The Space: Leadership and law - episode one

Emma Dennis: Welcome to The Space where we break down barriers and perceptions about a career in law by talking to the talented people of Gowling WLG. I am Emma Dennis, the diversity inclusion and wellbeing senior manager at Gowling WLG so join me as we get to dive under the surface and understand the diverse experiences and perspectives of our people, how they have got to where they are and what they wished they had known.

Hi Sam

Samantha Myers: Hello

Emma: Thanks for being here today. It is so good to have you. How are you doing first?

Samantha: I am good. Thank you very much for having me.

Emma: So, I think if my research is correct that you have been at the firm since 2015?

Samantha: Yes.

Emma: Did you always know that you wanted to be a lawyer.

Samantha: No absolutely not. I actually thought as a kid I would do something with horses or animals, and actually my family were persuading to be a vet but then I did do a legal foundation course and enjoyed it and actually that led to me wanting to go on and qualify as a lawyer. So, actually what I started doing in Bournemouth where I first worked was a legal executive course, so I qualified as a legal executive first and then decided I wanted to go and become a solicitor so I did the GDL and the LPC and moved to London basically so did all of that working full time so studying part time and did the whole lot through started at a firm in Bournemouth, moved to London, carried on a firm called Stewarts, which is a litigation practice and I decided when I was there I wanted to get more into corporate so I moved to Osborne Clark so finished my, I suppose, qualification when I was at Osborne Clark and then moved to Gowling in 2015.

Emma: Was it that attracted you to law? What specifically made you sort of go from that thing of thinking you were going to do something with animals to then something completely different.

Samantha: I think, so I really enjoyed the foundation course I did and actually that was I think it was a legal exec based course and it was very much like I think housing, employment law and stuff like that and I think it was just really helpful and I thought this is actually quite helpful on a day-to-day basis anyway, but I think it was the kind of curiosity and the ongoing learning in a weird way. You are always having to stay updated, you're always having to learn something and actually when new things come out or there are new sectors or there are new pieces of legislation you have to learn that and be on top of it and I quite enjoy that but actually one of the reasons I moved from litigation to corporate was actually because I didn't really feel like I related to litigation and I could relate more to the brands and the corporates that you see on the high street or you read about in the papers and you can understand a bit more about them because you know who they are and what they do. So, it is kind of more tangible you understand what you are doing, and I just thought partly the ongoing learning partly actually this is quite interesting. I really enjoy the deal making and I think as I have done the work it is the deal making and the transactions that has kept me doing it really.

Emma: And your route into law you mentioned earlier your qualification route I guess when you did it wasn't the standard.

Samantha: Yes absolutely right. So, I didn't go to university, so I finished school at my A-Levels. I did think about going to university and I wanted to do management science and I was looking at Loughborough, but decided that I did not particularly enjoy my A-Levels at the school I was at, at the time decided I didn't want to go to university so actually thought what can I do that doesn't involve me going to university and I found the legal executive qualification, as I said part-time, and you could do that whilst working and I needed to get qualifying employment so I was working in law firms originally actually in general office and then moved into a trainee legal exec position.

So, I started the legal exec course part-time, qualified through that and you become a Fellow of the Institute when you have done two years qualifying employment which I had because I had been working in law firms at the time and decided I wanted to qualify as a solicitor and move, but when I started doing the legal exec stuff that was in Bournemouth and actually the firm that I worked at at the time, Coles Miller were great because they understood the process, they had a qualified legal executive, a Fellow who was actually a partner equivalent in the Pensions team, or Wills team, and they kind of got it. But what I realised when I was interviewing to move to London actually at the time, and this was back in 2006, nobody really knew what the legal exec qualification was, they obviously understood the law degree and the traditional university process but they didn't under ILEX or that actually it is a legal qualification that means you can practice because half the qualification is case law and the other half is practice, same as being the law degree and then your LPC. So, getting into law firms up here was a bit more tricky partly because they didn't understand the legal exec route or the qualification route but then when you say you are doing the GDL which is graduate development law conversion, they understood that and they understood the training process so I was kind of on a more level playing field then, but lots of conversations with HR and firms trying to explain what the legal exec course was, what it means in terms of qualification, explaining that GDL was a top-up to actually being equivalent to a law degree and then explaining that the LPC was normal like it was for everyone else. So, it was novel at the time.

