Ayo Akinwolere: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Gowling WLG Language of Leadership podcast. I'm Ayo Akinwolere. I'm a broadcaster, changemaker and a World Record Swimmer. And in this series, we're discussing what sports leaders can teach businesses about the science and art of getting the most from their teams and organisations.
Gowling WLG has worked with my co-host Charlie Unwin, a sports performance psychologist, to analyse the language used by elite individuals in sports and business and developed six lessons for business leaders to take from the world of sports. In this podcast, we'll be talking about creating a culture of mutual respect. Looking at the importance sports leaders place on this to build a foundation of accountability and trust. And I'm also delighted to welcome today's guest, a man who literally had this incredible medal haul from the Tokyo Olympics - two golds and a silver - and we can't even begin to talk about all his other accolades. We're glad to have swimmer James Guy with us, James, so good to have you in the studio.
James Guy: Thank you for having me.
Ayo: Did you like that intro?
James: It was very, very nice.
Ayo: Charlie then, let's dig into this. Let's talk about creating a culture of mutual respect. What does that mean to you in terms of leadership?
Charlie Unwin: Well, sports leaders not only I think heavily rely on being respected, but they've got to engender a culture of respect across the team. I think if they don't do this, then we struggle with trust, struggle with getting people to push themselves to the limits, which of course in sport is essential. But also, just adopting new ideas, you know, people aren't going to do that unless they have a respect for one another's ideas and who they are in their skills, and probably along with loads of other things are important to high performance so this is a really important subject.
Ayo: James let's take that into the world of sport. I know you're a team member of a relay team, for instance, that sense of mutual respect to get the best out of yourself. How do you think that manifests itself in your space?
James: I think generally across the board, having respect for one of each other is really, really important. So, for example, obviously being at the Tokyo Olympics this year, being part of a team, we know who the four guys are going to be in the final. It's about, I've known these people for a long time, I completely can hand on my heart say, I know they're not gonna mess it up. They're going to do their part of the process and I respect what they do. We are completely different athletes. But together we come as one. And I think when we're together as a team, I know for example, Duncan Scott, when I, when we were leading on the last part of the race, and he was gonna hand it over and do the final leg. I have 100% trust and respect in him, that he's gonna do his part for the team and it's already over. We knew as a team, walking into that final, the race was already over - it was ours for the taking. But it's allowing the trust in each other to do their part, to not panic if something goes wrong. Do your bit for the team and we'll get it right towards the end.
Ayo: What about when it goes wrong? Like in terms of accountability, I'm interested in that as well. Obviously, you guys are the best of the best otherwise you won't be in that relay team. But sometimes someone might have a bit of a dud leg. How much is ownership of that? How important is ownership of action?
James: Sometimes that can happen, you know, especially for, even in the Games. Tom Dean had just won the individual Gold. He's my training partner, we're good friends, and he was the first lead off the relay. I'm thinking, yeah, this is going to be great, Deano's gonna smash it. I'm thinking oh, he looks a bit tired here. Oh, no, come on Deano! Keep going! So obviously, that was a bit of a shock to us thinking we thought we'd be leading after the first leg and we weren't, we were third or fourth. And in those situations, he knew he was tired. And because of what he's done, we look back and think yeah, it was, you know, sort of his kind of part of being tired that we were a bit of just off the world record. And we can change that, that's fine. But at the end of day, we knew that it's his fault, he can take responsibility of that, and own that. It was, kind of, it was up to him.
But we don't panic. We don't blame each other. We don't blame it on him. It's that kind of phrase of Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda. We could have done this to change this, but we didn't. At the end of the day we still won, but there was always looking for ways to improve on what we can do. I think we learn; we move it forward. But we don't allow mistakes happen twice.
Ayo: Yeah. What about creating that foundation?
Charlie: Yeah. Because creating the foundation, I'm almost interested to know, how much is it time spent with each other that builds that respect? And how much? Or do you actually go out of your way to consciously get to know each other out of the pool? You know, as people in order to build that respect?
