Condovirus episode 20 - Leading the industry

Rod: Let me just see here. Oh, wow, my notes. I can't see my notes. That's going to be an interesting light. But there it is. Hello everybody. My name is Rod Escayola and I'm your condominium lawyer with Gowling WLG. This is the script for October so we're going to have to change that again. Kids, don't try this at home. This is the magic of television. There it is. Here I am again. Welcome to the January edition of our monthly Condo Webinar. Believe it or not we're tackling season number 2 and so that's pretty exciting. Thanks so much everybody for taking the time to join us, now on a monthly basis. Usually the first Wednesday of the month but this time around, because it was January, we thought we'd get a bit lazy. Now, just in case you thought we'd run out of material to cover, sadly yesterday the Province has, for the second time in 10 months, declared a state of emergency. With further restrictions and sweeping powers to the Province to enforce them. This was required, obviously, because of the COVID numbers are simply not going in the right direction. They've doubled over the last 2 weeks and to save our health care system, which is the brinks of breaking down, (I'm relaying the words here from yesterday's press conference), in light of all of that the Province has had to what it had to do and they told us we'd fall off our chair and falling off our chair we did. They've announced a second state of emergency. So we're going to be talking about that. That's going to be the first half of today's webinar and the second half will be devoted to a loaded question. Get ready for this one. Can condominiums request proof of vaccination? That was going to be the main topic but Doug Ford had different plans for us. Now, as usual, what we've done is we've called upon our trusted experts to join us tonight. You'll recognize the usual crew. They are returning fresh from their holidays that they spent at home, which is no different than any other day where they work from home, and so here it is. Now, I was thinking what kind of a theme could we have today to introduce our team, and I was debating should I go with New Year's resolution and I wasn't too sure what to do, and then Doug Ford went forward and brought us back to the future. So I thought that that could be the theme tonight. So without further ado, I'm going to introduce them referring to various characters from that movie. Those movies. There were quite a few movies. Okay, so who do we got? From Crossbridge, speaking on behalf of ACMO, she is Marty McFly's girlfriend, Jennifer Parker, we have Katherine Gow. Hello, Katherine.

Katherine: Great to be here. Thanks a lot for having me, Rod.

Rod: And we have from Lash Condo Law, speaking on behalf of CAI Canada. In a minute I'll ask you what your New Year's resolution but we have, Marty McFly's mother, Lorraine Baines McFly aka Denise Lash. Hi, Denise.

Denise: Hello. I love it. Great to be here.

Rod: Thanks for being here. And now we have from DES Services, she is Doc Brown's wife. And her name is, I forgot to take her name down but there's the picture, and this brings me to Josee Deslongchamps. Josee, trivia for you. What's the name of Doc Brown's wife?

Josee: I have no idea.

Sean: Mrs. Brown.

Rod: Probably. Okay, very good. From the National Life Safety Group, we have Biff Tannen, and that is our very own Jason Reid. Hi, Jason.

Jason: Somebody had to be Biff and I was counting my cards. I knew it was me.

Katherine: It is a striking resemblance.

Rod: Now I suspect our next guest from Apollo Property Management is sort of seeing what's coming down the pipe for him. Yeah, we have Doctor Brown. Sean, how's it going?

Sean: I'll tell you, Rod, if you wanted us to be fresh and rested for this it should have been last week. Happy to be here. It's good to be back.

Rod: Wonderful. And our condo twins are reunited again. They're together this evening. We have here your condo lawyer from Gowling WLG, Marty McFly himself, Graeme MacPherson.

Graeme: Excellent. I got Marty. Also, bringing you the hard hitting news, this is why the people show up. I can confirm that Doc Brown's wife's name, well her maiden name, was Clara Clayton.

Rod: That's right.

Graeme: There you go.

Rod: That's exactly it. But we have a second twin and the second twin is Seamus McFly. Let me go back. There it is!

David: Tremendously done.

Rod: Okay, very good. So you know the drill folks. If you have questions please send them in the chat line. I mean there's a lot of people chatting already. That's wonderful. Just keep it clean and friendly and we'll see if we can pick up some questions from the attendees. Housekeeping matters. I know you come here for the disclaimer. That's what you come here for. So, usual disclaimer. Tonight we're going to be talking about legislation where usually, always actually, referring to Ontario legislation. For those of you listening from elsewhere you may have to do some adaptations to your own jurisdiction. The information we're providing tonight is as accurate as we can and is as of today. Actually in 5 minutes it may be out of date and so today's broadcast is on the 13^th of January. So that's the date of accuracy I guess. Most importantly, whatever information we provide today is general in nature. We do our very best to provide you real sort of practical advice and guidance and information but, at the end of the day, there's nothing like retaining an expert to go and give you advice for your very specific situation. So it's not legal advice you get tonight. It's maybe legal entertainment. That's what you get tonight. And finally, for whatever reason, I have to say that this session is being recorded and in a couple of weeks, or whenever we get to it, we will post it on CondoAdvisor. You'll be able to get to it. Okay, what do we got? Let me change slides. This is the agenda tonight. We're going to start, without further ado, about yesterday's Declaration of Emergency. So just to put it in context, as you all know last December, December 21^st, the Province announced a Province wide shutdown. It was to start on December 26^th, conveniently right after Boxing Day, and it was to last 28 days in Southern Ontario and 14 days in Northern Ontario. They just made it a bit more solid, Northern Ontario, I guess. But unfortunately, COVID numbers didn't go the way they were supposed to go, and a couple of new COVID variants have emerged, Japan, South Africa, England. And so last Thursday Doug Ford announced that the situation was pretty extreme, and that he had some very bad news for us, but we'd have to wait the whole weekend and Monday before he would break the news to us. He said we'd fall off our chair and we did, in fact, yesterday fall off our chair. There was the second sort of Declaration of Emergency. So, Graeme, I'm turning to you now. Walk us through yesterday's declaration.