Gowling obviously support that now, we have apprentices doing the legal exec course which I think is amazing because you get that legal experience when you are working as well as studying so actually we are supporting people who want to come through and don't want to do the traditional route like me, but actually have the support of a firm like this and the varied sectors and the practice areas and can actually get a lot more experience in a commercial law firm so I think it is brilliant. I found it really hard, I'm not going to say it was an easy way to qualify and to be honest, hand on heart, I would not have picked it because I think it was super hard for me and actually credit to Osborne Clark because they took me on as a paralegal in Corporate - Adrian Barr, shout out to Adrian - took a chance on me and put me in corporate and I loved it so I stayed and qualified there and yeah no looking back but it is really hard work so to all of the people that we have here massive 'kudos' to them because they are all working really hard studying as well as the day job.

Emma: Yeah. A lot to take on.

Samantha: Yes, no time for hobbies. laughs.

Emma: And then you were posted to partner back in 2021. Did you always want partnership? Was that always the aim?

Samantha: Yes. I had decided I think when I wanted to move from being a legal exec to a solicitor that was the target. So that was always the plan.

Emma: Did you have any preconceptions about partnership before you were promoted or anything you thought it was going to be like that now you have got a different view of it now you have made it to partner?

Samantha: I think it is difficult on preconceptions. I thought it would be hard work. There are lots of things as a non-partner that a senior person in the team that you want to know more about and you want to understand more about or you don't think you can see progressing and I think the really nice thing about being on the other side of the fence, as it were, is actually you can see that as progressing and it has been for a while it is just that you weren't privy to that information beforehand for obvious reasons and actually there is a load of stuff going on behind the scenes that unless you were in the partnership you wouldn't necessarily know about and it announced at the right time to the rest of the firm.

I suppose what I had not quite realised and you realise rapidly in your first year, or at least I did and I think it is probably fair to say most of my cohort did as well, is how much extra there is to do so it is not just the fee earning and business development, winning the clients and doing the work, it's a bit of HR, it is team support stuff, it's representing the firm, it's a lot of other stuff as well, so there is quite a lot of learning I think in year one. I think year two has been slightly easier in terms of you know a bit more about how it is all working. But definitely pleased I went through it. If anyone is thinking about going for it, I would say go for it still but jut have your eyes open to how hard it can be.

Emma: And how do you manage to balance a demanding job and then work-life balance and outside of work?

Samantha: Yeah it's a good question. I don't think I really have ay hobbies so I mean like keeping fit, running and stuff but I don't know really. It is a tricky one. I'm in a transactional team so we go through fits and starts of being busy and quiet and actually I tend to make the most of it when it is quiet and just get used to it when it is busy so I'm used to that and I have been probably ever since I was at Osborne Clark and I've been in corporate the whole time you can't of get to learn the cycles so make the most of the time you are not busy and go out and do stuff then and get away. But I think it is especially with Covid, I think we've all learnt we need to find things that you can relax or chill out or be mindful with so whether that is yoga or meditating or whatever or having facials or going for run, or going horse riding, whatever it is you want to do, work out what those things are. So, I worked out what works for me in terms of chilling out and getting out and calming down outside the office, just make sure you have time for those and acknowledge I think there is always a light at the end of the tunnel, it is you have just to get to that light and then you will have the relaxation time.

Emma: We will take a short break now and when we are back, we will find out more about Sam's experience of sponsorship and the advice that she would give to those who are earlier in their careers.

Emma: Welcome back to part two. We are going to kick off Sam with some quickfire questions to get to know you a little bit more.

Samantha: OK.

Emma: And they are just some silly questions so we will start off with some general ones that should be relatively easy.

Samantha: OK.

Emma: And we will go through them quickly. What was your first job?

Samantha: I worked in a shop, food shop. I actually worked at the shop at the stables.

Emma: Nice. Where did you grow up?

Samantha: A bit of Surrey, a bit of Dorset.

Emma: What time do you usually wake up in the morning?

Samantha: 5.30 but not because I want to.

Emma: Wow. If you had a choice, what time would you wake up in the morning?

Samantha: About eight!

Emma: Is your bed made right now?

Samantha: Yeah.

Emma: Well done, mine isn't. What is your favourite breakfast?

Samantha: Honestly? Pancakes, bacon and maple syrup.

Emma: Nice choice! What is your dream holiday destination?