James: Yeah, of course, I think that's really important. I think one thing that we do quite a lot is obviously we're in the same pool, same people all the time. To kind of become friends properly, you have to get away from that and do your own thing. So myself and Tom, we play a lot of golf. I've known Adam Peaty since we were 16. Duncan, since we were 16, race with them for a long time. And we're actually all really good friends. And I think that's one thing that we've got a lot compared to many other countries, we're quite a small nation, compared to the likes of USA - it's absolutely massive.
Yeah, as I said before, myself and Tom, we do our own thing. But we talk now and again about life things. Not about swimming all the time. You can't have that swimming conversation 24/7, you got to think about other things, for example, cars, or going away with the girlfriends, and try and do dinner together, double date and have a laugh. And one thing that's really important is to switch off from that and go away from the pool, which is great. We train together, we work hard together. But doing something different. And that's really important. Having that kind of equal lifestyle and balance of turn it on, turn it off, turn it on, turn it off. And that's where you have that kind of laugh outside of the pool as well. You go into work mode, and we have, you know, we get competitive, but then you turn it off again. I think that's just the kind of natural way we are.
But that comes across with experience. And, you know, I remember when I was a youngster, I would never try, I would never do that I would never go out for coffee with the guys. So just do my own thing. Where now, you know, we're on the same team, everyone's there with the same goal of wanting to swim fast and do the same thing. But you can't just think about something all the time you got to get a way of doing something else. And my way of escape is kind of golfing really and just do my own thing.
Ayo: Something I was thinking about in terms of leadership, and especially building that sort of foundation and building a team is, how aware do you think coaches are, and business leaders are, when do they build their team? If we talk about your relay team for instance, do you think coaches are thinking actually, I'll put this lot together because I feel like they've got a very similar energy amongst them? Because you hear about this in football teams when they go, I need certain people in the changing room to make sure this team bonds together otherwise without them everyone's just a group of individuals if that makes sense.
James: Yeah, like even in like the, the prep area. So, where the Olympic team were in Tokyo, we had our own little space, we had our tunes going. Our S&C guy, Rob Norman, who's based in Loughborough, he provides the energy. We've come in, it's loud, it's noisy, everyone's vibing off each other. It's fun. And it's making that enjoyable. Especially as part of any team events, we all want to swim fast, we all want to win, we all want to do well, and it's trusting each other in the process to do their own thing. But even before the four by two relay we're there chatting away, talking about The Inbetweeners.
Ayo: I never thought that wouldn't come up in conversation.
James: The Olympic final, we're walking out talking about The Inbetweeners. We're there giggling. That's the kind of level of friendship we're on at this point. So, to be able to do that. Whereas my first games, I was there you know, really, really nervous - not really enjoying it - but this time, completely different talking about Jay Cartwright from The Inbetweeners. That's what it's kind of like, that's where we've come from, and it's not that where you start, it's where you finish.
Ayo: Charlie, for leaders I mean, that's quite an interesting one, isn't it and how you build your team in terms of accountability, but creating a foundation that is very supportive and able to open itself to accountability, but not detrimental to the progress and productivity?
Charlie: Yeah. And for me what James has described there, that's probably an outcome rather than input. It's an outcome of something else being done well, and what is that something else? I mean, one key thing, there's one implication here that we shouldn't take for granted, and that is that you guys valued the success that the others had. In other words, you weren't being competitive with each other. You were being what businesses would describe more as collaborative. You were helping all ships rise in a high tide, and this is a mindset that I think leaders have to get right, first and foremost if they're going to engender this respect. Because the moment things become over competitive, you know, it's either you or I who are going to succeed, you actually, you lower the bar for the team, and what they're capable of. Whereas clearly high performance, as James describes it, you know, it's coming from actually being greater than the sum of its parts, the team is elevating you as an individual to a higher level.