Graeme: Yes, so thanks very much. Once I managed to pick myself up, and get myself back in my chair, we all took a look at what the Declaration of an emergency would mean and that this point everyone in Ontario is an expert on this. We've been through this song and dance before but basically what's come now is a couple of things are still the same, as they were as of Boxing day, like you said, Rod. You can see on this slide actually that a couple of the items that haven't changed, other than the fact that maybe some have become slightly more restricted, and I think we can expect them to be in place for a longer time. But these items that haven't really changed are you still need to wear masks inside indoor common areas. Indoor organized public events and social gatherings are still a no go. Outdoor organized public events and social gatherings have been brought down from 10 people to 5 and we're going to expand on that a little bit in just a minute. Also gyms, pools and other rec amenities unfortunately have to remain closed. Again, it looks like this is going to be the status quo for a while, at least until it gets re-evaluated in February.

Rod: Okay. So that's what's the same. You're going to cover what's new I guess next.

Graeme: I am. Just like that here we've got it. There have been a couple of things that have changed that have further restricted a lot of what's in place. But I think for a lot of people, depending on what you're doing, you may not feel these changes all that much in your day to day life. The biggest most significant one that I think caught a lot of people's attention was a stay at home order. We were promised more details on that would come, clarifying it, because some people were confused, myself included, about how there could be a gathering limit of 5 and a stay at home order at the same time. I think the clarification that came, as reported by the media today, was that gathering of 5 limit outside is intended for anyone who lives alone is able to at least have some sort of social interaction. But for the most part, when in doubt, stay at home. Another update, which is pretty much just a codification of what everyone was working with before, is that if you are an employee and you can work from home you should. As employers, if you can let your employees work from home, they have to.

Rod: And we're going to cover that a bit later actually.

Graeme: Yes. Masks are now also being recommended outdoors when social distancing isn't possible aka when you can't be more than 2 meters apart from a crowd or somebody else with you in the crowd. Then here's a big one is that non-essential construction work has been restricted again. I expect we're going to get a lot of questions about that. What constitutes non-essential construction work and, Rod, we can get into that now or later if you want.

Rod: A bit later. Just finish with maybe setting the table.

Graeme: Yeah, okay. I think the last piece of cutlery I have to put out at the table here is that the non-essential retail stores, including your big box stores, your hardware stores, liquor stores, they have to restrict their hours between 7:00am and 8:00pm, even if they're doing curbside pickup. But those restrictions don't apply to essential stores like grocery stores, pharmacies, gas stations or restaurants doing take out and delivery.

Rod: Okay. I guess one sort of disclaimer that we have to put forth is that all the information that you have in front of you is really based mainly on the press release and on the information circulated in the media. As of very recently I've checked again to see if any regulations had been issued or if an Order in Council had been issued and I haven't seen that yet. I've seen the Declaration of Emergency that was issued yesterday but I haven't seen sort of the meat and bones around that. Having said that we do have a link on your slide, Graeme, and that link will bring you to some kind of a summary issued by the Province and updated yesterday. I'll try to put that on, actually it's on our latest blog post, there's a link there. So you'll be able to sort of see a lot more detail but that's really for public and media consumption. It doesn't have what gets us lawyers excited. Anything else before I turn to the panel, Graeme?

Graeme: Yeah, I was just going to say it's unfortunate that we don't have the real meat and potatoes regulation to work with yet. I'm sure that will come out right when we press end on this webinar. But I guess that's why the people need to stay tuned. In any event, we can talk about the construction, at least the residential construction that seems to be allowed right now. We can do that now or later? Rod, I am in your hands.

Rod: Sure. Sure. So what can you tell us about the non-essential construction?

Graeme: The construction that's been deemed to be allowed, as least as far as construction for condominiums, both units and full condominium building is concerned is on the full condominium building level, we've been informed that below grade multi-unit residential construction projects, like apartments and condominiums, that can continue. Similarly residential construction projects, and in my view based on what I just said, the part where it specified that residential construction projects for multi-unit places like condominiums, in my view the next part I'm going to read probably, arguably, does refer to unit renovations but residential construction projects where one of three things is in place. Footing permit has been granted for a single family, semi-attached or townhome, a project that is a condominium or mixed use or other residential buildings or projects involving residential renovations for properties where the renovations began prior to January 12^th.

Rod: I think that's the

Graeme: I think that's the money maker.

Rod: Right. The most important one and we may find also other clues under maintenance and repairs which are also deemed to be essential. So the wording itself is this, maintenance, repair and property management services, that's all of you managers here, that manage and maintain the safety, security, sanitation and operations of a property. So if the repair that's being done deals with exactly that, maintaining the safety, security, sanitation and operations of a property or a building, that is essential. Where do we go from there? Denise, what sort of the recommendation right now that we're giving condo corps?

Denise: Well I'm glad that Graeme mentioned that because that's exactly what I was going to mention about renovations that started before January 12^th. So I got these questions yesterday. I didn't know what the answer was. Clients came to us in the midst of their lobby renovation or the pool renovation. Should we proceed or stop the work? Based on what we have here, and the work had commenced before January 12^th, you can proceed but of course you can be more restrictive depending on whether there's a vulnerable population and there's issues with respect to abiding by the health protocol. Too many workers coming in and out. So you can be more restrictive. If you're satisfied that you can follow all the proper protocols then you can continue with the renovations. So that's my position.

Rod: Okay. Very good. Let's see how managers have tackled that. I think I'm going to start with you, Josee, on the Ottawa front. What sort of take from the trenches and then I'll turn to Katherine for the Toronto sort of flavour.

