The Space: Leadership and law - episode three

Emma Dennis: Welcome to The Space where we break down barriers to perceptions about a career in law by talking to the talented people of Gowling WLG. I am Emma Dennis, diversity, inclusion and wellbeing senior manager at Gowling WLG, so join me as we get to dive under the surface and under the diverse experiences and perspectives of our people, how they have got to where they are and what they wished they had known.

So today we are here with Sanchia Wheeler, head of Compliance in the firm's General Counsel team, to hear more about her role and how she got to where she is today and the importance of representation in law.

So, hi Sanchia – thank you.

Sanchia Wheeler: Hello – thank you, thank you for inviting me.

Emma: So, I was doing a bit of research for today, so I am afraid I stalked your LinkedIn a little bit…

Sanchia: [Laughs]

Emma: … and can see you have had a really varied career, so I can see you have had roles in local government, the Legal Ombudsman, in-house legal roles with law firms like you are now. I know you are on the Law Society, a couple of Law Society committees and fitting in time to be a school governor along with that as well. I was like firstly wow you have got a busy life going on!

Sanchia: [Laughs] Yes.

Emma: But I wanted to ask you, was law always something you knew you wanted to pursue?

Sanchia: 100%. I think from when I was really, really young I was always a bit of a bookworm. I remember being under the covers at like 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock at night with my torch literally like reading books. So, I have always loved reading and I think my first kind of experience I would say with law – it was on the TV – there's no lawyers in my family and I was first kind of generation to go to university. But Mum used to love watching like LA Law and I always used to think it was really cool and I loved the way they would be like standing up and fighting for people and for other people's rights and it just seemed like something naturally that would fit with what I like to do in terms of reading and kind of argue I guess as well to some extent.

[Laughter]

But yeah, it was really good to kind of see that people would get good results for other people. And so yeah, it just always kind of seemed quite a natural thing for me to get into and English was my first kind of love at school as well, so yeah, the two just seemed to go hand in hand, so always law for me.

Emma: And what was your experience of becoming a lawyer like in terms of what was your journey and training and qualifying?

Sanchia: Very varied. I think because I always wanted to be in court, I wanted to be an advocate, naturally I wanted to go to the Bar. So, after kind of finishing university, I went to law school and did the Bar Vocational Courses it was called then and I was a member at the Honourable Society of Lincoln's Inn and I qualified at the Bar.

I really, really enjoyed it because the focus really is on kind of advocacy in a number of ways and after I had finished law school and finished… and was admitted to the Bar, from then the next natural step would have been to complete a pupillage. So, I started applying for pupillages and I had three interviews within the first kind of few months, so I knew it was something that if I progressed and kind of kept on kind of going down that route then I would qualify and practise as a barrister. But because… I guess at that time I was already working as a lawyer so I had already been going to court as an advocate working for a local authority so I had done that for a couple of years even before I qualified as a barrister, so I quite quickly realised actually there's other ways to be an advocate in court than kind of pursuing the Bar.

So, at that point I was working at the London Borough of Camden, and I was covering for a solicitor on maternity leave who had been qualified for eight years. And it just kind of seemed natural for me to start looking at the solicitor route because I am like well I'm doing the job as a solicitor, I am going to County Court every day, what is the difference? So, I started to look into cross-qualification and essentially, I found out about the Qualified Lawyer's Transfer Test so I kind of weighed up, I can either continue down a pupillage route – I think at that time you got paid about between £10,000-£12,000 to do pupillage for a year and then you will be self-employed. So, I was already working full-time, I was making decent enough money and I kind of thought well living in London, it is really, really expensive and it just seemed to me that financially that was not the kind of route that I wanted to kind of go down whereas if I qualified as a solicitor, I would be more financially stable.

So yes, so I decided to cross-qualify and became dual-qualified at the Bar and then admitted as a solicitor a couple of years later, 2009, so [laughs] so yeah, so I have had the kind of, the best of both worlds really. And I do not think I have ever really looked back because I think I feel like I have achieved what I wanted to achieve. I have done court advocacy for several years across the… I have been in the rent appeal tribunals when I was doing housing work; County Court, representing tenants who are at risk of losing their tenancy. But on the kind of flip side working for local authorities, I was also representing the local authorities in relation to kind of civil matters, housing, kind of possession cases, and then after that I ended up kind of doing criminal law. So, I was in the Magistrates Court, the Youth Court, the Crown Court kind of work as well, so I had done that for several years. So, I think for me I was just always narrow-minded at the beginning to think I have to be a barrister to do advocacy. And then as I say, just throughout my career I realised that there were other options and yeah I achieved what I wanted to do and I absolutely love advocacy. But yeah, I have moved away from advocacy since then and here I am now [laughs].

