and as a ... mentor said, visibility is also liberating. Liberates you to say who you are to the world so there's no shame in that. Personally, you may know my story if you follow me on Facebook or on Instagram, or any social media platform by the way, as a quality young man growing up in Jamaica. Think about that environment. I wish I had an International Day of Pink to celebrate. To look and see people that look like me. Leaders, role models to say that it gets better or gives me hope. What I saw, in reverse, were our community, we were shunned, we were deemed as deplorable and in some case killed. I saw that and witness that first hand in society. So that's why to me it is very important to have these days like this, important markers, to signal to the world that we are proud of who we are. Also, Toronto and Canada is a very inclusive country, however, we have work to do. So many days in my career on Bay Street, before I joined TD Bank, I was bullied in the workplace. The question is not about me being bullied as a young intern was it gave or embolden that individual to actually do that in that environment. The environment was a very hostile or very toxic environment. So that's why it's important and what saved me also was because I knew of an LGBT leader role model who I knew that was safe refuge for me, that I could have gone to, and had a conversation and it changed my life. My career was suffering. I changed jobs and I would say, finally, because of the work I do and as a public person in this space, I will tell you that notes and emails and messages I get worldwide, of individuals reaching out to me and said, "Thank you for being visible. Thank you for giving me hope. Thank you for being who you are because all I want to do in my hostile environment is feel valued and to feel a sense of belonging." So it's a very important day. Visibility matters. Leadership matters but it cannot start and stop here. We have more work to do.
Usman: Terrific. David?
David: Thank you and congrats to Open House, to my siblings over there in Canada, and greetings from the UK. Sunny UK here. My ... in him and I'm a white cis male. I'm bisexual. My motto, by the way, is love is the answer and I kind of have a personal mission which is to unlock the leadership part of LGBT+ people. To me International Day of Pink means two key things. It's being aware of the impact of internalized homophobia and it's being aware of the power of our lives. My personal story is that I'm aware I have many privileges, but those visible things mask something deeper for me, that had a huge impact on my life. Where I grew up and when I grew up, for example wearing pink, was dangerous. It's not something I could have done. I would have been homophobically bullied for wearing pink. So I avoided it like the plague. It was a dangerous thing for me to do. I was bullied at school and at work. These things can help to contribute to create internalized homophobia which isn't something I became aware of until much later in life. I didn't even know what that was. I had no idea what internalized homophobia was. I had a massive case of it. It took an amazing lesbian counsellor to work with me and make me understand what it was and unlock that. So I think the issue that I found in my personal experiences, we tend to replicate in our environments later in life the things that we experienced personally when we are younger, and that's why experiences at school can have such a profound impact on us. When I first came out, firstly as gay and later as bi, I actually then started to experience a form of bullying within the LGBT community. For example, people intrusively questioning me. Are you sure you're bi? Aren't you actually gay? Are you confused? If you think about it, I'm not very good at math's but I did some sums on the back of the invite, and I worked out I think on average most people spend up to about 17 and a half thousand hours of their life in some form of schooling. That's one of the most important training grounds where we learn to be an adult and what it feels like and looks like to be in workplaces when we go and join them later in life. So that's why for me there's this massive role for allies on this International Day of Pink. Allies are in the majority in most workplaces and human nature is just that we tend to pay more attention to and respect the opinions of people who are similar to us. So when we have someone who is heterosexual stand up against bullying, if you're a heterosexual person you probably pay more attention to that. So allies can kind of weaponize that heteronormative privilege. So before I kind of end I just want to address one elephant in the room on this day, in this session, which is that question that you might be thinking. What gives a straight person the right to advocate for LGBT+ people? What gives someone who isn't LGBT+ the right to speak out on behalf of our community? Well, I as member of the LGBT+ community want to make a clear statement that I welcome allies in. I welcome their support on this day. I welcome them wearing pink to support this community and show that they don't tolerate bullying and the phobia, bi phobia or trans phobia. So if you are an ally in this session now, you can take it from me, a personal invitation that you are invited in. Your support is appreciated and we want you here. I'll close by illustrating that when I was at work some years back, about 10 years ago, I was with a colleague who's a straight cis gendered male, he overheard some discussion and some talk in our office that he called out as being inappropriate. He said, "Hey guys. That's homophobic. We don't speak like that." Now, I was the member of the LGBT community, and I didn't speak up but he did. For me that reinforces that massive power of an ally to be there to support this community. So welcome you all and thank you.
Usman: Good. So you all have the David Pearson VIP ticket to support. That's terrific. One thing, David, that you had mentioned was just about the experience of International Day of Pink that it really started at school but bullying and discrimination against LGBTQI professionals or individuals, frankly, is not something that is compliant to this school and so I was wondering if maybe a few of you can speak to how that bullying or discrimination may persist throughout one's life and really what forms it may take. Is it just simply overt? Or is it some other form? Maybe, Katie, if you wanted to take that question.
Katie: Thanks, Usman. Welcome everyone. I am thrilled to be here today. Super important day and just a moment to pause and reflect on why inclusion is so important. I'm going to ground my comments on bullying with the concept of inclusion. Because we saw when everybody after this webinar goes and watches Chase and Aisling's film, which I commend 110%, you'll see the importance of feeling like you're not part of the community in which you're actually existing. Billy's story is of really not being able to present himself, or his truth, for his entire life as he created a very rich and long life. That happens day one, that sense of do I belong or do I not belong, whenever anybody walks into a workplace, when they join a new group, when they switch departments, that moment of introduction, and whether you're going to introduce yourself, happens over and over and over again. I think hopefully we've seen a pretty strong reduction in overt homophobic and transphobic comments. I suspect there's still lots of thoughtless transphobic comments that get made and said every single day. It's the subtle step in the workplace that I think, personally, does constitute bullying. Who you want on a team. Who you want to staff with something. If you keep going back to the well of the people who are like you, who don't you make feel uncomfortable, who you think there's some magical unspoken language that makes it easier to work with them, you may think that you're just getting the job done but I would argue that you are actually bullying by inclusion. Every time you aren't thoughtful about how you build your team or who's included you are taking away opportunities for people. So 3, 4, 5 years down the road, when it's time for them to be assessed for whatever their next level of accomplishment is within your firm or when they start to move to grow their career, excluding people is going to cause them real economic harm. It also means that they've spent years not feeling part of the team. I'm sure TD and Gowlings really focuses a lot on the team. The teams got to be reflective of everybody who's in the entire department or the entire firm and it's not going to be all the same type of people. So you need to make sure that your team really feels welcome. The importance of allies interestingly, and I'm going to flip over to another speaker, we have a number of, we call them employee resource groups, within our inclusion and diversity framework and the two leaders, or allies, for the out group are both straight white men over 50. They've signed up for the same reason David said. Because it shouldn't be both the burden for feeling excluded plus the burden of speaking up and saying this is wrong. It can't fall on the same people over and over again. So allies, when you see somebody who's sitting in the corner not talking about their weekend or not part of the next project, it's time for you to reach out and bring them in.