Josee: It's exactly what Denise said. Where a major project is currently underway, especially if it's away from residents, it's a common area where no one's going to have access, provided that the contractors and consultants can abide by our guidelines for distancing and masks and screening, the projects will proceed. No new projects will be started. Some projects that were planned are going to be delayed, obviously, because it's going to interfere with the start of these things. Where it concerns in-unit renovations, at the moment fortunately, we didn't have any major projects in units that we're aware of or owners have requested permission to proceed. Again, I assume that it will be something like it was in the spring where if you're talking about a renovation in-unit that is required to install a toilet or to get water running or to reinstate water, that kind of stuff I have no problem with that. It deals with sanitation and health and hygiene. But now is not the time to undertake a full repainting of your unit or changing the flooring or installing chair rails. Everybody wants that all of a sudden, chair rails. Not essential. This can wait. It's going to have to wait.

Rod: I think that's very much in line certainly with the recommendations we are making now with respect to in-suite renovations. If it's not essential, if it's not required, if it's not urgent it's probably best to delay it. That is fully in line with what's the aim of the game right now. The aim of the game, I mean we've been told to stay home, we stayed home and now we're being told to stay home harder. Stay home a bit harder. Like you can't do that. So if the numbers are not going in the right direction we need to change how we're doing things and so that's the approach we've taken so far, and others have taken so far, when dealing with in-suite renovations. If it's not urgent or required or essential it's probably best to postpone.

Denise: Not if the work was started. If the work was started our recommendation is to continue the work.

Rod: Right and I hear you on that front. I guess my question will be this. It depends what has been started. To me if you finish what you've started, because it's required to be finished, but if you started renovating your unit and what was next was painting the walls I think that would have to wait. But, again, every case will be different. Every case will turn on the very specific, I guess, that's sort of how I see it. Let me turn to Katherine in Toronto. What's the approach?

Katherine: I tend to agree with you, Rod, and of course Toronto has the highest case load as does Peel and York and the surrounding regions. I am very sympathetic to folks who've been trying to complete their renovations now for some time but, clearly, the indication is very much like early on in the pandemic, don't look for loopholes. Look instead for how you can safely terminate or end or temporarily put a stop point on your current construction project. Again, we are thinking about all of the residents and their children being at home so the noise, the smells, all of that is going to be extra irritating as well. As much as we're looking for a neat project like painting or adding chair rails, as Josee had said, not really isn't the time.

Rod: Okay. So that's for reno and as you can see there's 50 shades of grey on that question. With respect to gyms I think, Graeme, your position or your interpretation is pretty clear. Any sort of recreational or fitness facilities, whether it is indoor or outdoor, has to be closed. There's some exceptions for professional sports. There's also exceptions if it's in the context of an institution providing child care or assistance for people with mental health issues.

Graeme: There are certain outdoor facilities that still seem to be allowed.

Rod: Do you have that in front of you? Can you give us examples?

Graeme: I mean things like a horse riding facility I think is probably still allowed. But the point of the list is that, I don't how fancy your condominium is, but unless you've got something like that odds are your facilities are unfortunately going to have to be closed.

Rod: Right. So I have the list here. Baseball diamonds, batting cages, soccer/football fields, tennis platforms, basketball court, BMX parks, skate parks, frisbee golf locations, cycling track, horse riding, shooting ranges. It's funny how shooting ranges always ends up in an exception. I didn't expect that but it is what it is. Ice rink, snowmobile and dog sledding. That's the kind of exceptions we see outdoors. Even this morning somebody reached out to us and said, "Listen. Can we set up some boxes for people to step up and down?" and I'm thinking well that's going to lead very well into the next discussion about slip and falls and liability. But, folks, just close them down. Let people exercise as they may or as they can by taking walks on their own. I realize that this is not good news but we have to do everything we can to sort of follow the direction and the spirit of these new restrictions. Another question that came up, I'm not sure who is going to tackle this one, open houses and real estate showings. Sean, do you want to give us the Ottawa take on this? And maybe I can turn to Denise after that. Do we still have Sean on the line?

Katherine: I think he's muted.

Sean: Yes.

Katherine: First one of the year.

Sean: Rod's been trying to do that for years. In general we look to the real estate board to establish what the guidelines are. They've been pretty proactive in setting out limitations or restrictions on open houses. Of course, as Denise mentioned earlier, the corporation can be more restrictive within reason. But in general we've moved to the appointment setting for realtor appointments and that's since the Boxing Day closures.

Rod: Okay. Denise, anything to add?

Denise: Yeah, Rod, I think that open houses are prohibited.

Rod: Right.

Denise: As far as I know. So it has to be individual appointments.

Rod: Exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we'll still continue with what we're doing on Boxing Day as Sean has, that's exactly it. Now, a question that comes up and this is for your Jason, questions about in-suite fire inspections. I know we were sort of able to skip some of them maybe last spring. Now some people are wondering whether the clock is running out but more so than what's the strict interpretation of these exceptions. The question will be how do you balance a clear need to do these kind of inspections versus what we're all trying to accomplish here is to minimize access and contact between people. So, Jason, what can you tell us about that?

Jason: Well we do have a bit of room so let me clarify one thing. So for essential services such as daily, weekly, monthly, semi-annual and annual and 2 year and 5 year fire code requirements, they're all required. There's not a Province or Territory in the country that has gone out and said that you are alleviated from any type of code compliance. But, as we did back in March, there was a general consensus that the in-suite devices would be likely skipped during that annual inspection for 2020. There is a provision in the in the CAN/ULC S536 which is the standard for testing these devices that are found in suites. There is a clause in here that allows those devices to not be tested because they are inaccessible for a period of 2 years. What that means is those devices must be tested once every 2 years. So where at the 11^th month mark now so we do have some time but this will definitely be something to watch when we approach September.

Rod: Okay. Very good. Graeme, and Katherine and David, I hope you're monitoring the chat here because I don't have enough screens to be able to do that so I'm counting on you to keep the crowd under control.