Samantha: OK that is not a fair question. Ibiza. Because I go there every year.

Emma: I have never been.

Samantha: It's amazing, you should go. Let me know if you need any tips.

Emma: I'll let you know when I book my holiday, I'll come too for tips. What is your hidden talent?

Samantha: Oh my God it's definitely not cooking. I don't have a hidden talent, horse riding.

Emma: What is your go-to karaoke song?

Samantha: Living on a Prayer. Laughs. Which I absolutely murder so I'll definitely not be doing that though.

Emma: I like that one. Right now these are some either or questions. Cats or dogs?

Samantha: Cats.

Emma: Would you rather fly or have super strength?

Samantha: What I could fly myself?

Emma: Yeah.

Samantha: I'd fly.

Emma: For anybody that couldn't see then I did flapping wings.

Samantha: Definitely fly. I'd be on holiday every five minutes it would be great.

Emma: Are you more of an introvert or extrovert?

Samantha: Extrovert.

Emma: Night in or night out?

Samantha: Out.

Emma: Would you rather travel to the past or the future?

Samantha: Past.

Emma: Learn by watching of learn by doing?

Samantha: Doing.

Emma: And then one more, what do you think people misunderstand about you?

Samantha: That I'm an armadillo.

Emma: That you are an armadillo?

Samantha: Soft on the inside, crunchy on the outside.

Emma: I like that. That's brilliant. Laughs. I feel like I know you a lot better now.

Emma: Right I said that we would talk a little bit more about sponsorship and you were part of the first cohort of the firm's breakthrough programme so that is our sponsorship programme aimed at people who are aspiring for partnership that come from what the firm would see as under-represented groups. Just really curious about what your experience of that programme was like?

Samantha: Yeah I think I was lucky because I had a really good sponsor. So I had a banking partner, you can't have a sponsor that is in your team so obviously I couldn't have someone in Corporate which made complete sense but it was if you understood transactions enough obviously to be able to give me the sponsorship that I needed for my kind of progression. I think there's probably two things I found really valuable, I don't know which one slightly more valuable than the other. I think it was probably just explaining what partnership is going to be like down to the detail of how does the pay work and what is it like going from being employed to self-employed and the kind of practical changes. Because you can do enough reading as you want on that but actually understanding the first bit of paper they send through to you is just [phew] mind melt.

But the second thing was exposure and who you need to be in front of and why and how you do that so I'm quite lucky in that my team have always been super supportive, the Corporate group have always been really supportive of my career progression and to the extent that I would have people that I didn't necessarily know that were coming up to me and saying "you need to write this article" because it was for your application or whatever which is amazing, but it was very much like well have you had exposure to this particular team or this particular person because that would be useful for you and they might work in the same sector as you or they have done this work for this client historically so there might be connections there that might be useful and actually being able to make those introductions but we had regular check-ins, we had good catch-ups. I mean he would take homework away were things that he needed to find out about what I should do next and things like that and that we would catch-up and then we would do it. I would have jobs to do in terms of, a lot of it was around exposure so it was things like if you are not speaking enough at conferences or can you go and talk to so and so about hosting a conference where you speak and getting yourself known externally as well as internally but internally to the right people and that kind of thing so I found it really, really valuable but what I have done since is offered to sponsor other people who are coming through and explain what my experience was and then what they should be seeking, not necessarily from me but if I they had a sponsor then this is what you should be kind of looking for. And it is more I think as well around the don't be afraid to ask so if you are not getting, then ask for it whatever it is you think you are not getting or whatever you want to know and it is supposed to be a situation where you can chat openly and freely about someone who has had the experience and can tell you if they cannot tell you, then they can go and find out hopefully.

Emma: And then I mentioned earlier on that you head up our UK Cannabis group and I would just love to hear more about that work and what you are doing in that area.