Usman: Warren?
Warren: Hi. Thank you for your comments. Welcome everybody. Thank you for joining us. I think that, just to focus for a moment on the bullying that people face as kids, I think it's important to recognize that some of the experiences that, and I can only speak for my personal position, my personal experience and I realize that I am a gay cis gendered white man, and I have certain elements of privilege that have protected me from a kind of bullying that some of my colleagues who have different identities and might have faced and certainly do face, but when you're a kid and somebody hurls a gay, homophobic epitaph at you, or a transphobic epitaph at you, even if they don't know the truth about who you are, that hits you really, really deeply. It creates a sort of feeling of shame that you can't really vocalize. I think that the world has come a long way. We certainly have come to, at least in Toronto and in Canada, we've had great strides towards creating workplaces and public spaces where those kinds of things aren't tolerated quite the same way they were. But every now and again you'll come across, even in the workplace, a more casual kind of homophobia. Homophobic jokes or people who you encounter who seem to think that being gay or being trans is something that you do as opposed to something that you are and sort of betray that sort of sensibility behind it. You may be confronted with, again, an inability to know exactly how to address that or a feeling of shame again that is brought up and brought back from your subconscious. It's definitely a lasting legacy that we really need to collectively root out, and recognize that people are who they are, and they have the identities that they have and create space for that. That to be something that they get to be proud about and get to be open about without having to endure these feelings and having that psychological trauma of childhood raised in the workplace. Our world has come really far and yet even today, if you're walking through the gay village or on Yonge Street, which is one of the main drags of Toronto, people will drive by and heckle you. They will hurl homophobic epitaphs from the windows of cars. So no matter how far you come there's always that risk. There's always that feeling and then sometimes, even as a society all the advances we've made, prove not to universal. I think there's still significant work that we can do to root out bullying.
Usman: That's great. So let me maybe shift the conversation to our co-directors. Chase, Aisling, your new film, 'No Ordinary Man', looks at the life of a jazz musician, Billy Tipton who performed in era were really there was no transgender representation whatsoever. What I was wondering is if you can perhaps just give the audience, particularly those who have not had a chance yet to take a look at the film, what the movie is about, how it came to be and, if you can perhaps maybe speak to in particular the bullying that Billy endured during his life and also, it appears, long after his death.
Aisling: Sure. Hi. Thanks for having us. I'm Aisling, one of the co-directors. So the film, as expressed, is about Billy Tipton who was a jazz musician who came up on the 40's and 50's and 60's and grew up in Oklahoma and kind of toured as a ... musician and married and settled down and adopted three kids in Spokane, Washington. After his death in 1989 it was outed to the media that he was a transgender man then the media kind of took hold of his story and really turned into something that it wasn't. Our interest in making this film really sprung from finding out Billy was. It started as a seed of an idea at Parabola Films, the production company in Montreal, and then myself, Amos Mac, the co-writer and Chase, we took all of the things that we wanted to express in our ideas and the different topics we wanted to explore. That Billy story became a very, very wonderful and vibrant vehicle to open up and to tell his biographical story from a trans perspective. So that's kind of the general sort of idea around what we were trying to do, and also in terms of how we were able to kind of make our very diverse and LGBTQ+ team robust and meaningful positions, really came with us having to challenge and push the institutions that were financing the film to another level and to really make them understand why storytelling and why financial resources need to be put into the hands and towards the projects that are about people telling stories about themselves.
Usman: Right.
Chase: Just to add some thoughts. I will say that in the many years it took to make this film I don't think we imagined ourselves to be in a legal webinar of 500 plus people. So we're open to these new opportunities and thanks for the invitation. The question of bullying is so interesting when you think about Tipton because as far as we know Tipton wasn't bullied when he was alive. He was living stealth. He was not recognized as a trans man and it was in fact not being visible was allowing him to move in spaces unrecognized as different. So often visibility ... social change that being visible is better but I think it's also really important to recognize that the underbelly of visibility is vulnerability. When people know how to recognize difference they learn how to discriminate against it. So it's really the media who is responsible for bullying and his family in the wake of his death. The media and the law are signals for how to treat people and it's really interesting to reckon with Tipton's legacy and its relationship to bullying as one that's happening by and through a more contemporary vantage point. That it wasn't necessarily true in his lived reality or his lived experience.
Usman: Right. Let's maybe turn to the question of maybe organizations, how can they address discrimination or the bullying that has been described at an organization level. We have a lot of people, it looks like over 600 people who are now on this webinar, a lot of them are looking for some recommendations, and maybe there is no science to this, and I know David you have strong views on that, but maybe, Al, if I can turn to you. What are some things that organizations can do, perhaps, to address discrimination or bullying in the organization?