Graeme: There's actually a question in the Q&A. It's a pretty easy one to quickly address but I thought it worth addressing. One of the questions was do condo business meetings, for the benefit of whole building, do they count as a social gathering? I think the question there is ultimately does the gathering limit apply to that? And it does because that gathering limit, yes it applies to social gatherings, but also to organized public events.

Rod: Right. So I didn't see the question but if the question is as it applies to AGMs or board meetings, is that it?

Graeme: The question just says do the condo related business meetings fall under the category.

Rod: Right. Meetings. So I missed that. Right. For sure. So even though it's not a social event it's a public gathering. It's an organized public gathering. Yeah, for sure. Okay, enforcement. Denise, I think I had you on that and that's a good question. Go ahead.

Denise: It's a tough question because I would love it if the Province set out the Provincial officers, whether they're police or bylaw enforcements, to enforce residents that don't comply in the corporation. I haven't seen it yet. I don't know if you have. What we're told is that they're going to be more active now and there will be penalties and prosecution for those that don't comply. So how will all affect condominium corporations? We don't know. We're telling our boards, and management, that you really have to determine whether something becomes a danger to other residents, and if so, that you have take steps yourself. Whether that means going to court, what we had the other day was somebody wasn't wearing a mask and the manager's question to me was, what do we do? Can we deactivate the fobs? I said, "Well, have you asked the person to wear their mask? Have you sent out notice to the owners to tell them what can happen if you don't wear the mask?" Before you take those steps you really need to do that but there are other ways to carry out the enforcement and one was deactivating the fobs. So I don't know. We'll have to see what happens with the Province.

Rod: Right. We'll certainly will have to see and I think though when you have, I think it's an additional tool that we may have available to us if in fact there's an egregious sort of repeated breach, the same way we would tell our clients sometimes, "Well, if this is taking place call the cops." I mean if somebody is sending their dog at you or throwing flower pots or chairs over the balcony railing or if this and that the other is happening, it's okay to call enforcement. To call bylaw. To call the police. Now I'm not sure you necessarily want to get them involved in every time that somebody shows up not wearing the mask. So it's going to be a bit of a judgment call. Really, enforcement to me, there's two layers that I wanted to explore and I think we've hit them. It's whether or not we can use these third parties to help us. The other question, maybe for you Denise, is to what extent do we want to facilitate them doing their jobs. Obviously if there's a party in 306, and 305 is the one that is calls in bylaw, to what extent do we want to facilitate that? What's your take on it?

Denise: Well, the bottom line is boards and management are looking after the residents welfare. So if it's a situation where you need to look after the residents you need to take steps and to take steps under the enforcement provisions. So it will be a judgment call. It will be a situation where you may have vulnerable residents so that you have to take additional steps. Really, no one size fits all.

Rod: Right, right, right. One of the questions we had, and then maybe we'll move on, is whether or not you need to be shown a warrant before you let them transit throw the common elements. I'm not sure what your view, Denise, on that but I really don't think that you want to be obstructive in any way, shape or form. That's how I would sort of approach it.

Denise: Yeah. We're dealing with the pandemic now so the protocol that we followed before, and the case decisions we had, things are a bit different now. So we've got to keep in mind that we're looking after the safety and security of our residents. What steps do you have to take and you don't want to obstruct the police? If you have reason to assist them then I think that's best to do in these circumstances.

Rod: Right. We've spoken about this in the past, in a different context, but it may be worth having a look at whether or not the corporation wants to have a policy in place where it is clear that they will have to facilitate in all the work of public safety and this, that and the other. There may be something there so as least everybody is sort of fair warned that, I'm not suggesting you turn over your security cameras, actually that's a different webinar altogether, but I'm just suggesting that maybe if you have a policy in place that sort of gives some guidance as to how this corporation will facilitate and will assist in any way shape or form they can. Public security. Sean, I'm going to turn to you now. This work from home directive, does that affect at all how management is done?

Sean: It does on a few different levels. For us at Apollo we have almost 100 employees almost half of whom are on site, would be site staff. The balance are property managers or admin and accounting support. So in March we shutdown to bare bones and about 10 people in the office, gradually ramping up through the months, and with this new order we're reverting right back to March. Effectively, anyone who can work from home, must work from home and we facilitate that where we can. A lot of property management cannot be done remotely so obviously we're considered essential and need to be onsite as needed. But for whatever can be done remotely must be done.

Rod: Okay. Wonderful. I think we're moving onto another very hot topic and it has to do with reporting obligations. I know we're running out of time so I got to keep moving forward. But reporting obligation, I'm going to turn to you David. Two things that almost sort of took place unnoticed. Last December, December 18^th, the Ottawa Public Health issued a letter of instruction and Toronto did the same on January 4^th, and if I summarize it before I turn it to you, David, basically it's imposing on certain organizations an obligation to report when you have two positive cases within a short period of time. To you know, David. What can you tell us?

David: As you said it is one of those things that came out and kind of went under the radar and it was one of those instruction letters and no one really knew who it applied to and in what context and what industries. Now that we have one in Toronto it got a little more fanfare, I think, than the Ottawa one that came out earlier in December. The wording is a little confusing. It's in connection to the workplace and it defines workers very broadly and workplace very broadly. As we see on the screen, any land, premises, location or thing at, upon, or in or near where a worker works. So I know there's been some attempts by lawyers and by managers to reach out to the public health authorities to figure out how does this affect condos and I think our managers are lined up to kind of talk about how they've been viewing it and they've been trying to comply, let's say, with those directions.

Rod: Okay, so basically if there are two known positive cases, within 14 days in connection with the workplace, you have to report that to the public authority. I'm going to put the numbers on the screen and you'll also be able when this is uploaded you'll be able to click on it and see the actual letter. So I'm going to sort of divide this in two. I'm going to first tackle it from the employer's perspective. I'm not sure, Jason, if you want to add anything to that. So from an employer's perspective what that does kind of mean or what does it bring to the forefront?

