The Space: elevating early talent - episode three - Ben Stansfield

Emma Dennis: Today I am delighted to be here with Ben Stansfield, a partner in the planning and environment team in our London office and co-chair of ESG at Gowling WLG and Ben has also been involved in a lot of our early talent programmes across the years as well.  So hi Ben, thank you for joining me today.

Ben Stansfield: Hello, pleasure.

Emma: You joined the firm back in 2018 I think.

Ben: Yes.

Emma: And I know that since you have been here you have been involved, as I mentioned, in our early talent programmes and I want to talk about that a little bit later, but first I wanted to focus a little bit on you and your career.

Ben: OK.

Emma: I wonder firstly, if you could just tell me a little bit around the type of work you do at the firm.

Ben: Yes, sure.  So I am part planning lawyer, part environmental lawyer and so I help clients with, particularly on the infrastructure type projects, so the sort of biggy and potentially grubbier projects, or the big projects that have got an impact on the environment and so we help them get consent and keep their consents, if they are challenged in court and on the environment side, crumbs, it is just so broad, so we deal with, the bread and butter is contaminated land but that has morphed over the years so it became sort of from contaminated land we started doing lots of carbon trading and then it moved into renewables and so, you know, we do a lot helping people with things like biodiversity, permitting, you know whether that’s appeals or variations and all that kind of stuff; some litigation in there as well, and then some sort of, it is not obscure but sort of, you know, quite sort of unique and specialist regulations so a motor manufacturer might say, you know, how does this regulation impact the hazardous substances I need to use on my spare parts, we do some tailpipe emissions work for some of the car manufacturers, and its packaging and all sorts of stuff. 

So it is sort of this huge canvas of work and I always say that every client in every sector in every jurisdiction no matter its size has an impact on the environment and the environment impacts it.  So keeping up with all legislation and best practices and all this kind of stuff that impacts our clients is challenging but that is why it is the best group to be in.

Emma: Yes.  And how did you get into focussing on environmental law?  What was that?  How did that happen?

Ben: So I was particular rubbish as a student at interviews for jobs, job interviews, so I had lots of open days and assessment centres and what have you, I was close but not quite there.  So I left law school and paralegal'ed and I thought I wanted to be Real Estate lawyer because it was tangible and I did not really understand, you know, corporate structures and things on whiteboards with arrows.  So I wanted something real and so I became a property paralegal and the environmental lawyers who were part of property were just so busy.  This was 2000 and environmental law was sort of, it was not in its infancy but it was I think you know we just had this new polluter page type legislation coming in and so they were super busy doing lots of exciting work and they were just fun and they said look, you know, come and work with us and we will give you trainee level work and we will, you know, give you as much support as you need.  And I just thought yes, this is brilliant.

It was not initially sparked by a I want to save the world, you know, I was interested in nature and I was interested in environmental issues, I did not really think about climate change back then but it felt like it was important and was going to get more and more significant, it had taken a lot longer than I thought it would but I think we are there now.

Emma: Did you always know that you wanted to be a lawyer, was that sort of from when you were younger, was that the plan?

Ben: I'm slightly embarrassed to say yes.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: I remember when I was at primary school telling my dad, I was probably year 5, ten or something like that and I said dad I think I want to be a lawyer and I think it was basically because one of the family friends had a big house and used to throw these sort of Christmas Eve parties and I was like wow this is what solicitors do, this is amazing, I want some of this and I remember, you know, as soon as you tell your parents you want to be a lawyer they are like yes, that is exactly what you are going to do.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: And I never really deviated from that.  And then when I was at university I was like well look, you know, and I studied law and French.  Law was great and I was thinking well actually maybe the Foreign Office would be good and I really wanted to, and I looked at the police as well, so it was all kind of similar type stuff, but yes, I think I had been speaking about being a lawyer for a very long time.

Emma: And you did it, you have achieved it.

Ben: I did it, I made it, yes.

Emma: And when you were starting out in your career was partnership always the goal?

Ben: It was and I think that is probably a sort of sign of my generation or what have you, you know, that was sort of being the ultimate, but I remember again as a paralegal and as a trainee thinking that, you know, partners were this omniscient, they could do anything , they were just brilliant lawyers and they could just charm their clients and I was in awe of them and I thought yes that is what I, that is the standard I want to get to and it is the standard I still want to get to by the way.

And yeah, you know the way they, not just so much the winning clients but the way they sort of were able to, they were responsible for the strategy.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: And sort of the ringmasters and what have you, so yes that was the goal.