Al: That's a great question and there's not one, obviously, magic bullet to do this. This has to be strategic thinking in terms of diversity and inclusion and as a bigger conversation. Bullying and discrimination is one part of exactly what you're trying to accomplish with diversity and inclusion. It has to be business imperative. It has to be a part of your leadership framework, your business strategy. What we see at TD Bank, it's part of our DNA, and actually we've said it's a non-negotiable business practice and it is that ... engagement at TD Bank and it's embedded in our guiding principles and leadership framework. It's not an HR issue only and that's where leaders come in, which is very important, and we have to recognize this so it starts from the top. Me seeing Peter on this call, and your leaders, yourself on this call, is very important. Talk about visibility but it has to start from the top. What I said in my first question was it can't start and stop there. Right? If we think about it even, we're talking bullying here in the context of LGBTQ2+, it spreads across every diversity and inclusion group. Think about it, right? A woman, Black, what's going on right now, the heightened conversation in the Black community, Indigenous people, visible minorities, person with disabilities, it is a bigger and broader conversation. But also what I said in terms of leadership matters but it can't start and stop there, allyship, a lot of us on the call already talked about allyship. Even on this call right now, employees on this call watching it, seeing us, panelists having a conversation. Peter, your leaders here, but at the end of the day when they go back into their workplaces, they want to see that signal from their managers also.
Usman: Hmhmm.
Al: Think about that, right? They want to see their managers lead by example in the same fashion. Unfortunately, or fortunately in a way, where a lot of times we talk around and don't include allies, especially, in our cis gender in body, straight white male, who make up a lot of organization middle management. We talk around them and we don't really engage them in a conversation, understanding what we're trying to accomplish with inclusiveness in the workplace or diversity and inclusion, that may be part of this. We also know that, and I'm prime example, when I was being bullied in the workplace I was not performing to the best of my abilities. Think about that, right? It was not until I felt a sense of belonging that I was able to spread my wings and see that. Have hope that I could reach my full potential. So a couple things I would say, leadership matters, lead by example, education and training is important. I saw one of your leadership principles about raising awareness. That is definitely important. You have to send that strong signal to the organization. This is important. Okay? But then now you move from that diversity of thought now to inclusion. Put it in practice. So now you're going to say, how do we now mobilize Gowlings now to say this is part of our DNA. Policies, procedures, you drill down and you also now, I'm so heartened to see that you have your Open House, now you get employees now to be part of this mix to say now, and I will say use your employees, not as employers group only, but as a business resource group. You're employees will give you information in how you should help shape your culture. Get them involved. We call something at the TD Bank as dual accountability and responsibility. You have to keep your organization risk accountable. Here's what you need to do as an organization to create an inclusive environment where everyone can achieve their full potential. But then, on the flip side, employees now need to be part of that to work together. Someone talked about majority and I will pass it off quickly. I'm very passionate about this subject, obviously, it's my day job. If you think about it, inclusion starts, allyship starts, if every group I just mentioned, women, 50 odd percent of the population were considered a diverse group. LGBTQ+, 10% population or so. Persons with disabilities, Indigenous peoples, visible minority. If we all came together as each other's allies, not only for anti-Black racism and Asian racism, LGBTQ2+, etcetera. If we all came together as each other's ally we make up the majority in most cases. We have full control in that with our voice of unity. Then how do we now use that power together to impact change. Systemic change. So that is where we have a conversation with three elements. The head, the top, right? Then the middle, and don't laugh, then the bottom of the organization coming together and working together to create change. So that would be my advice in what we use at the TD Bank as a framework structure.
Usman: Yeah, a lot of comments that you made really resonate with me. Chase said, look, I never expected to have our film in a legal forum. I never expected to be leading a panel on LGBT myself. So I do think, as you're saying Al, it is important for us as leaders to stand and be counted and I am gay. I'm South Asian. I'm Muslim. I'm from Shabogamo, Quebec. I'm diverse on many fronts and if I can even affect one individual at our firm who could see a reflection of themselves I feel that's a life worth living. What are your thoughts, Rebecca, on this? What say you?
Rebecca: I think it's wonderful to bring together popular culture and law. When I was doing my PhD, I talked to Chase about this previously, I studied the work of Serrat, who's a political scientist, who talked about legality as lived. The law has an existence in our lives and through those micro processes so we can have policies on a corporate level. We can have policies worldwide. We can have laws that protect people. We can have human rights laws. We can have charter rights in Canada but if we, in a day to day experience of going to work is that you get bullied, and not necessarily by a person who's in a position of power over you but if you hear negative remarks, then the legality that the law as lived is something very different. So it's really important, I think, for us as lawyers, those of watching who are lawyers and work in the formal processes of law, to look at the critical legal studies approach at how popular culture, the way the media, for example, attacked Billy Tipton, is relevant to the existence of law and the existence of legal practice. So on an organizational level there is a saying that culture eats policy for breakfast. I didn't make it up but I think it's a really good saying in terms of we can have great policies and large organizations in a contemporary space, like our firm which is a multi-national law firm, like big business banks, corporations, often have pretty good policies. That doesn't mean they can't be improved. We can always improve upon. But at the same time we can have those policies that can exist over there but also needs to be changed on a day to day level of micro processes. You may have heard the term micro aggressions. Micro processes that moment to moment. So when we are working in terms of organizational change we have to be working on the ways that culture, which is that total accumulation of those micro processes, impact the way people experience in life. So in terms of organization life we need to look at policy, and that doesn't mean policies are perfect, but as lawyers we're kind of good at that. We're better at looking at policy and we always want to amend the policy. We should do that. There's a time for that and a space for that. But in terms of holding two ideas in your head at the same time, the idea of ruling culture and doing small things mindfully, and working with representation and being mindful of what we speak and what we talk about, what we discuss, what we explore, I think that that can be very beneficial. So there is an incredible relevance of a documentary film to the work that we do as lawyers. I also wanted to say, picking up on something Al said, the notion of intersectionality. Right? Today is not about me because I'm an ally. I am a heterosexual woman. I'm a single mom and I'm dealing with COVID but I'm a heterosexual woman. The issue today is how can I step back and support what's really going on for the people who are foregrounded and it's important to note intersectionality as well, and that's what I wanted to pick up on Al had said, the idea that together those of us who are identified in a variety of different ways, as diverse, whether as women or racialized or as members of the LGBTQ+ community, these are really significant things to be looking at. But intersectionality is significant. So for example, one thing to think about today, Indigenous laws are a really important part of practice, are spiritual people. The fact that we are in Canada, always as settler peoples, walking on the lands of Indigenous people and how those things are connected together. So when we're talking about gender identity and sexual orientation it's also relevant to talk about Indigeneity. So to look at those things together. So in terms of organizational take home I'm giving you three. One, culture and policy have to both be worked on. Two, allyship is in important and three, we have to look at intersectionality about how things connect with one another.