Jason: Well it highlights a couple of different things. Number one is that you have to adjust now your outbreak response procedures. Those were the ones that we talked about back in later in March. Where we talked about the condo corporation acting as a workplace. Identifying what the condo corporation is responsible for doing when there is an outbreak within their building. Who they have to notify. Who they have to tell. What precautions do they need to do? What do they need to tell the other employees? That plan's already in place. All we're doing is tweaking it so that now, in the event there is two or more positive tests within 14 days within any connection of that, and you mentioned very eloquently that that workplace includes the surrounding property, outside the building, inside the building, so when you're doing screening for the essential workers coming to your workplace, that's what you're doing. You're pre-screening them when they arrive. Or you're screening them at the door. Whether you're doing it digitally or you're having their service providers do it before even they report to work. That's the best way to do it. Remember we talked about that back in March where we said send your service providers a communication to ensure that they are doing this before they report to the building. That doesn't alleviate you from doing it at the entrance to the workplace, or at your front door, but it gives you that added protection and now they've set this in stone so those response procedures need to be updated with that information to reflect the two or more positive tests within 14 days. So what does it mean for employers? Real quickly, it means to get back to basics, Rod. It means that we should be auditing our cleaning. Number one. Because we haven't done that in 9 months. Proactive organizations probably doing it every 30 days. Good for you. But a good chunk of organizations, we haven't done that. Number two, I would also sit down with my employees and I would review how to wear a mask again. I would review how to wash your hands. I would review where they should be eating lunch and taking breaks. I would also review the requirement now for all employees to wear masks, inside and outside, on the property. Any area in relation to this workplace of a condo corporation. I'd review that with each employee and I'd have them sign that document that says I've reviewed the following with this date and time. That does two things. One, it solidifies your education with your employees. Two, they understand the importance of it, and three, the condo corporation has strict documentation in the event that it's ever needed.

Rod: Right. Okay. This is very useful. I think what's very clear though is that these letters of direction apply to a workplace. They apply to whatever staff you may have on place. Whatever employees, whatever contractors, so when it deals with employment I think that's pretty clear that it applies and that you have to deal with it. I think one thing that we did mention in the past, and I think it's worth repeating here, is that if you're going to screen the contractors that come in and the employees that come in and so on, especially the contractors, I think it's important to also get from them an undertaking that if they go back home ,and they later develop symptoms or they later get tested and show to be positive, they've got to bring this information back to you because it's really no use if the information doesn't come back to you. At least that's how to approach it. Now, let's turn this slightly and have a look it from a different perspective. We dealt with employees. What about condo owners? Does this mean, and Denise I'm going to turn to you now to lead this discussion, do these letters of instructions, is the reporting obligation triggered if those reporting the positive case are owners as opposed to employees?

Denise: I don't think the intention was for this to apply but I think, Rod, you brought this to my attention and I called Toronto Public Health. Of course, I didn't really get an answer. The confirmation I got was that we can't tell you it doesn't apply to condominium corporations. So that means, well, perhaps it does apply and we are erring on the side of caution. So what is the harm in reporting if you know of two residents? That's if you know. I guess we're going to talk about that soon. Right?

Rod: Right, right. Okay, so, I got the same kind of answer from Public Health which is a bit of non-committal answer but basically I think what I was kind of getting was, well listen, if you hadn't asked the answer would be if there's two cases that are totally unrelated, have nothing to do, these people never left their unit or there was no employee to deal with or to talk to, and you have two unrelated cases maybe it doesn't trigger this obligation. But I also agree with you, Denise, that there's really no harm in reporting.

Denise: Right. How do you know if these two are unrelated? So one lives on floor 1 and one lives on the 10^th floor, how do you know? Maybe they do get together.

Rod: Right. Or maybe they did speak to the super. Or maybe they did to the concierge. That's the issue. So then how do we get that information, Denise? Can we go and demand it from owners? Can we impose that reporting obligation?

Denise: I think the approach has been, and I think management in our panel here would speak to that, what we've done since March corporations are sending out notices to residents and advising them if they do have an outbreak to report it. Reporting it in a positive manner so that it serves to benefit that owner so that management can assist them in taking out their garbage. Getting people to come forward because they know it will assist them, if they provide that information, and also confirming that that information is private and it will only be disclosed to staff that are required to assist that resident. Other than that other residents won't know that they have COVID.

Rod: Right, right, right. Somebody in the chat is actually reminding me that, and I'm not sure if I can name them, but very famous person actually in the management industry, who has got a sense from public health in Toronto that in fact if they are unrelated to the workplace, if these two cases are not related to the workplace, you don't have to report them. That's kind of sort of the sense I also got but the difficulty, as Denise pointed out, is how do we know if they're relating to the workplace? If they spoke to or interacted with the concierge or with the security or with whatever staff you have on place. So let's turn to the managers and I'm going to turn to you, Katherine, first. How do we get cooperation from the owners on that front? What's the message you're sending out, if any?

Katherine: It's certainly you get more flies with sugar than you do with vinegar approach. Sean and Josee, I think, will agree with me in saying that. What you're looking to do is facilitate their effective self-isolation during this period. We certainly don't want anybody to be vilified in the community or for there to be excess concern. We want everybody to be able to be at home and safe, and for the folks who consider this to be their workplace, they can also ensure that they are safe. So if we do have a positive case, as Jason said previously, it's a restatement, a reiteration of all of the precautions that should already be taken on a daily basis. In communities where you aren't fortunate enough to have enough staff to facilitate some of the garbage collection and things like that we had spoken, earlier in the pandemic, about some volunteer type groups and use of waivers in order to facilitate that and for things as simple as going to get groceries. It's going to get challenging, again, the way it was before.

Rod: Okay. So I'm being told by my magicians that we're running out of time so this is where we're going to start speaking really quickly because we need to cover everything. So, Josee, I'm going to turn to you and I guess my question to you on this topic before we close it off is what do we do with this information once we do get information? So an owner, other than reporting it to Public Health, owners turn to you and say I've tested positive and so on and so forth. What do you do with this?