Samantha: Thank you. So yes, we have been doing cannabis work actually for a while. We have obviously got the regulatory teams who have been doing advice on cannabis products for years but actually formed the sector really early 2019, end of 2018 when there was a legislation change to allow medicinal cannabis. And it was an opportunity I think of interest, I was always super interested in it and then the opportunity came through the door knocking in the form of an investment bank essentially saying can we help them with a transaction and I was desperate to say yes but obviously given its cannabis and reputational and things like that, we needed to think about the firm's reputation and what work we could actually do so the sort of legal opinions for the firm to make sure we could do the work we wanted to do and actually from then so really from 2019 onwards we have been really busy. Various different work, so it started off being quite a lot of corporate transactional work for a load of companies coming over overseas and in the UK that wanted to list in London and raise money or do acquisitions over here and then that has grown in the UK for us into obviously a lot of related regulatory work so Public Law team looking at licencing arrangements and products description or content, our FS regulatory team does all the anti-money laundering and Proceeds of Crime Act advice, and I pretty much I think every deal they have to be involved with from a regulatory perspective for obvious reasons when you are dealing with novel medicines or drugs but it has grown more than that so we are doing commercial contracts, we have done employment advice, we have done data sharing agreements. We are doing clinic registrations, seed supply contracts, banking - so taking security over assets so cannabis active assets, real estate where you are looking for land to cultivate medicinal cannabis and more recent so markets are quiet at the moment we tend to follow what North America does so it is quiet in the UK at the moment and all legislation is obviously very, very different where recreational cannabis here is prohibited. But we have seen a lot of interest from overseas companies wanting to come to the UK to create CBD wellness products so food and beverage supplements, or actually looking at the regulatory regime in the UK to work out whether they can grow cannabis here for medicinal reasons and how can we help them with that so it really is full service and looking at other novel medicines as well so it is the kind of led into psychedelics so things like psilocybin - magic mushrooms, which you might have heard of - so it really used for depression, PTSD so we are looking at quite interesting cases at the moment as well and regulatory and acquisition work there as well some of it is overseas and it has been, I think probably worth saying that we have a huge team in Canada that do this work and they have been doing it for years because Canada is much more advanced in their regulations than we are and recreational cannabis is not prohibited, it is legal. So we have over 100 lawyers in Canada working on this.

Emma: Wow.

Samantha: We do have a good referral network between with the businesses in relation to that but our sectors almost standalone and that we do work outside of that as well so it has been really good to see I find it really, really interesting and it is quite cool that a plant can do this stuff and you know look at some of the big pharma companies, Jazz Pharmaceuticals - which was GW Pharma – which was the first listed cannabis company several years, so it is interesting. And I think what I also really enjoy is seeing some of the big household names looking at this stuff and you know this can treat pain and trialling it for cancer and things like that so it is good and it would be good if we could get it to work better in the UK.

Emma: And just going back to what you said, one of things you said at the beginning about when I asked you about why you got into law, you said about that sort of learning thing and the newness of things. I guess this lends itself to that as well that it is sort of something that you say relatively new to what we do and able to sort of grow that.

Samantha: Definitely, I mean big learning for me because it turned from an interest into 'oh we can actually execute this from a practice basis', and so obviously the regulatory teams were all over it anyway. It is just another novel medicine to them or another medicine so looking at the relevant Misuse of Drugs Act and licencing and NHRA stuff is all day-to-day stuff anyway, but I did have to read into it so I have done a lot of reading, been to a lot of conferences but yeah I think it is good because you can see, for me it has been kind of started in the sector and watching it grow in the UK - excuse the pun - but also I am learning how it is going and is the UK legislation going to change and if it is going to change, what should it do? How likely is that going to happen, what is the Government thinking about it, what are the lobbyists saying about it, what are the patient access groups saying about it and kind of understanding from all of them where we are now, why that isn't working necessarily or how could it work better, what is absolutely not going to work and try to work a way through that so there are obviously clients who are looking to come into this sector, you can then explain this is where we are now and where we need to get to and compare notes, so I think that is beneficial for us having the overseas offices as well because we can compare notes overseas as well, so I find it really interesting.

Emma: It is fascinating and I have wanted to ask you that question for ages, what sort of work that you do. So, I guess if we look back over your career to date as well are there any sort of big deals or big pieces of work you have worked on that really stand out for you as just really great experiences?

Samantha: Yeah there has been some cool ones, there have been some infamous ones. Which, so one of my slightly infamous ones, one of the first big floats that I did at Osborne Clark was Patisserie Valerie, which was is the cake shop, and I said earlier that I wanted partly to do corporate because you can kind of understand the brands a bit better and that is a really good example to me of understanding what the brand does because you have been in the shops and all the rest of it and it ended up being, it floated but then that was a bit of a disaster story afterwards which we won't talk about but that is a good example of kind of understanding the brands you work for and I really like that, I really like to understand what I am doing and who I am working for and we kind of understand who your clients are because you participated in whatever it is they do.