James: Of course, and I think that's one thing that we've learned across the years is that we all want to do well together. We just want to swim fast. And it's great to see, the main event for us at any trials or competition is the two hundred freestyle. It's the last race, everyone wants to be part of the four by two freestyle relay. And when you're part of that, it's kind of cool that we call it the Brotherhood. The Fearless Brotherhood was what we described our boys' relays this year. And when you're part of that, it's something that's renowned for doing well, it's always gonna win a medal at a major competition, because we've just changed that ethos of the last 10 years of being on that relay. And it's, like for example, when we were there in the Games, and it's the four by two freestyle relay day, we go to breakfast together, we do warm up together. We stick as a team, go in the same lane as each other. We want to do well, and we're saying do you want anything pal? How's everything going? Have a laugh before they get in. And I think because we do a lot of events together - in the UK, we do camp events where you look at other teams - and obviously, they're so big, and there's new people coming through all the time where we've been around for a long time. I've known people for 10 years, we're friends, we want to swim fast, and we want to win, and I want to help you and we bounce each other, like off our energy. So, I can come into this room today, talking to you guys, I can feed off your energy, and you're in the pool, and people swimming fast, and you thrive off that, you want a piece of that pie. And that's the way it works. And he's done well, right, let's get after it tomorrow, boys can't wait. I'll do my bit. And it's just like, we're never going to point fingers at anyone because we know we're always gonna give 100% to each other. And that's the way we're kind of known for.
Charlie: It is a really high-octane environment, isn't it? I loved watching it in Tokyo because it just you were there. I mean, even at odd times of day when we ended up watching at three o'clock in the morning and you're there kind of buzzing and jumping up and down. It kind of made you want to be there.
Ayo: Ah huge, but just trying to pick up something you said there actually about, you know, I want to make sure I do a good swim with the boys. You know, they're all doing well. We're all doing it collectively. So, then we've touched on a few times on this podcast is individual responsibility as well right. You know you want to be the best of the best right? You know you want to be part of this incredible team. How much do you think, you know what I've got to go out and I don't want to let these boys down?
James: I think for me, that's just a natural instinct. It's always been there for me, it's for the lads, and I think I never want to be known for oh, you've let the team down today. And that would be really hard on me. I feel like because I'm one of the oldest now, being that young lad from 2013 almost 10 years ago, where now I'm kind of one of the veterans on the team. A lot of experience walking out to Olympic final now I'm not worried, we're not really fazed by it, where someone like Matt for example, says it's his first ever major meet, first ever big final. He's there kind of shaking so I said listen we've done this a thousand times before. Don't even think about it, just didn't go enjoy yourself, you're on telly at the Olympic Games! Be happy!
But for me, it's just like, I think being part of that team, I'm the veteran, I'm the leader, umm and the boys can look up to me for a little bit because I was the guy who kind of changed the way of that relay. I kind of brought it back again really a long time ago. And I think being part of that is my job to make sure everything's alright. It's like having a house party. You're in charge. Make sure everyone's having a good time. I think that's just the way some teams work.
Charlie: So, my assumption is that that culture hasn't just materialised from nowhere. You've probably benefited from those just ahead of you and saying you have permission to enjoy yourself. You have permission to do these things. And that's probably been set by the leaders. What kind of things has your coach done as an example? And maybe not just your coach? Performance managers, other people involved in creating this culture? What kind of things have they done to kind of build respect? And are there any examples of where perhaps your coach has tried to adopt new ideas, and he's been worried about whether you'll kind of, you know, buy into this new idea, where actually respect for him has been really important?
James: Yeah, I think one thing, where I changed coaches into Tokyo 2020, obviously, to add to it 21 as well. And for me, it was believing in the process of being doing something for so long, do I believe what we're doing is going to work? Joining a new coach and going head-to-head with Tom Dean all the time before we were like, just kind of bashing heads quite a bit. Very, very competitive. And he said to me, if you both get it right and accept sometimes, he's going to win and you're gonna win it'll work really, really well. Two years down the line, we've both got a wanted in the pool. He's swimming fast, I'm swimming fast, we're great friends and we believe in, okay, this is going to happen. And I remember even talking about this before Tokyo. We dreamt of this is going to happen. I remember after the relay said, mate, we've done it, we said it in the pool, going head-to- head all the time, working together, being good teammates and friends, helping each other which is what we do. Sometimes I'm down, he'll pull me through, sometimes he's down, I'll pull him through whatever it is, we want to help each other. And that's kind of being part of a team. We want to push each other, especially if we're gonna go in this together as two lads working together, good training partners, good mates. And that's one thing that I think we believed in Dave, and it worked. His ethos behind that of let's get James Guy and Tom Dean on the key sets going head-to-head, let's get them working together, and then turn it off when you need to. And going into Tokyo, we knew when we went over there, on the flight over, and the training camp before where you settled into the team, you kind of getting into the changing of the diet. And we're there about two weeks before, and we knew it was already over. We knew we were going to some fast we were happy we were enjoying what we were doing. And for us, it's just right, we can do our part. Can you do yours? I mean, we knew we were gonna do it, it's just kind of getting the medal now.