Josee: Well, you thank them for communicating with you because clearly they don't have to. They are doing it on a voluntary basis. You find out from them what they need. You give them guidance, of course. Remind them that they may not leave the unit. They shouldn't be traveling to the laundry room. They shouldn't be traveling to the garbage room. Set up a system in place within your community with the resources that you have available, either staff or volunteers, and make sure that they receive the support that they need so that they can remain at home, comfortable and be well. Personally, I'd check in on them by email, just simply because I'm a den mother and just want to make sure everything is going well. But keep an eye on your staff as well and keep touch with that person, or other staff or volunteer, who are helping this person and make sure that you are kind of gauging and monitoring what's going on there as well so that you're aware if there's some kind of contamination that occurs. At the end of it all we of course document everything to file and due diligence. But other than that it's going to happen. It's not whether or not it's going to happen. It is going to happen in most of our communities.

Rod: For sure. Okay. So I'm going to turn to one of the two twins for a flash question. So what information do we provide the rest of the community when we know of two units that have been infected, let's say? Who's going to take that on? Twin number one? Twin number two?

Graeme: I can, yeah sure. Let's do it. So the question being what goes to all of the other owners?

Rod: Right. Right. Do we tell them that Katherine in unit 306 has been infected and that she has a habit of licking elevator buttons?

Graeme: That's a loaded question, I think. There's a whole lot to unpack there but at the very least I would say no, we don't want to tell any names or give any identifying information in fairness to the person who is COVID positive. We want to make sure that their information is protected. The next set of questions becomes do we want to narrow it down at all? Do we want to say what floor it's on? Do we want to say what wing of the building it's on? I don't think there is a yes / no clear answer to that question. I think it's something that can be decided based on how your building is set up or if you're not even in the high rise building which, admittedly, we have been talking a lot about but as we know some condominiums are just a series of townhomes. So I think you can, as a board and probably in conjunction with your lawyer, talk about what level of identifying information with respect to this area of the building, perhaps, but certainly you don't want to fingerprint this person.

Rod: Right. Okay. We're out of time. We need to go onto the main topic, today's topic, and it deals with vaccination. There's going to be three questions that we're going to tackle right now. Question one, can condos require vaccination? Question number two, can vaccinated owners demand access to the amenities? That's going to come. This question is about to come. And, should condo corporations get involved in immunization campaigns? Now, those are the topics that we're going to try to tackle but before I get started I have to say this. I have to say that I think, to some extent, this discussion is a bit premature. And it's premature for a couple of reasons. Although it is premature I wanted to be the first one to have it because the question has been asked since mid-December, I guess. It's a bit premature because vaccines are not readily available right now so it's not a question that you're going to face anytime soon, I think. There's a 1.003%25 of the Ontario population that has been vaccinated, so at this rate it's going to take us 6 years to vaccinate everybody, and we've used already about 78%25 of our doses. More are coming. Don't panic people at home. So that's the first reason why it's a bit premature. Also, what's not clear yet is whether it is a one shot deal. We don't know how long the immunization protection lasts. Is this going to be a yearly thing? That too is an important consideration in the debate. And most importantly we don't know yet how Public Health or Public Authorities or how the Province or how the Federal level will deal with this vaccine and whether or not they'll make it mandatory. We do know at this stage, for instance, that only three Provinces mandate vaccines. Not this vaccine but kids for various sort of illnesses that usually affect the young ones. Only three Provinces mandate it; Ontario, New Brunswick and, to a lesser extent, Manitoba. That's only required if you're going to send your kids to public school and there's all sorts of exceptions. So I think the discussion is a bit premature on that sense but now that I took all of the wind out of Denise's sails, Denise.

Denise: I was going to answer all three questions in a very short way.

Rod: Do it.

Denise: I was going to say, no, no and maybe.

Rod: Okay.

Denise: No. Can you impose vaccinations?

Rod: Right. I agree.

Denise: And if you've said it all, really, until it's mandated by the Government you have reasons why people can't get vaccinated. Religious reasons, human right issues so how can you force it? And then think about it. If you did enforce it I would love to hear from managers how are we going to keep track of who's been vaccinated? And at what period? Wait the 2 week period? It's just not possible. Not at this point.

Rod: Right. So the second question being can a vaccinated owner demand access to the amenities?

Denise: I think it's important that you discussed it this week because we're starting to get those questions. So I think I we need to be prepared for the questions and know how to answer it. My position is, no, that you will have to wait until it's safe to open up all the amenities. Once it is then you can deal with the protocols on who's had a vaccination but you really need to wait. I would hope that everybody else on the panel agrees with this. Let's just keep the amenities closed until we know that it's safe to do so.

Rod: Right. So safe for everybody and don't leave anybody behind kind of thing. And, Josee, yesterday you raised a good point about opening facilities for vaccinated people. You had a good point. Do you recall it?

Josee: Yes.

Rod: No. Go ahead.

Josee: Yes. My point was no. I'm a strong opponent of that idea. I really honestly believe the condominium corporations should be staying in their lane. It is not the condominium corporation's mandate to offer medical services or to open its facilities to medical service providers.

Rod: You're on the next topic. Sorry. Cut back. Cut back.

Josee: That's what you said.

Rod: No, no. So yesterday you raised a good point which is the fact that you're vaccinated doesn't mean that you cannot carry the virus and infect other people. So the fact you're vaccinated doesn't really give you a green pass to be able to go in the gym. I think that's how I understood your point yesterday.