Usman: Okay. In the interest of time maybe Katie and David, maybe Katie first, just briefly if you have thoughts on that particular question. What can organizations do to address bullying or discrimination for LGBTQ individuals?
Katie: Al and Rebecca had principles, a tactic. So the first is very simple. If you've got a panel, if you've got a leadership opportunity that your organization has, if you look at it and it does not look diverse and it does not reflect the full range of people who are in your organization, you change it up. If literally nothing, and if there's people from CPPIB who are on, nothing makes the top of my head blow off more than panels that are monochromatic. People see leaders constantly and if the only leaders they see are white cis men they will never see another leader in their imagination. If you're on a panel, if you have the opportunity, change it up. Second, and Aisling, you reminded me. I didn't even say this yesterday. So I'm Head of Compliance. It's my job to make people follow rules. People are designed to avoid rules. That's where I think is how do I get people to do the right thing. So we've just done a compliance video, and we did it in a cartoon instead of a policy, about how to avoid illegal insider trading. I made the lead couple that opens and closes it, they're bi-racial lesbian couple, then also this stuff happens all the way around the world and I paused for about 2 minutes. I'm like, "Should I do this? Everybody's going to be like 'Argh, that's Katie again.'" I was like, "No. They should do that. Why should it be a straight couple? Why should it be a white couple?" But of course I made the person do the wrong thing. The white person who's like going and doing all this stuff. But I never even thought about the fact it's because my organization gave me the opportunity to make the video, that I made a video that looked like my life.
Usman: Right.
Katie: So, mix it up.
Usman: David, go ahead.
David: Look, it's impossible for me to tell someone in this session what they should do, specifically, because every organization's circumstances and culture is different. But I think there are two pre-conditions for organizations to address bullying and discrimination. One is they need to be curious and the other is they need to be committed to change. Using love and empathy as guides to power that curiosity and commitment can be useful. For me, being curious means understanding what the actual problem is. What is going on in your organization? To do that you've got to understand both the impact on individuals. So what is the lived experience of people in the workplace but also the combined effects which show up in the data. This has a lot to do with belonging for me and who gets to decide who belongs. The behaviour of individuals is what creates inclusion or exclusion and the structures and processes in an organization creating inclusion or exclusion. Being committed to change means that addressing bullying and discrimination and creating inclusion is seen as a skill. Like all skills it needs to be learnt and it needs to be practiced. Addressing bullying in an organization by getting people to wear a rainbow lanyard, for example, or a unicorn badge is kind of like walking around with a tennis racquet and saying you are now a tennis player. You have to go through the education, the skill and you have to then put into practice that skill in order to make change.
Usman: So, Aisling, Chase, would Billy's experience as a transgender man be different today? How could we support him in present day scenario? What are your thoughts on that?
Chase: It's such an interesting question because when Billy was gigging, he was alive at a time where the categories that we all inhabit were literally being made, so we can look to research in the medical industry complex and doctors who are saying, "What is this? Who is that? What do we call this?" It's really a moment of reckoning. So one of the things that our film does is claims Tipton as part of a trans historical legacy while recognizing time and time again that we might be wrong. We don't actually know how to Tipton identified and in some ways it doesn't matter because what our film is doing is trying to ask a different set of questions. Which is what does it mean to look back and claim someone in this way for contemporary trans culture makers? I think to imagine a world where we don't actually know and we can think about the way in which that translates to all of our lives in these rooms. It's going to sound like a bumper sticker but the thing that we learned from Tipton is to believe people when they tell you who they are. Tipton was a father, was a husband, was a musician and lived an incredibly vibrant and successful life. We can believe him and trust him on his own terms.
Usman: Aisling, do you have anything else to add to that?
Aisling: Just to kind of continue on with this conversation about inclusion and how division is so often used as a tactic itself to marginalize people further and we see that in government. We see that in lots of different ways and especially what's happening right now in the US, in particular policy and law, specifically against transgender youth. So as culture makers, or as people who work in the legal system or in a corporate setting, to be able to stand up for the rights of people that are marginalized and also to be able to sort of syphon those resources or syphon opportunity and access to these types of experiences so that there is a more holistic way that we understand different people's experiences. In terms of Billy, like Chase said, he lived a very successful life. The people who worked with him had nothing but respect for him. His children loved him. He had lots of wives and people who also think only fondly of their experience with him. There's such a celebration to be had in that and so we wanted to uphold that but obviously to layer in how the complexity of his life and through the different decades that he came up in. I think it's a combination of exclusion actively fighting against divisive tactics and also a celebration of the diversity of experience.
Usman: So in one of the panel pre-calls that we had, Chase, you had said something, I believe it was you who said that in order to have meaningful change one has to have hard and uncomfortable conversations. Wanted to know if you can just maybe elaborate on that because I think that that was an important point that many people in the audience would want to hear.
Chase: Sure, absolutely. So you know Aisling and I, I'll use 'we' statements, we really identify as collaborative beasts and really building a story, not only together, but with the communities most impacted by our storytelling strategies. So that means being really explicit about the ways in which power operates, not only in our interpersonal relationships but in our film. So we can think about structurally when Sarah Spring, our producer, stopped the machine of production to say, "We need to fundraise more money because we need to pay trans creatives robustly to be making a project like this and participating in a project like this." Or whether it's we're in the editing room and thinking critically about how patriarchy and white supremacy are reasons why Tipton was able to live in and move out of these social and political spaces in a way that I've summarized in a previous response on this panel. Get explicit. Get specific and try to work with that thoughtfully from the start.