I worked with Chris Rogers and Stuart on the sale of Williams F1 team, which was supercool just because it is Formula 1 so that's good. Really, really interesting and I like Formula 1 so it is nice to kind of see the inner workings to a certain extent and try and understand what is happening and that is a big deal, big deal, emotive not least because it was the family selling the family business to an investor so it was cool but also quite emotional for everyone at the end.

And then biggest deals, I think more recently was the Codemasters takeover which I worked with Sunil on. It was a takeover, by Take-Two which turned into a takeover by EA Games so again names that you have heard of and really interesting. We worked with the company from their initial float, did their acquisitions for them, really, really lovely team, lovely client and such a good deal as well. It is obviously really sad to see them go, always is on a takeover when you're saying bye to your best client but really, really good deal and we smashed that in Covid as well. So not only was it a brilliant sort of double transaction but the fact that we managed to all do it, in Covid, remotely, remote everything, it was a bit of a test and trialling new things as well that we had all the meetings done virtually on a virtual platform and stuff like that so that was good. So yeah those are the kind of stand out ones.

I think on the cannabis stuff acting for some of the companies that are first to list on the Stock Exchange, first and second companies to list, things like that and working with companies that are bringing new novel medicines to the market is really, really good. I really enjoy that because that resonates a bit more with how you are really helping people and your corporate job, whereas money for shareholders and companies or actually helping medicine to get to market so that is partly why I enjoy that so there are some really good names I know that I can't talk about but it is really nice to be doing that work so you can kind of see what the end point is and the end point is very much this is going to help all of us so I like that.

Emma: And what is it like when you have been working on a big deal and it is all done, what's that moment like when it is all…

Samantha: Knackering. Laughs. First response to that. It's brilliant, I love it. It is like that endorphin rush when you go for a run or whatever it is you do and you get that hit. I like doing deals so it is brilliant. I love it. Most of the time I love it sometimes there are tricky ones where you think I'm just really glad that's over and most of the time it's happy…

Emma: Joy and relief.

Samantha: Exactly, it is very joyful for everyone and big congratulations and stuff and we have got some really lovely clients so our repeat bank clients are always a pleasure to work with and it is nice to build those relationships so you get to the point when you have known some of these people for so long that you just know what they want straightaway, it's a lot easier, it is very much straightforward but yeah it was always good to close a deal.

Emma: And what advice would you give anybody that is sort of coming up now looking at their career maybe thinking about partnership, what things could they start to do or should they be thinking about to help them on their way?

Samantha: I think it goes back to mentoring and sponsoring really, the firm offers mentoring throughout anyway, but in addition to that you can seek your own mentors as well, so if you are particularly interested in a certain route or a certain sector or certain topic, then seek out that advice as well and I think be true to yourself in what you actually want to do so I say this to a lot of trainees not encouraging them to leave but if there is not a role for you that you know you desperately want to do then you should really consider because this is the rest of your life, it is rest of your career. Be true about what you actually want to spend your time doing and I say that because I moved from a litigation firm which I kind of fell into to a corporate commercial firm which I chose to do, and I am glad it worked out because I didn't really know how it was going to work out but I also prefer it. But going with what you are confident enough to think that you would like to do and then get the kind of support and mentoring for it, look into it and really use your mentoring and sponsoring network to get there because I think the feedback coming through from that which will all be around development and building your personal brand and supporting the sector and the specialism or whatever it is you are doing is really important because actually that is all the stuff you are going to have write in your application anyway so think about it early, get out there and meet people and don't be afraid to walk around the office and talk to people. We are actually really open plan physically anyway but really open in terms of welcoming people into new groups that people want to get involved in new sectors and jobs and things like that so get involved as much as you can.

Emma: Make the most out of the opportunity and then my last question for you today is just what is the best thing that has happened to you this week so far?

Samantha: Closed a deal on Monday so far. It is only Tuesday.

Emma: It is only Tuesday. I am sure amazing things are going to happen the rest of the week.

Samantha: I hope so.

Emma: So a huge thank you Sam for joining us today and for sharing your story and your insights.

We will be back again next week to get to know more talented people at Gowling WLG. Thank you for listening. Have a wonderful week and remember we all have the power to make a difference.