Emma: Yes.  Do you think you had misconceptions about what partnership or any perceptions of what partnership would be like, before you got there, and did anything change when you actually achieved that?

Ben: There was certainly a point in my career where I thought it was all sort of five bedroom houses and Aston Martins and I can confirm that that is not my reality.  But I was lucky I think, particularly as a junior associate that I was in a small team, with two fantastic partners who were really open about the fun brilliant bits and the really less exciting bits and, you know, the spreadsheets and the business plans and all that kind of stuff that is slightly under the radar.

So when I became a partner having been an associate, I had been really well prepared by the people I had worked for and I am intensely grateful for that.  So yes, I think I knew what I was getting into.

Emma:  Good. good.  I mentioned earlier that you are also co-chair of ESG here at the firm.  What does that involve?

Ben: I am still working that out I think, because again ESG is such, we kind of treat it like a sector because we have not really had a better way of dealing with it, but it is just so broad because, you know, environment is big enough and then when you add sort of all the social issues and governance issues, clients are grappling with and so I kind of describe myself as the lightning rod in the sense of, you know, we have a got a few people who either are recognised internally or externally for knowing a bit about this stuff and so I might get the queries and then sort of disseminate them to the real experts, and it is, you know, a big, I think, part of my responsibility is making sure or equipping colleagues to be able to go and talk to clients about ESG with confidence.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: It is increasingly a big part of us winning work in terms of, you know, what are you as a business doing?  So we know that everyone in the business, not just the lawyers, need to know about ESG issues, but yes, equipping colleagues to be able to go and speak with confidence about issues that our clients are trying to get their heads round and trying to think about what is coming round the corner because obviously a lot ESG is always coming out of Brussels and what have you and how that is going to impact them and how it is impacting North American clients even if it is a European law and stuff like that, so it is kind of having, trying to get my arms as wide as possible and as far round this sort of morphos glob of legislation and practice and you know, original ideas that are coming out and then trying to work out how our clients can understand that, adapt their practices, incorporate those ideas and yes, but a work in progress.

Emma: Yes.  What we are going to do is we will take a short break now and then when we are back I want to find out more about your advice for people at the start of their careers.

So welcome back to part 2, so Ben I am going to kick off now with some quick fire questions to get to know you a little bit better.

So my first question is inspired by a question I think you like to ask some of our trainees or potential trainees at assessment centres.  What is your favourite biscuit?

Ben: Rich tea.

Emma: Why?

Ben: Every time.  Because I mean some people think it is a bit boring but it is traditional, it is reliable, you know what you are getting, it's vegan, so my choice of biscuits is not as wide as other people's.  You can kind of get fairly high marks for digestives.

Emma: I do like a digestive.

Ben: And oaties or hobnobs.

Emma Yes.

Ben: Can we give a brand, but anything with chocolate on is a no and anything describing itself as double or triple chocolate is an absolute no, those are just school boy biscuits.

Emma: Rich tea, good.  And was your first job?

Ben: I worked in a greengrocers in Walton in Essex for a pound an hour, I hated it.

Emma: And what is your favourite animal?

Ben: Ooh, capybaras.

Emma: Oh that is a nice choice, so I think my daughter likes those.

Ben: They are cool.

Emma: Is your bed made right now?

Ben: Yes but not my me.

Emma: OK, I like the honesty, there.

Ben: There is just lots of cushions.

Emma: Oh too many cushions to arrange?

Ben: I just do not get that.

Emma: What time do you usually wake up in the morning?

Ben: 6.30 ish.

Emma: Yes.  And what is your favourite movie?

Ben: Favourite movie?  Oh, crumbs I should know this, it is on the tip of my tongue, it is about spaceships.

Emma: Star Wars?

Ben: No.

Emma: Star Trek?

Ben: Oh man, it has got …

Emma: Who is in it?

Ben: It has got Uma Thurman.

Emma: A recent film?

Ben: No, it was when I was at university, so late 90s.

Emma: Late 90s?

Ben: And it begins with an A.  Gattaca.

Emma: That does not start with an A.

Ben: But it has got two As in it, it ends with an A.

Emma: OK.

Ben: Gattaca.

Emma: I do not think I have every seen that, is it good?