Josee: I made two excellent points yesterday and that was the other one. But yes, from everything I've read so far there is no evidence and certainly the medical community cannot confirm that having been vaccinated, even with the second does, is going to prevent you from being a carrier and infecting others. So having been vaccinated you may not have symptoms, you may not know that you have it, but attending facility or being in contact with others will put them at risk. So for that very reason I don't think you can open to certain people and not to others. I would also very much be concerned with creating a subclass of people in a building. You're going to create some discrimination. Who has been and who hasn't. The ins and outs and all that kind of stuff, you don't want to go there. Open for everyone or closed for everyone.

Rod: Right. And back to the first question that we sort of answered quickly, can we impose vaccination? I guess there's going to be all sorts of logistical problem behind whether or not somebody was vaccinated and then how are you going to keep track of that? Were not in the business of keeping that kind of medical information. Are you going to have to keep track of who got the first dose and who got the second dose and who is on the Pfizer category and who's on the Moderna one. There's all sorts of issues with respect to that but something we did sort of jump over. I guess the consensus is you can't demand vaccination from the owners. By the way, this may very well change. Don't hold us to it. Who knows in 5 or 6 or 9 or 10 months we may have actually have more information and it may enlighten our knowledge. But something we sort of very briefly jumped over is what about can we demand vaccination from our staff? Can we demand vaccination for our contractors? Again, it's a bit premature because there's only 1%25 of Ontarians that have been vaccinated but this is a bit maybe different when you're dealing with contractors and staff. I can this is that there are some cases already that provide some guidance, some limited guidance, and these cases all dealt with the flu season and the flu vaccine, and most of these cases were in a hospital setting or long term care facility setting where the management wanted their nurses, their staff, to be vaccinated and, in all cases, they were providing employees with the option that you either vaccinate or you wear a mask for the duration of the flu season. It's been contested on a couple of occasions and the case ... is a bit all over. Some cases came back where they said as long as it is supported by evidence and as long as your providing staff with options, mask or vaccinate, some Provinces have upheld them. Other Provinces have not upheld them and have concluded that as long as it is unmandated you probably cannot impose that. Unfortunately we don't have a clear answer yet. I do think that time will tell. You want to make sure that your corporation is not the name of the case but we'll find out more as things evolve. I think it will be different. This case will be different from how the flu situation has been addressed in the sense that the efficacy of the current vaccine, so far, appears to far exceed the efficacy we have of the yearly flu shot. Anyways, more to come but I think if you can demonstrate that it's a bona fide requirement for the employment that's the starting point of the discussion to whether or not you should be able to demand that your staff be vaccinated. I don't know if anybody wants to add anything. Denise or the twins? Anything to add to that? No. I'll take your silence.

Denise: No. We want to talk about immunization around the common elements.

Rod: That's the one. Right. So that's the last question that we wanted to tackle which is should corporations get involved in immunization campaigns? Should they set up a shot clinic in the amenity room and so on and so forth? And, folks, you'll hear tonight that there are two schools of thoughts on this. You will hear from the stay in your laners and you will hear from the check your blind spotters who think that maybe there's a way to move forward. So let's go ahead with, Denise, do you want to take the first kick at it?

Denise: Well, normally I say stay in your lane. But on this one I've been convinced otherwise and that's because I've been dealing with a lot of attorneys in the US, in particular the State of Florida, where they have huge homeowner associations. The only way that they're going to get to the residents to get the vaccination is by doing it in large groups and facilitating that kind of program, I don't see an issue with it. Of course, the first thing you want to do is call your insurer. You'll want to make sure that you're insured and then find out, from whoever's providing it, whether they require anything from the condominium corporation. Usually an indemnity and release and that's okay if you then in turn get that from the resident who is vaccinated that they will sign the release. Look, we are here to try to help our communities and I'm saying we're not in the ... health care provider but there's nothing wrong with facilitating.

Rod: Right. Katherine, you had some experience in the past. Now mind you we were dealing with the flu shots but what can you share with us?

Katherine: It was something that the board and the community were really quite adamant about doing and facilitating and they engaged with a private health company who administered all of the vaccinations and, of course, took in all of the forms that were required. It certainly wasn't mandatory or compulsory but it was something that was probably the single most well received COVID related item that that corporation has undertaken. They're on record as being first on line, if and when, they are able to host such a vaccination clinic for their residents for the COVID vaccine. It is something that there have been lots of inquiries about it. I don't know that I think it's any different from corporations that have hosted blood donor clinics or polling stations for elections. It's more of a facility of a convenience than it is providing the medical services.

Rod: Okay. So you guys heard now from the check your blind spotters. Toronto is coming across as the friendlier, softer, kinder, loving community that it is and so, for once, I think the party poopers are going to come from Ottawa. We're going to be the stay in your laners.

Graeme: Does not match the weather.

Rod: That's right. I have a lot of concerns with this and many of them, Denise, in fairness to you you've identified them. There's all sorts of liability attached to that. What if something goes wrong? What if there's a medical emergency? What is somebody reacts to the vaccine? How can we ensure that it's the right vaccine that's provided? How can we ensure that these vaccines were stored properly and they weren't tampered with? How do we deal with the traffic to and from the party room for their shots? To me there's all sort of challenges that I really don't see a huge benefit. I would be far more inclined to tell people, "Listen. Go to the pharmacy. You want the vaccine, go to the pharmacy." I do think, very respectively, I do see a big difference between that and polling stations. The whole concept of this pandemic is how it spreads. So I think the last thing I want to do is have anything to do with bringing people to and from a certain location. That's sort of my take. I think if somebody was to ask for my opinion on it I'd probably say that's not our business. We're not that business. Don't get involved. Shots are going to be available at all pharmacies and so on and so forth. In fact, today, there's a regulation that came out authorizing nurses and pharmacists to give the shot. I think it's going to be ruled out to the pharmacy level. But I kind of see also like how we would want to help people and so I understand, sort of, the push for that. Sean, Josee, anything to add from the manager's perspective?