Usman: Good. What I wanted to do, if I can now, is just maybe welcome in some of the members of our Open House Canada group. So they can go ahead and turn on their screens. These are professionals or employees from all of our various different offices. Whether it's Ottawa, Calgary, Toronto and elsewhere. Montreal. So welcome. One individual that I wanted to perhaps start off with to give a little bit of a sense of her experience, if you don't mind Catherine, if I can pick on you for a little bit. So Catherine is a law clerk and she's been with our firm for a few years. Catherine, I was wondering if you can maybe give a sense as to the then and now, how you've seen the field of law sort of evolve on these issues over time. So perhaps if I could turn it over to you.
Catherine: Sure. I've been in the profession for 43 years. At the firm for about 24 and I can relay a couple of experiences that I've had in the past and how things have changed for me. I've worked at a firm in the early 80's and I was having a discussion with a colleague about the Pride Parade, which was really just a day then, and they were saying there was no need for a Pride Parade. You don't need to march down Church Street or Yonge Street proclaiming that you're gay. It's just not required. To be very honest, at the time, I agreed. Things were just so different and I didn't really feel the need to do so until I went to my first Pride in 1986. It was such a great feeling of hugs and everybody saying "Happy Pride!" and a feeling and a sense of belonging and being okay. It validated me somehow. Then coming out of the ... Community Church service out of Maple Leaf Gardens and protestors being there but somehow that was easier to handle because the majority of the people that day had accepted me for who I was. Now, years later, working at a firm that I don't have that conversation with somebody saying they don't understand a need for a Pride Parade, and in fact, the firm participating and marching alongside you at those events. I also worked at another firm when I wasn't really out in the early 80's and developed a whole new language of speaking about what I did on the weekend by terms of 'they' and not allowing myself to be my true authentic self by saying I was dating lesbians at the time, women. It was a whole new language that I then unlearned later at subsequent law firms where it was okay to talk about these things. So I've seen a lot of change, a lot of acceptance, not to say that it's not as warranted. People have all demonstrated but there's still some definite homophobia out there. People who don't understand but I have seen a huge change, and a good one, a positive one and just can hope for it to continue.
Usman: That's terrific, and if I didn't mention it, Catherine is a law clerk in our Toronto office. So, Tyler, you're just really starting off your career. If I can maybe ask you, and I should say, Tyler McRobbie is an associate in our Calgary office, what advice would you give to allies around you who may be too uncomfortable to ask certain questions or maybe unaware of certain issues?
Tyler: First of all, thank you for having me. I think that's a great question. I think it's really important. I think a lot of really insightful things have been said, in terms of the role that allies can and should play, and I've been hearing a lot of a theme developing, if I can call it that, with respect to the idea that allies should be, and are certainly welcome to be, playing a proactive role in this entire process and everything we've been talking about today. I think we heard that from David and Katie, especially, the idea that allies should be playing a proactive role. I think that opens some opportunities for potential, I don't want to call it pitfalls, but there are ways in which allies have a role to play but might not necessarily know what exactly that looks like. I think that might also be the case as well within the LGBTQ community. I, for example, identify as gay but the LGBTQ community is obviously an umbrella of multiple forms of sexual diversity and gender based diversity. Not all of which I necessarily associate with. There's multiple forms, I think, of allyship both within the LGBTQ2+ community as well as without the LGBTQ2+ community. I think when it comes to the allies who are participating in this call and those who work at firms like Gowlings and its clients and things like that, all you have to know at the end of the day, I think, is that if you're coming into this process with the true intentions and the spirit of wanting to improve and make yourself better, as well as the world around you, it's hard to do wrong if the intention is there. That's the starting point, and that's the most important thing, because that is what's appreciated from people like me who seek out those allies and who need those allies because there's power in numbers and there's power in the sort of authority that comes from people signing up for this concept. If I had any sort of specific advice I think it's kind of on a person by person basis, but I think it's just a question of reaching out and just having that conversation and coming from a place of empathy. I'm extremely blessed at Gowlings, I would say. It's been an incredibly fruitful experience for me and my time here in terms of what that allyship looks like. It's just the friends that you make. It's the associations and those commonalities that you find with people who might not be LGBTQ, probably aren't in fact, but who can still empathize with you in a lot of the same ways. I think it just starts with that conversation, and that it intends to actually do something, and to make your life better and your lived experience better and to sort of take that step towards expanding that to the LGBTQ community, if you maybe haven't already. I think allyship is incredibly important on the basis that our numbers are limited. I think Al pointed out earlier if you put us all together when it comes to Indigenous, women, all of the other diverse subsets, there's power in numbers and I think that needs to be explored further, but it all starts with that first conversation and open mind towards the empathy that you need to come into that conversation with.
David: Just on that. I did some sum work there. If you put all of the LGBT+ people in the world together we would constitute about the fourth largest country. So there's some power for you.
Al: Usman, if I can jump in quickly on the role of allyship, which is really important. I think that uncomfortable conversation with allyship, we've seen it, we've talked about it, you can't just say your an ally and just sit back and announce to the world, "I'm an ally". There's work to be done if you want to be an ally.
Usman: Right.
Al: You're going to move from this performative to intentional allyship and that's where the uncomfortable conversation comes in. Asking an ally, "So, what have you done to help?" And that's important. That's all we've been asking ourselves now to move that conversation. We have this analogy and you have work for allies to do and there's work for us to do in working together with allies and creating an inclusive environment for them to work. It starts with the head and that's what we're doing here. We're understanding. The principle we've talked about. Diversity, inclusion, the knowledge base then we move to the heart. The empathy. To empathize, to live experience. That's work for the allies now. To interact. Do the work in the process with us being your guide also. Then use your hands and feet and act. Because that's the only way we're going to move and talk about systemic and not just one and done. If one really wants to stem up systemic discrimination, that is work we need to do together. People always say, "You know what? It's a big initiative and how can we all work together?" and I would say, "It's every individual. Don't look only at your leaders. Of course leadership matters but you are a leader in your own right." If you think about it, in most cases an ally is a person with some element of privilege. Use that privilege you have. Use that access you have. Use that platform you have in your circle and that's how you make change. If everyone does that, incrementally, that's how we make impactable change going forward.
Usman: Okay. Terrific. So I know, Louis-Rene, you have a question. Maybe if you could just introduce yourself and then go ahead and ask your question.