Ben: So it is the best science fiction film, I am not a big science fiction fan, but apparently if you ask loads of scientists what is the most realistic science fiction film most of them will say Gattaca, and the reason I love Gattaca is because it is about a guy whose dream is to go to space and, but he is more prone to illness and what have you because he has not been genetically, you know, when his parents had kids he was sort of made through love rather than through sort of engineering or what have you and it is about his story about getting his dream job and going to space and I watched it at a time when I was being really rubbish at job interviews and I just identified with it a little bit that that was my dream, but I wasn't quite good enough to get there.  So Gattaca, brilliant film.

Emma: I am going to watch that now, I have never … I remember the name now you have said it but I have never seen it.

Ben: It is beautifully shot as well.

Emma: Yes.  OK.  What is your dream holiday destination?

Ben: Tricky, because I like a lot of things, I prefer city breaks and I burn like a crisp at the slightest sight of sun, but I do quite like sitting down and doing nothing.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: So a city break with a bit of beach or pool.

Emma: Like Barcelona?

Ben: Barcelona would be pretty good.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: Yes, and two centre holidays.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: I do not like spending two weeks or one week in one place.

Emma: No, you need to … yes, one week in a city somewhere and then a week by the beach to relax.

Ben: Absolutely.

Emma: What is your hidden talent?

Ben: Oh I wish I had one.  I can juggle.

Emma: You can juggle?

Ben: I can juggle and I used to be able to unicycle.

Emma: Wow.

Ben: But it has been a long time since I have been on a unicycle so I do not think I can claim that.

Emma: Not the same as like riding a bike where you do not forget, I can imagine a unicycle is harder?

Ben: I am pretty sure I would have forgotten.  But it is in the garage, just waiting to be used.

Emma: So what we need is now you to bring that into the office at some point and have a go.

Ben: That sounds like a Jason Coates style challenge.

Emma: Yes.  What is your go to karaoke song?

Ben: I have never done karaoke.

Emma: Really?

Ben: Never, not once.  And this is the, that is the introvert in me.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: But the extrovert fighting to get out would like to do Beyond the Sea by Bobby Darin.

Emma: Oh I love that song.

Ben: It is the greatest song ever.

Emma: You have got to do that then, you have got to find the opportunity.

Ben: I would not be able to pull it off.  I think a song like that, again something like Mack the Knife, it cannot be done by amateurs.

Emma: What is your favourite season?

Ben: Autumn, because it is not too hard, so I do not burn.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: But you can still get outdoors.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: And you do not need to wear a coat.

Emma: Yes.  Are you a Swiftie?

Ben: No.

Emma: No.  That ends my follow up question, to that one.

Ben: What was the follow up question?

Emma: If yes what is your favourite era of hers but …

Ben: I would not know, I like Shake It Off, but is that an era, that is a song.

Emma: That is like 1989 era, so it is a song within an era.

Ben: OK.

Emma: I am inserting Taylor Swift questions this time into the podcast.  And then just a few more quick fire ones.  Cats or dogs?

Ben: Cats.

Emma: That looked like a difficult choice for you?

Ben: Because I would probably say dogs but I have got a cat and I would not want to upset her.

Emma: Oh you have got to be loyal to the cat.

Ben: Yes.

Emma: Are you more introvert or extrovert?

Ben: Definitely introvert.

Emma: Night out or night in?

Ben: Night ooh, it depends on the night out.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: And who I am with.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: But probably night in.

Emma: Pineapple on pizza, yes or no?

Ben: Yes.

Emma: Good.  And night owl or early bird?

Ben: Night owl.

Emma: Thank you.  So yes, so now I wanted to ask you some questions, still a bit focussed on your earlier career but then going into some of the advice that you would give to others.  So if we were to go back to when you were starting out your career, did you experience any challenges when you were first looking for a training contract?

Ben: Yes, I did.  I was not good at interviews and I would walk into big shiny glass steel buildings that were designed to impress people and it intimated me and I did not have, I do not think I had any … I did not know any lawyers except for the family friend who did great Christmas parties.  I did not have any good advice or mentors at that time and so I would sort of go into an interview and just freeze up and just think oh crumbs, and you know, I had one or two interviews at firms and the partners were just really mean, some of their questions and so I am really mean to them when I am on a deal with them now.  So yes it was not easy.  It really was not.

Emma: Yes.  Can you remember, I presume you went on a vacation scheme, can you remember anything of your experience?