Ayo: I was thinking about people in sport. I guess if you're in it in a relay team activity, I'm thinking about the greats like Roger Federer and Nadal. Is it possible to mutually respect someone that's like, much better than you or someone you definitely want to be?
James: I think so. I think maybe that's the kind of I mean, look at Michael Phelps. It's just like the greatest Olympian of all time, all your greats, your Jordans, and all these kinds of people. Floyd Mayweather it's just the stats they've done across their years. I think at some point, they're going to say, on that day, this guy was better than me. And that's the way sometimes it is. I mean, for example, the 200-freestyle final, Duncan Scott, great friend of mine, really, really like him. He was the favourite to win. And on that day, Tom Dean was the better man. But then we still say is Duncan still the better swimmer on the 200 freestyler? Probably. But on that day, Tom Dean beat him. And that's the way sometimes actually, on that day, he was the better man. And that's all it is. It's nothing personal. There's nothing behind it. But sometimes you say, you know what, fair play mate, you got it. And that's what it's about, it's having that mutual respect. But then, when you do that individual separately, then come together as a team, and you want to do well together, it's a different feeling. When you've got your team on your back, and your whole country behind you, this is for the team, of everyone behind you, you want to do well, and it's a different added, kind of a fun pressure where you're hunting people down or you're chasing people. And that's why I like it. I think that's why people most people like it.
Ayo: So, is there an idea then even within business and also within sport, mutual respect requires humility, fundamentally?
Charlie: Yeah, it does. I think respect, is a, it's a very open quality that the moment we respect the person in front of us we're open to observing, to listening, and listening is a really, you know, if there's one skill that leaders need to engender respect, that's listening, right? If you want to command the respect of your troops in the military, you've got to know them, you've got to understand them, which means you've got to spend time listening to them. You might not always like what you hear, that's the other thing. But it's not the point. You're not there to judge them in listening to them. One of my favourite quotes from Stephen Covey's book is 'first seek to understand before being understood,' and I think great coaches they spend time listening. We were chatting before the podcast about on poolside. Do you want to describe some of the conversations your coach might have?
James: So, we were saying before like, the years have gone on and the sporting world has changed. Usually in the swimming world, it used to be, you get in, you blast your session, you go home. Where now our coach will tell us why we're doing it, what we're here for, what part of the cycle we're in, what the session is, what we're trying to get out of the session, what meet is coming up, when we're going away. And sometimes it can be like, oh, it's been half an hour talking. But that's the way it's changed. It's about why we're doing it, what we're doing it for, why are we doing this session. Have every session behind you with a purpose. Oh, yeah, there's three weeks until we start wrestling down for the World Championships. Oh God, it's not much time, really. So, it's kind of changed in that respect of, it's listening to what he has to say. And then another example is, I'm one of the oldest in the Bath National Centre. You've got these young lads coming through. I'll always talk to them about giving them advice. I've said come off the wall with, I'll look at anything, you can change that, change this, how does that feel? How does this feel? I feel like sometimes it's my responsibility, even in the gym, if someone's struggling to do a chin up, you help them up a little bit. And you're kind of giving back to them because they respect you for what you've done. And one of the lads said to me a few days ago said, you've been around for a long time. Do you think you're one of Britain's best ever on the team? I went, I think so. Yeah. Because of how long I've been doing the sport, my diversity of what I've been doing. And they know that, I don't have to tell them that. But when I'm giving them advice, they listen. I said to one of the lads, I said, Johno, why don't you try fasting before you swim? Your metabolism will kick in or whatever, just trying to cut a bit of weight down. He went, okay, I'll try that. One of the other lads said, I said that to him, I told him not to do that weeks ago. But now you've told him to do it, it's different. And now he's tried it. So, it's that respect of, I've been around for a long time. And when I'm talking to someone about the sport, they're gonna listen to me. I know what I'm talking about. And it's nice to have that.