Louis-Rene: Yeah. So I'm Louis from Montreal office. I'm a ... services clerk. Well it's for US ... question ask any lawyer online, I would like to know if being LGBT nowadays, still closes doors in the law field?
Usman: So, Warren, do you want to go first or would you like me to go first?
Louis-Rene: You can go. He can answer again the question.
Usman: Okay. I see you opening your mouth so go ahead if you want to or I can go.
Warren: I can't be anything other than what I am, and who I am, so I have found that being out and being my genuine and true self has allowed me to become a part of every legal environment that I have wanted to be a part of. I think this kind of goes back to some of the comments that were made earlier by Rebecca about, not only rules and policies, but culture and the importance of a culture in a workplace. The importance not only of finding opportunities that are not expressly shutdown or made unavailable to you because of your identify, but also a place where you feel that you can shine, and you can perform and you can succeed and you don't have this nagging thought in the back of your head about of am I being my true self? What happens here if I show my true self and you're not constantly confronted with contradictory messages, comments that make you feel uncomfortable or ashamed, or watching comments that are made about other people or other groups that kind of set off the same sort sensors and feelings in you. So while I can't comment on every single legal environment that there is, I am happy to say that the legal environments that I find myself in are terrific, and I have many friends that have found themselves in legal environments that are terrific for them as well. I think there are a lot of places we can succeed and I think that by raising the excellence of those environments through our participation, we can show other environments that aren't quite there yet, the importance of changing the way that they are.
Usman: To speak from my own perspective I unfortunately have seen the fact that somebody has come out close doors. In rare exceptions where it is overt and I say that because let's not try to put shade glass over our eyes as to what's happening. There are circumstances where individuals will continue to harbour prejudice and they may not say it overtly but opportunities will not be given because an individual is from the LGBTQ community. Unfortunately that still does occur. Sometimes it occurs not only overtly, it will occur indirectly because a person may not see a reflection of themselves in that individual. So it's sort of maybe what Katie was saying at the beginning, that maybe it was you Katie who was saying this, is that people are naturally inclined to go to those who they're more familiar with. Sometimes because of that doors are closed, indirectly, not because the person means to do it but it's this, we've tried to train individuals at this firm. We have unconscious bias training so that you can identify that. So for example, if I say to somebody, let's go for drinks. Well, what if the individual is Muslim and they don't drink. Then they're not feeling included. They may not want to come because there's drinking involved. The same thing with the LGBTQ community, it occurs as well. There's also sort of a minimization of opportunities because, again I think it's maybe what Katie had said, is that sometimes when you are offering your true authentic self it's almost like a cancer that feeds on yourself. Because you can't be free. You can't be open. You can't be authentic. That, whether you like it or not, may involve affecting your work quality that it then leads to less work because you are suffering inside. What we've been trying to do at our firm as well is use LGBT-ness, sort of what Al was saying, also as an opportunity. So creating those networks and allowing all of you from Open House, and elsewhere, to be able to interact with professionals outside, and to be able to showcase yourselves through webinars like this will lead to opportunities. So we're trying to allow that aspect of ours to also help grow our books, etcetera, etcetera. We're trying to also use it in a positive way and tried to minimize those circumstances where opportunities are closed to individuals. I hope that offers some answer. Maybe we can go to Donald Keddy, if you don't mind introducing yourself and asking your question.
Donald: I'm Donald. I work with the HR team in our Ottawa office. My question has to do with micro aggressions and how can individuals appropriately address them in the workplace?
Usman: Does anybody want to take that question? Yup, Katie, go ahead.
Katie: Thanks for your question, Donald, because it gave me an opportunity to talk about what I forgot. Which is everybody's own individual responsibility to speak up for themselves. When we talked about what allies can do, what I forgot to say is that if you are feeling uncomfortable, or if you're feeling excluded, you need to raise your hand and call people on it and find the courage to do it because 9 times out of 10 it's somebody being thoughtless as opposed as to being overtly nasty. So, micro aggressions happen all the time. I've been out for 25 years. I've been married for 20 years. I have kids. I have pictures of my family in my office. I work with lawyers and finance people who are super smart, who see my office, who will literally 2 years ago ask me about my husband and why my kids look different. So you just have to call it in the moment and find the courage not to put up with any BS. So if somebody's making you feel that, tell them.
Al: I would just jump in and say you know what? If you create an inclusive environment to get people to understand that they can actually speak up without any repercussion, that's important, as a base line, I would say. We're Canadians. We don't like confrontation. We skirt around. Let's be honest here. So what we've done at TD, we try to be very tactical. So one of our senior executive team, Nora Campbell actually, you should know her, she said she had this technique that was 'ouch'. She heard something and in the quintessential Canadian way she will say, "Ouch". That opened a conversation up. What do you mean by that? It's like Coaching 101. People know when someone is malicious intent, really malicious, then you can really go hard at that person in terms of that's not right. But then there's these micro aggressions and what I do, and I hear it all the time as a Black gay man, especially on the Black side trust me, I get it all the time, yeah as a Black man. I always asked ... intent of understanding. Tell me more. What do you mean by that when you say that? And let's have that conversation. Let's unearth the root cause here and that's how I go about and do training, actually, I use the ouch technique a lot and people look at me and say, "What's that?" Okay, let's have a conversation or I'll genuinely come from a good place and say maybe that person doesn't know or understand that's a micro aggression, it's so unconscious, I will ask what do you mean by that? Then we'll have a conversation.