Ben: I did a vacation scheme at a commercial firm in Essex.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: So I did not get, I wanted to come and do a vac scheme in the city but I did not get on them, so I did one elsewhere.  I kind of enjoyed it but it did not have, it was not the kind of work that I wanted to do so we did sort of public inquests and domestic conveyancing and what have you, well you know it, I remember thinking oh this is not for me but on my last day I sort of did my thanks and one lawyer who I had done a little bit of work for just said well done for getting through it and of all the careers you could have chosen do not forget law is a really good one, and it is kind of trendy isn't it to sort of moan and go oh terrible, you know, try and push people away from what you do, but I remember and this was 25 years ago and this guy just saying it is a really good choice, you would be really happy doing it.  And that stuck with me and sort of gave me a bit of extra motivation to push on and do it.

Emma: Keep going.  And what was your training contract like when you got a training contract?  What was that like for you?

Ben: I loved it.  I loved it and I think it was partly, you know this was something again going back to me as the idiot ten year old saying I wanted to be a lawyer, you know this was something I had sort of set my sights on for 10/15 years and I was suddenly doing it.  And I was doing it at a big firm in London, doing crazy hours but just absolutely loved it.

Emma: Yes.

Ben: I had an absolute hoot and met friends for life, you know, my best friends in law were from my training contract, my intake, so no it was a really happy time.

Emma: I mentioned earlier that you have been involved with our early talent programmes and sort of the vacation schemes and assessment centres.  When you are involved with those what are you looking for in potential trainees?

Ben: So I want someone whose tail is going to wag and someone who has just got a passion and I do not really mind what it is, so like huge levels of enthusiasm and someone who owns problems, as in you know you might give someone a file or a note or something and they will move heaven and earth to get it done to a wonderful standard, rather than spending a couple of hours and then saying oh I got a bit stuck, here you go, you can have it back at half five, and me then having to deal with it for the next five hours to get it out to the client.  So there is that ownership of a problem is essential but the enthusiasm and passion and fire as well.

Emma: Yes.  What was it like then when you qualified as a lawyer?  How did that feel?

Ben: It was like being, continue being it's like a trainee so almost like doing a fifth seat but I still had this feeling of crumbs I have got, the training and the academics is behind me now so I have certainly got to be like the partners I work with.  I probably spent too much of my earlier career trying almost to become a carbon copy of the people I worked with and although it was quite sometimes a sort of Hackney phrase of be your authentic self, it couldn't be more true and I wish I had learnt that sooner about finding your authentic voice and being who you are because I was probably six/seven years qualified before I really sort of started to understand that actually I am who I am and I am going to play to my strengths and I read a book about being introvert and how to be.  That actually was a good thing as a lawyer, listening more and just embracing who you are.  I think from that moment I just thought, you know I am who I am so I may be quiet sometimes.  Sometimes I would have zoomies in the office and it just felt much more free when you think well this is who I am and I am going to just embrace that.  That was quite liberating. 

The other sort of thing I did as a junior is I copied a couple of lawyers perhaps a bit too closely but I also tried to take one thing, whether it was good or bad, from people I worked with or clients.  So if someone was in a meeting it would be how they deal with it and I would make a note of that.  I remember once as a junior the senior lawyer smashing the headset because they were angry at something that happened on one of their files and thought crumbs I never once am going to shout in the office or raise my voice or blame anyone.  So I guess from that, find your voice.  Find who you are as quick as you can and while you are doing that, just sort of observe everybody.  What is one thing they do really well?  What is one thing that person does really badly?  Try and push yourself to the good stuff and not the bad.

Emma:  Do you wish that you could have found empowered to be yourself right at the start of your journey?

Ben:  Yes I do and I think you know, I think that was me rather than the firm I worked for.  I do not think they were trying to, actually it was quite a blue collar firm in the sense of everyone had very diverse backgrounds and different educations and experiences.  So the firm was really good at that stuff and actually, just like Gowling, but I think I just had it in me to be a little bit more trying to fit into what I thought lawyers were because again I had had all of that perhaps a tougher time trying to get through training contracts and what have you.  One of the questions I got was, you know Ben you are from a small town in Essex and you haven't gone to a Russell group university so this probably is not the right kind of place for you is it.  That burns.  It is 25 years later and I felt that really deeply and very strongly as a trainee and junior lawyer so I do not think it is a criticism of where I was.  I think it was a criticism maybe yes, the sooner you can find your voice and be comfortable in your skin and who you are what your USP is and even if it is just wearing stripey socks, have something unique about you that makes you think that you can just sort of do what you want to do and be who you want to be and think what you want to think.

Emma:  I think as well like we said that the world of work has changed quite a lot because I remember sort of 20 odd years ago when I was starting out I did not have a degree and then for probably the first ten years of me working, that was always in my head, that I am not good enough, I have not got a degree I cannot do X, Y and Z or I need to behave in a way to show that I am capable.  It does not feel right to who I am.  So I get how things can sort of, in your head you sort of feel like you have to act in a certain way.