Sean: I think I lean towards your line of thinking as well except to the extent that my Christmas wish to a lot of people was I hope that next year we're not talking about this at the same time, in December 2021. We will be, in fact, and the only way we won't be is if enough people get vaccinated. So I think if it came down to it that there was a shortage of space to vaccinate, or to get people vaccinated, the Government requested or required or Ottawa Public Health required assistance, I think there'd be an argument for doing it but it's not something that I would look at seeking out and trying to push the envelope on. There's a process in place. A prioritization in place and if we fit within that, great. If we don't, then we'll get there when we get there.

Rod: Right, right, right. Josee?

Josee: I jumped the gun on this one before but you heard it already. I'm very much a stay in your lane person on this topic. I really think there are tons of great facilities out there who are going to be able to do this and roll it out much more effectively and efficiently than a condominium corporation can. I think the stress that it's going to put on the staff and on the community, on the people who are working there, is going to be significant. I think that you're going to jeopardize the privacy for a lot of people as they see each other coming in and out. They're going to know who was vaccinated, who was not. Who I didn't see. Someone waiting to see who's walking in and out, never a good idea, and in a world where the insurance companies are looking for a reason to not renew your policies and cancel your policies, I think if you start calling in with these kinds of odd requests where you're stepping out of your lane trying to do that kind of stuff, you're just giving them fodder for a reason to cancel or not renew.

Rod: I think what's important to take from this discussion we just had, the fact that you've heard pro first and the party poopers afterwards, it doesn't mean that one is right or wrong and it wasn't a popularity debate we had tonight by having this discussion. I think it shows the complexity of the situation and the difficult decisions that everybody has to face. I think that's what I'd like people to leave with. I guess also pick the lawyer that has the view that's closer to your views. If you put 5 lawyers in a room you'll have 12 different opinions but I really want this to be, as I said, not a popularity contest and who's right and who's wrong, there's really two sides to this and I think that's what we should walk away with. At least that's my perspective. Okay, folks, we're at the end. It's 6:01 and I want to go around to thank everybody as we usually do and so we will do this. You really have literally 10 seconds each. I'm going to start with you, Sean. Thank you so much for participating again. Any words of wisdom before we go?

Sean: No. Like I said hopefully I was a little more rested last week so a little off of my game tonight. But great to be back. I need to hurry up and get home before the curfew starts in my neighbourhood. So I'm on my way.

Rod: That's right. Perfect. Josee, from DES Services, thank you so much again for joining us tonight. Any sort of parting words?

Josee: I agree with Sean. For reasons unknown this week is absolutely insane. Just everyone take a breath, slow down, it will be okay. We'll get through this. We've done it before. Keep your sense of humour.

Rod: Right and Josee's home already so that's perfect. Katherine Gow from Crossbridge, she's been here from the beginning, speaking on behalf of ACMO. Katherine, any parting words?

Katherine: Think the best of the other guy and consider very carefully how you're going to set up your expectations for each other. We'll get through it. We did before. We can again.

Rod: One of my favourite condo lawyers but certainly my favourite blogger, Denise Lash, from Lash Condo Law. Denise, any parting words?

Denise: I was going to say this is a great topic tonight because I think that all boards and managers are going to get these questions so now you know the answers, well, at least you know how to respond.

Rod: Right. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Denise, for being with us tonight. Jason Reid, from the National Life Safety Group. Jason, we put your topic at the beginning so we didn't run out of time. Thanks so much for being here every week. Any words of wisdom before we go? I think he's muted. Yes, the second muter.

Jason: Sorry. We developed some plans, whether they're one page or two page, last March. It's time to reinvigorate them and go back to the basics. I can't stress that enough. The number one cause for work place transmission is typically found in the break rooms where staff are having their lunches and they're mingling at that point. So that's a big fact that you can take back to your teams because we do a really good job of protecting them but when they're off on break we're going to make sure that they're aware of their obligations as well.

Rod: Okay. Twin number one. Words of wisdom, David?

David: Great to be back as well. I missed out on the last one, recuperating, getting back to normal. So my parting words is similar to Jason's thought. We're now in a new year and all of these new restrictions are coming our way that affect different people and different populations in different ways. Take the opportunity to review your policies internally and to really think about how you could augment and make sure all your bases are covered for the coming year.

Rod: Okay and twin number two, in no particular order. Graeme, any parting words before we go?

Graeme: Thanks for the clarifier there. I think my word of wisdom is just going to be in light of the stay at home order we're going to have a lot more people at the same time all staying in their units. That might lead to some friction, some noise, some issues like that. Try to be patient with one another. Try to work with people to address these problems and, where at all possible, try to avoid World War III.

Rod: Okay. Wonderful. Thank you very much everybody. So next Webinar's going to be Wednesday, February 3^rd. There's something we really want to encourage all of you to do. The Government is consulting on the future of electronic voting and virtual meetings so I know, Denise, you have blogged about that and you've put the link and we've done it as well. So, look for your favourite blogger and find the link to provide your views to the Government on electronic voting, virtual meetings, what am I forgetting, Denise?

Denise: Board meetings.

Rod: Right.

Katherine: Notices. So being able to circulate notices without the consent form that the Government ...

Rod: So basically the question is are we dragging the condo land industry into this century or do you want it to go back to the Flintstone ages when the emergency is over? Can we make more permanent the changes that were made. I think there's good reasons to do so but I think share your views or concerns so they do develop regulations that confine or give some guidance so it doesn't turn into the far west again. Anyways, so here we are, folks. It's the end of this webinar. Next month, February 3^rd, at the same time although I think I'm going to poll people about whether or not this is a good time to meet. You'll need to register again. You'll be able to register by going to CondoAdvisor, clicking on the webinar tab and it will bring you to the registration form. You'll also be able to see past webinars by accessing it through the webinar tab. So that's it, folks. Can't thank you enough for having spared the time to join us tonight. Wishing you all the best. Wear a mask, wash your hands, be friendly with the neighbours but not too friendly. Talk to you soon. Take care everybody.