David: Usman, I'll just add something about what Al said. I love the question, Donald, because to me it goes to the heart of this issue around what we're talking about earlier and what Chase was talking about around the difficult conversations. The insidious thing about micro aggressions is often the person doing them is not aware that they're doing them. Often the recipient isn't even aware that they are the subject of them and that they're being affected by them. It's referred to as a death by thousand cuts sometimes. The small little signals and I certainly know that's been the case for me. It's kind of like the frog in the water, isn't it? The temperature's being turned up slowly. Frog isn't aware. After a while you realize I just don't feel like I belong in this workplace but I can't put my finger on a single incident. I think everyone loves the rainbows and unicorns bit, that's fun, but when you have a colleague or a student in tears because they've experienced bullying or homophobia or biphobia or transphobia that's no longer so much fun. I really kind of endorse what Al's saying about, I don't want to comment on Canadian politeness, but Canada isn't the only polite country in the world and certainly I know that our workplace often feels nice. We have nice conversations with each other. We avoid the difficult topics. This can just mean those topics are not addressed and therefore the work that needs to be done doesn't get done, and sadly, it can create a sense of complacency amongst our leadership where they start thinking I haven't heard anyone complain so it everything must be okay. It's, of course, no good leader should ever do and, Peter, of course you wouldn't do that would you?
Usman: He's silent right now but I'm going to tell you he's probably saying no. He better be saying no. I'm going to take a few questions from the audience.
Peter: No!
<laughter>
Usman: I'm going to take a few questions from the audience, if you don't mind, just in the interest of time. So one question is, just picking up on something that Katie had said. So thinking about Katie's comment about bullying by exclusion, even inadvertent exclusion, is it ever appropriate to ask about someone's sexual identity to avoid excluding someone and having that person assume that it was because of their identity? So does anybody want to respond to that?
Katie: Can you repeat it, Usman?
Usman: So I guess what they're basically asking is that is it ever appropriate to ask somebody about their sexual identity to avoid excluding that individual or maybe picking up on your comment about how somebody may be quiet in a room and you're not sure why, maybe is it appropriate at any circumstance to ask as to what the reason is and maybe identify that issue, particularly?
Katie: I've been a people manager for a long time and I think you would focus on having a conversation first and, outside the group, really interested to hear what Chase and other people may have to say on it.
Al: In our case, again, you have to create this culture that it's okay to ask that question first of all. At TD what we started doing, we started to sending those signals which are important, so on everyone's email address, for example, we have an option to put your pronouns on your address, for example. We have these training to, as best practices, to don't assume anyone's identity and we ask. Again, it's a journey and a culture says it's okay for me and no one at the bank would feel, I would say, threatened if I asked how do you identify. It's a norm now in our organization. That's on our journey. I would say would you have ask maybe 10 years ago would I be comfortable as a people manager to say that? Absolutely not. In that case I would say, maybe case by case, in terms of the culture you have created to date.
Usman: Right. Sorry, Chase, did you want to say something to that?
Chase: Oh! I was just going to say that I think in all of these conversations about support and allyship we fall into a trap when we think that you can read or see queerness and trans-ness. It produces a lot of assumptions about who's in the room or outside of the room. I think as a base line maybe to that question is never assuming in the room means that you're always thinking in multiples and always thinking against the kind of choices you could be making in a workplace that would exclude some people who identify in certain ways. I think that I encounter a lot of questions and conversations in public, and more often than you would probably imagine, people say to me, "Well, I've never met a transperson before." or, "You're the first transperson I've ever met." I love telling people that they're wrong. Without question they are totally wrong. So what does it mean that people think that they live in a world where they've never encountered someone before. I thin that's an interesting place to spend some time. If you find yourself there.
Usman: Okay. So, let me push on to the next question. One individual is wondering if the panel can address the less explicit ways that queerphobia pops up in the workplace. For example, maybe typical dress codes make non-adherence to certain gender norms. Sorry, I'm just trying to follow the question, but maybe if you can just speak to those less explicit ways that queerphobia pops up in the workplace. Could it pop up in the context of the way one dresses, etcetera, etcetera. Maybe if people can speak to examples of that. Go ahead, David.
David: I love the question because I think forcing us to think through the consequences of what we take for granted is part of that journey of curiosity and as Chase says, not making assumptions. There is so much that we have grown use to leaving at the door of the office when we come into the work place that we've kind of, again like this warming up frog, we're not even aware of it and I think being really conscious about that. Organizations are starting to look at things like dress codes and say do we need to go down to that level of detail, like an adult to a child, saying women are to wear high heels and dresses that have to be below the knee and men are to wear ties and this, that, the other. Many firms now have a dress code that just says dress appropriately for your day. Whatever that looks like. That feels a lot more adult to me. So I think this question's part of a wider question of us understanding what drives belonging in organizations. How do I know I belong here? How do I know I'm safe here? How do I know I'm loved? If we think about it, the issue of belonging within the LGBT or the queer community, particularly the corporate environment is kind of this experience of not actually experiencing love. Let me ask you this. Can you say you feel loved by and in your organization, your current one? Or in any of your previous workplaces have you ever felt that love? If not, have you ever wondered why? So there's kind of a chance here for LGBT+ people because we, probably more than any group, know what it feels like to be excluded because of who we love and how we love. So let's turn that negative experience on its head and create kind of radical belonging, for everyone, by infusing our workplaces with love. If that means tearing up outdated policies that treat us like children, then let's do that.
Al: Yup. I agree with in terms of the journey. The person inclusion's a journey. You've got to start somewhere and you learn. That's why employees are so important in this. As a business resource group they'll tell you. 10 years ago when we started, we started with mainly gay policies and gay issues and experiences. Then we start do more about lesbians. Now bisexual. Now queer and binary. As such we're going down and deeper and deeper as we evolve. So, you're right and you've got to constantly bob and weave. We even had a conversation now about should we use the word 'guys' on calls anymore and 'folks' instead. Right? When I, best practice is as a leader, when I start a meeting I announce myself, "My name is Al Ramsay," and my pronouns, I believe you said that also, he, him and his. Those are sending both signals. It's those little things that you do that you have to put in the organization and your employees, you've got to always get a pulse on your employees and do those climate survey and focus group and you will know exactly how employees are feeling and you have to give it, you have to evolve and I will tell you, I'm learning every day. 16 years of doing diversity and inclusion work and every day, especially the younger generation, they challenge me right now to learn more how to be a better inclusive leader.
Usman: If I could just go to a few last questions. One I think is an important one and it's really more directed to you, David, but I open it up to anybody. So one question is, as a bisexual, pansexual person it is often hard to find support within our own LGBTQ+ community and there's a lot of jokes attached to it. The individual says, I want to be authentic but I've concerns about my workplace after what I've experienced in the LGBTQ community itself. Any advice, David, or others?