Charlie: But you can flip that. There are lots of people in business who have been around a long time, and they're relying on experience and years in the job to elevate them to a position of leader. But when they talk, people don't always listen. Not because they're not experienced, but because they don't communicate in a way that's conducive. They're not respected in that way. So, as well as you being experienced, I sense just from chatting to you, that you're also you know, someone who is very human, you know, you connect. And that's so important, isn't it? For respect. And in fact, I was going to ask you about what it's like to be a junior member of the squad coming in, because one of the areas that I think it's an acid test for respect in business, is how new people are introduced to teams. It's so important, because that's the building blocks of how we behave together, of course.
Ayo: What has changed over the years as well because I remember initiations. You know what I'm trying to say? You know, if we use the analogy of playing football. What used to be was that you come in, you do the initiation, yeah, whatever. And then you're like, well, you made the team, you're part of the boys now. But actually, a lot of the younger lads are like, I'm not into this. It's not how I work right?
James: I was just saying, my first ever senior team was the 2013 World Championships, and that was in Barcelona. I didn't make London. I was the youngest there. And these guys have, they've made the teams before for the last six, seven years. Michael Jamieson had just won silver in London. He was probably the best on the team right now. And I'm like, you know, I like this guy. I want to be like him. And that's, that's what you look up to, because you're the youngest there. I remember getting to the airport, my dad dropped me off, being with these people I've never spoke to before. I'm this young lad who's doing well at the minute, and I've qualified and I'm like, what, how do you conduct yourself in this so you kind of keep yourself to yourself. And you kind of gain respect by what you do and how you do it. And my event, I qualified for the final on the 400-freestyle in lane eight. Bearing in mind this is my first ever team, hadn't done anything before. No one's ever heard of me. And I thought you know what, tonight, I'm just gonna try and break them. I don't care who they are. When it's in the pool, it's game on. And I led to the first 50, I led to the halfway on the 200 on the world record speed. And I got beat by the current Olympic champion, silver medallist and the bronze medallist and I came fifth. And because of that swim, people try and talk to you and say, ah, Michael how was that mate? Great swim?! I think, for him to do that to me. That was quite nice. And to hear that thing, I said actually, David, I want to come to Bath for a bit of a trial and he said ah mate, come whenever you want. So, they see what you are like as an athlete. And because you commit yourself and you're a grafter and you work hard, and you've done well. It's kind of keeping yourself to yourself. And actually, they think he's actually really nice lad. That's where the kind of respect comes from. Where it's the young lad, come into the team, where now it's kind of changed where obviously there was initiations. You have to do these things with people. It's a big laugh. And it's completely changed now where, now we get into different groups and just talk to people and to see what it's about. And it's, the whole ethos has changed, where it's obviously times have moved on, this is almost 10 years ago. This is my sixth World Championships now. And I'm just like, that's just another world, where like people at their first World Championships, you know, they're shaking. And it just comes with a wealth of experience. But I think a lot of people this year, it's their first time making the Worlds. But it's, not sure what happens when we get there in initiations, we might do one last time, but it's just times have changed and it's forgotten about now, it really has.
Ayo: I was just thinking about that, Charlie, especially for leaders to think, especially when a new crop of people are coming into the environment. What if certain people don't fit that working environment? But are they still viable? Can they still gain respect? And how aware should leaders be of that?