Ben:  Yes, it is human nature to want to fit in isn't it and if you see things that other people have got that you are well aware you do not, you feel inferior and people should not.  Actually, I do not want to be too Gowling WLG but of all the places I worked, I really struggle to identify a type here and I would hope that is a really good thing for people starting their careers here because they have not got the very obvious model to follow because this is such variety.

Emma:  So vacation schemes can be quite scary we said for people coming along to them.  What advice would you give to anybody attending one?  What is the best they can do to sort of I guess give the best of themselves on that day?

Ben:  So my advice is always be interesting and interested.  So interested in terms of asking as many questions as you can and when you are given a piece of work ask all the questions around it.  So if you are given a share purchase agreement, why is the share of the seller wanting to do the deal.  What is the finance director or the buyer thinking about and what conversations are they having with the bank and all this kind of stuff.  So do not just ask about what the thing in front of you is but all the silly bits around the side because that is what I am going to ask in your interview at the end of the Vac scheme.  So that is the be interested.

Be interesting is look, I am massive introvert and when I was 18 I was horrendous and had not worked out all the tricks and pretend you are not introverted type of things, so I know it is really difficult but people are going to want to know who you are and what makes you tick and what makes your tail wag and all that kind of stuff and they are going to take you to lunch in the canteen and chat about holiday destinations or favourite books and all that kind of stuff or what is your favourite biscuit.  Be prepared to answer those and ask them back.  So it is super hard to try and fit into a really established team on day one.  We get that but force yourself.  Push yourself to take part in some of those conversations.

Emma:  Yes and I guess like you say, get through the vacation scheme and there is going to be an assessment centre at the end with lots of different things that make up that with the interview and group tasks and individual tasks.  What can people do to make sure they perform their best in each of those aspects do you think?

Ben:  So the really easy stuff is done when you are at home getting ready in terms of your outfit.  I remember my assessment day many years ago and I was quite nervous and I walked in and I saw that two guys had not shaved and I instantly thought I am ahead of you.  This was different times all that kind of, and one guy's tie was not straight.  So instantly I thought ah that is three people I am ahead of now.  So just basic stuff like that.  Turn up and I hate suits and I hate ties but have a tie in your pocket just in case you need it.  So dress to impress that kind of stuff.

What else would I say?  Again get your tail wagging as quick as you can, so you look like you are enthusiastic and you are enjoying it.  So certainly in the interviews they are quite formulaic and with good reason because we want to ask and assess people in a similar way rather than sort of asking one set of questions to candidate A and another to candidate B but just have something a little bit different, a little bit unique.  An interesting story and something that you have not talked about before because it will come across much more naturally.

Emma:  Is there anything that people can do at assessment centres that would immediately sort of be the wrong thing to do or put the assessors off that candidate?

Ben:  I had a candidate on one assessment centre here actually a few years ago who in a group exercise, in the group presentation followed up each of his colleagues' answers with his own.  So candidate A here is a question for you and they would give a good answer and so what the should have said and what they forgot to mention was X, Y, Z.  That did not go down very well at all.  I was probably a little bit firm with him when it was his turn for a question.  Did not like that.  So you know work as a team.

Emma:  Yes there is a balance isn't there I think I have seen this a few times as well of wanting to sort of put yourself forward and be the best that you can be and perform in those assessment centres but there almost a line and you cross over that line and it becomes almost too much.

Ben:  Yes I do not like to see sharp elbows.  I like to see, you know I always think a good assessment or group exercise is where everyone gets the same mark because everyone has worked really hard and bounced off each other and had some really original ideas and they are not just sort of saying, morning everyone and that is the only thing they say.  It is really horrible because sometimes you do see someone who is just melting a little bit inside and the other people are not bringing them in.  So, actually I get quite cross with the talkers and say why aren't you getting candidate 3 to talk and why are aren't you pulling them up?  That is how a good team works.  So, no sharp elbows and drag others up with you if they are finding it hard because we will notice.

Emma:  Looking back over your career now, is there any one moment that really sorts of sticks out for you, either from a client perspective or personal perspective.  Something that really sticks out as a real highlight.

Ben:  So one of my most memorable, well one matter that I advised on, it was a pro bono matter when I was a trainee.  So when I was a trainee we did a lot of Law Clinic work once a month and actually I continued that as an associate for ten years as well and it was wonderful and it really reminded me that we are in an ivory tower in this profession in city law firms and large commercial organisations and there are some people really struggling out there. 