David: Well, as someone who's had a similar issue in the sense that when I came out as bi I lost what I call a lot of my gay street cred. I'd been identified as gay man, very openly, for 10 years and that had built up a lot of cred for me. Then when I said actually I'm bi, there were a group of people within the LGBT community who couldn't get their head around that. Who asked very intrusive questions. Are you sure? I think my first comment would be to you is that it is your personal choice how you show up, how you identify, no one can tell you want to do. No one can tell you what it means to be you. So that's the first thing. You always have that right. You always keep that right. It is a personal decision to what degree your out about what things in your life. Straight people are in the closet about certain things. It's not only LGBT people who can be closeted. Straight people can be closeted about being a carer. About having a parent with Alzheimer's. About having a mental health issue. So all of us are in the closet about something and therefore the idea that we all have to be open about everything about ourselves in workplaces is not right and not fair. But I would just say that if you feel that it's going to serve you well to be more courageous and more open, find some people you trust, find some allies, find some people you know are going to support you and use that support and their friendship to help you build the kind of belonging that you want to experience.
Usman: Okay. Anybody else?
Al: I'll just say we just launched our first, this year, bisexual employee resource group. Because we had feedback from our overall Pride Network at TD that they don't feel that they belong with what we were doing. We heard the same thing when we started 16 years ago. Lesbian telling us that all this stuff you're doing, Al, is geared towards your gay friends. I remember this conversation back then so we had to dig deeper and this year we've started a trans committee with a trans man and woman leading that committee. We have one for bisexual because we know that experiences and needs are different. That's what you're telling us and so I agree everything David said in terms of it's individual and in terms of how you show up in the workplace. We have to just keep on, that's one word I find in this space is, in diversity and inclusion we continue have to evolve. It's a journey. It is a journey. You've got to be resilient. You're going to make mistakes along this journey but your employees, I would say, they will guide you.
Usman: We have some catching up to do. So, let me ask that last question and go to Tyler. Go ahead.
Tyler: I'll ask that last question but I also just wanted to maybe follow up on that previous question that was asked of David. My only comment in closing would be that, and this has been a process for me as well and an ongoing one at that, what conditions to think that we should fit within a certain box or a certain paint by numbers sort of regime to our lives, but I think to answer that person's question about concerns they have in their workplace. It's maybe not the most satisfying answer but something that I've had to learn about myself is that we need to start experiencing or viewing this, diversity or these unique traits or ourselves, less as a weakness and more as a strength. In fact, it's one of our greatest strengths and I think that's important to always keep in mind that we're conditioned to think maybe otherwise, but you have to learn that it's a strength of yours at the end of the day and that's something that you need to always have in your back pocket because it's what you've got to work with.
Thank you, Usman, for offering me that spot as one of the final questions here. The question I think I would like to ask of our distinguished guests, the co-directors, Chase and Aisling. Obviously I think we've referenced already and touched on it, you're two directors of this movie, and we're acknowledging the fact that you're speaking to a largely corporate audience and I would imagine, unfortunately as well, a fairly sort of I would imagine, affluent and Caucasian audience. So one of my questions for the two of you would be what your, perhaps, distinct perspective on these questions, what has that taught you that you might be able to share with a decidedly corporate audience that you have before you today? Sort of a new lens to look at for the rest of us.
Aisling: Thanks for the question. Sorry, I also have a puppy on my lap right now.
Tyler: I saw that.
Aisling: Sorry about that. I think one of the things that's always good to remember, from my perspective as a racialized woman, that I remember the certain privileges, there's certain disadvantages I have but also the certain privileges that I have and to be able to use my privilege and the access that I've been afforded that perhaps other people, from different backgrounds and experiences, have not been able to have, and that it's my job to open up opportunities for other people. It's my job to also get out of the way of other people when it's their space to inhabit. I think when we talk about allyship and leadership and all of that, a lot of the reasons these discussions are happening is because the leadership does not reflect the world. It doesn't reflect the diversity of the world and at some point it's not just about giving trainingships and certain lower level jobs or lower level opportunities or part-time opportunities, it's really going that top level needs to change and the risks need to be taken. So I would say that just having one's own look into where am I helping and where am I also hindering from inhabiting a place that should be given an opportunity to somebody who's from a marginalized group or somebody who's from an experience that isn't represented in the sort of corporate hierarchy in some kind of way.
Chase: Collaboration is the future. So happy for Ais's words to be the last.
Usman: One last word that I want to say before just handing it over to Peter is that if you enjoy the film, which you will, if you can go ahead and rate it on iTunes, Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB, I believe our co-directors would greatly appreciate that. So I just wanted to give a shout out to each of you on that. So let me turn it over to Peter for the final words.
Peter: Thanks, Usman and as I've been listening to the discussion I was thinking what could I say and then, thankfully, because you know as lawyers we always like to borrow other people's words, I have the benefit of a question that our audience isn't able to see. But this is from one of our audience who summed it up, to me, and it's this, "Wow! Thank you to all the panelists. Mind blowing and mind opening. So refreshing." I couldn't say it any better than that. So to whoever penned those words, thank you very much to our panel for an extraordinary 90 minutes and thank you to our hundreds and hundreds of attendees. I know that we weren't able to get to all of the questions. We had a number of questions. I figure that with the help of Usman and his knowledge of Blockchain technology there must be some way that we can get the unanswered questions answered and out to everyone who submitted them and put ... submit them. I mean if Blockchain is worth anything it should be able to have a ledger of questions, as I understand how this technology works, should have a ledger of these questions to which we will try to provide answers. So thank you, everyone, for attending our first ever Open House Day of Pink webinar and I can guarantee you it will not be our last. So, I bid you all a good afternoon, a good late morning if you are in BC, and to Mr. Pearson, he's probably on his way to the pub after this, so have a nice evening. Cheers all and I guess Al's camera has exploded after absorbing all of those different shades of pink. Hopefully he's okay. Thanks, everybody. Goodbye.