Charlie: There's a massive drive to a towards inclusivity at the moment, and I think respect and inclusivity absolutely go hand in hand. And again, it sort of comes to this idea of why have you brought someone into your team? You've got to know, you've got to understand and if you're struggling with that question, when they're being brought in, I would sort of question the recruitment process almost. And companies are recognising that being very values based is important. Because, you know, swimming is a very particular activity. And it's very easy to identify, I say, it's easy to identify, but it's easier to identify the talent that's likely to be successful in that. Business, you know, it's a very open thing. We require, they're multi-disciplined athletes in business, so everyone's a multi-disciplined athlete. So, it's not as clear cut, you know, you're going to be good, you're not going to be good. So, it becomes much more about values, behaviours. And that's where I think there's a real benefit to thinking about values and respect. And, and as James said, it's not just what we do, it's how we do it. And if you buy into what we're doing, then that's great.
I live in Nailsworth, in Gloucestershire and Forest Green Rovers are our local football team. They've become famous, I suppose. And not only they've been promoted into League One, but also, they are the first carbon neutral football team in the world. They are all vegans, they adopt a completely different philosophy, they refuse to be sponsored by the big names who might not have the sort of same sort of ethical credentials. And so, bringing athletes into that environment, it's kind of saying it's all very well being able to afford good players. But actually, what you're saying is, you've got to believe in what we're doing. And if you do, and that will be a real test of whether you do, then you are going to be massively welcome here. And we will, you know, respect you 100%. And just linking that, because there's an important point here for businesses about having that respect internally, and how it leaks externally. So, for businesses, there's a clear evidence to show that where respect is had with within the business i.e., between employees, that is demonstrated towards clients' customers, as well. And so, it has this sort of much grandeur of…
James: It feeds off, doesn't it?
Charlie: Yeah. And that I guess, in your world, James, that that was seen at London, 2012, right. Because the volunteers and all the people around the Games were so well respected, weren't they? People loved them and went out to talk to them. That's a function of what you guys were doing internally, I would suggest.
James: Yeah, I think I completely agree. But just off like the sporting a minute, I know a guy and he said to me that the business is flying. It's the best sales ever had in the last year across Europe, by a country mile. And he said, mate, he said my team are just fantastic. So, what they do, together internally creates, you know, obviously, like I said before, it feeds off to people outside the business, people come back because the customer service is so good. You know, I bought a car off him, then became friends with him, I go and see him. I've sold three cars to other people. And it just it feeds off other people I think because that team inside is so good it externally feeds off to other people, and the obviously the consumers. And that's why, you know, businesses like that, when they've got a good team inside them. And they've got a good, good commander in lead. They do so well.
Ayo: There's this idea that to command respect you have got to be bigger and outworldly, but for me it's about that human connection. And you know the leaders, you know the people, the coaches, you know they're good at what they do but is that personal connection that they have with you that really reverberates and you want to work for them, you want to do something for them because you're like, I don't want to let him down. What a legend you know.
James: I agree, it's not about being this loud massive person, you know who you are, you know what he's done, you want to work for him, you can see all his stats. You don't have to say anything to him. He doesn't have to tell you what he's done, you let the business do the talking, and that's where I think massive respect comes in. You can search James Guy or Adam Peaty or Usain Bolt, and I'm thinking he's sat over there. You're with him on the team. You don't have to say, mate, oh my God. It's like, let's get after it. You don't have to suck up to him. I've always been told be around people who are better than you so you can learn from them, and you want to be around that positive energy. I've always said, if you think negative, negative things will happen. Think positive and positive things will happen, and that's the way I've always gone about things. Like you said before it's about, you don't have to be this massive person and this humungous thing and loud, just being who you are but bear in the back of your mind you know what they have done. I think that's really cool and important.
Ayo: Yes, I think that's a really good take from your perspective in terms of a lesson for this entire conversation. One from you, just one overriding message?
Charlie: I think you've got to be proactive about it, it's not going to happen on its own. I think that's the key thing. There have been some fantastic nuggets in here to help you with that, but be proactive, make it happen, have a strategy for building respect in the team, in the energy you want from that team.
Ayo: Gentleman, absolute pleasure. Can we just keep going? Just keep rolling, please? Honestly, seriously that was really great good for thought as well, and James thanks so much for coming down.
James: Pleasure. Thank you for having me. Really enjoyed it.