I think I was a second or third seat trainee and a lady came in.  Her son had died tragically through cancer and she was trying to get his employer to pay, I think he had £900 in a pension pot.  He had not been there long and she wanted the Trustees to pay for a gravestone which she could not afford because she had used all her savings on the wake and the casket and all that kind of stuff.  There is no law in that.  We just, I spent six to nine months writing a letter every two or three weeks to the Trustees of the supermarket saying please do not give the money to, he was estranged from his kids, her grandchildren.  So please do not give the money there but please pay for the gravestone.  A bit like the Shawshank Redemption, after all these letters eventually they caved in to fine, just send us the invoice and we will sort it out.  The one day at work I got a little parcel an in it was a shirt, an Easter egg and a five pound note and a letter from the client whose name I still remember and what almost chokes me up is there was a photo of this little lady beaming, standing next to the gravestone and she had never, you cannot imagine a happier face in horrific circumstances and it again reminded me the power of what we do and how we can help people and that has not nothing to do with being a commercial lawyer or an environmental lawyer and I am telling this tale thinking actually is has got nothing to do with what I do now but it was just a really powerful moment at a young stage in my career that you can achieve pretty important meaningful things and we have got skills that we need to put into good use.

Emma:  Yes it is the impact of something like that on somebody and then to be able to see the impact in that photograph must have been really special.

Ben:  It was amazing.  I have still got the photo somewhere and I do feel that you know after being a qualified lawyer for 20 odd years I should have something a little bit, the highlight is 20 years ago. 

Emma:  Certain things stick in your mind don't they.  I asked you to think of one thing that sticks out.

Ben:  Yes it was very powerful.

Emma:  Do you get involved with much pro bono work here at the firm?

Ben:  I do a little bit and not as much as I would like or should so I advise a couple.  I advise an environmental charity on some sort of nature protection type stuff and I am involved with various law associations which is not quite pro bono but I sort of put it in that category a little bit but every year I tell myself that I really need to get back to the Law Clinic and help folk.

Emma:  Can you think of a piece of advice that stuck with you that has helped you so far in your career.  Have you ever had anyone share any advice with you?  Or just some words of wisdom?

Ben:  One of the partners I worked for when I was an associate would just say well how hard can it be in the sense of there would be a new, as an environmental lawyer you get a lot of questions which you just never even thought about.  New regulations you have never heard of.  New sectors that you do not know much about.  The clients would say, you know, can you help us with this and the guy I worked for would say well how hard can it be.  We are the smartest lawyers here.  You know if we cannot work out the answer the no one can and so I do try and approach that and it probably gets me into sticky wickets at times but just have a go.  You know just go back to first principles.  Do some wider reading.  Read the regulation.  I always do not like to think of being massively successful as a lawyer but one of the attributes that I do not have is huge intelligence and I think that has made me a better lawyer. 

So when I was at Law School and when I was a trainee they would read a regulation and it would be massively complicated to me and they would just go, that makes sense.  I did not get it.  I had to read it two or three times and then I had to put it in different words and then I had to think of some work examples and then I could explain it in simple terms to clients and that was making really complicated stuff simple was not my USP but that is how I have been successful and so not being as bright as everyone else sort of has helped me and I think that again is the sort of same sort of point that Brian would say.  You know, how hard can it be?  Let us just start reading it and start working it out and let us just start putting some made up example around the regulation and work it through.  So that was quite useful.

Emma:  I like that one.  How hard can it be?  It is a really good, I am going to have that stuck in my head now.

Ben:  Yes, it does run the risk of failing to understand the complexity and as it turns out it was quite hard but no, just make a start. 

Emma:  Yes, it is giving things a go isn't it.  Give it a go.  Make a start.  My last question I wanted to ask you is what is the best thing that has happened to you this week?

Ben:  Well, in the last seven days I have been ridiculously lucky and I saw Coldplay at the Dutch Grand Prix.

Emma:  Wow.

Ben:  So you have asked, if you had to chose one of the 52 weeks to do this interview, this was the right week.  So those two were pretty special.  Quite, I do not like bucket lists but they were both on the list of things I wanted to do for a long time.

Emma:  A good week.  A good week.  Well thank you Ben for joining us today and sharing your experience and your advice as well to people.  We will be back next time to get to know more talented people here at Gowling WLG.  Thank you for listening and have a wonderful week.