Emma: So, what was it like – you said you had worked sort of in local, the local authorities, what was that experience like for you?

Sanchia: I really enjoyed it. I think with the housing work initially I started off in the housing advice team so we would essentially help individuals who are risk as I say of losing their tenancies because they were having challenges with kind of rent arrears or anti-social behaviour. And a lot of the time it was either they were having difficulties because of their benefits payment, so it meant kind of liaising with the kind of benefits team to ensure that their benefits were calculated correctly, making sure that they were coming through on time, setting up plans where the benefits could go directly to the landlords, because I think a lot of people were having challenges even back then in terms of sometimes managing their money when it was on a really tight budget. So, putting them in contact with the right organisations who could then help them kind of financially to get their finances into order, get payment plans put in place so then they could better manage their money and also keep a roof over their head. So it was, it felt like I was doing something worthwhile in terms of kind of helping tenants.

And then as I say naturally I then, I kind of progressed into my career. I then started working again in local authority but representing the local authority, so that was as I say to do with like anti-social behaviour. So, I would often find kind of communities really struggling with kind of difficult neighbours and again I think a lot of the time it was to do with… sometimes it was mental health problems we generally would find, so again it was a lot of people who needed support so again it was making sure that people had that support so that they could manage their tenancies and also then not create kind of disturbances for everybody else in the neighbourhood.

So I think for me, my kind of career path initially was really about helping individuals and I also was able to do that through the Law Centre and I worked in London in terms of I was giving advice to people who came in who had kind of debt problems or other kind of legal kind of issues, such as consumer problems or housing problems and it felt really good to be able to help people. Every now and then you would get the odd person kind of come back and actually say "thank you, really appreciate it" and it just made it all worthwhile. But it was really challenging because it is people's lives that you are dealing with so you can get quite attached to families, but as I say that is always what I wanted to do which was to help people.

Emma: And just leading on from that because I was thinking about some of the stuff, the work we do as a firm in terms of our pro bono advice and the legal clinics that we run. How important is it now for you to… do you still, do you do anything still to sort of do that individual advice?

Sanchia: Not in pro bono specifically in terms of like law centres or legal advice clinics but I guess for me pro bono can be done in other ways, so it is about helping communities, helping individuals in whatever way you can through my kind of specialist knowledge and skills. So I do that I guess through some of my kind of governor work, through kind of Law Society work and through kind of mentorship work that I have done. I was a school governor, I am not currently doing that work, but I did that for my term which I think was four years and I did that at a school in Birmingham and I really enjoyed that. I got to really understand what it is like, what is important I guess to the governing of the school.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: And the importance of being on the board which can help to kind of shape the school and how it kind of operates, what the focus is on, what the focus is for the children in terms of what is important for their education and just some of the accessing, some kind of external kind of work and support for the children depending on, I guess depending on the kind of school that you are in. So, I know that the school that I was in in Small Heath, a quite diverse school, funding was quite a challenge as well so it was always about trying to make sure that we did enough work where we would kind of raise funds. Another issue was because it was such a diverse school English was not always the first language for some of the school children and particularly for some of the parents. So, in order to help them to kind of engage with the school community it was important for us to ensure that we had teachers in the school who could speak the languages of the parents and of the children. Just little things like kind of leaflets that were then translated so that we could engage with the parents. So, it was just really looking at the kind of diversity of the school and making sure that as a school governing board we were putting in place what we needed to, to support the children and their parents. But yes, so I did that for four years.

I also sat on the diversity committee at my son's school and that was really important to me because I felt, again as quite a diverse school it was really important for them to see Black senior people such as myself, people in different kind of sectors, different roles where they had kind of role models essentially to kind of look up to. So when they say oh what do you want to be they know that you can be a lawyer. This is what I do, obviously it all starts from the foundation of working hard at school but given in the hope that you can be anything you want if you work hard.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: So yeah, so the diversity committee was really important, and we set up a - which I thought was a really nice idea - rather than just kind of having a governing committee at the kind of board level, it was important to have one at the kids' level so that they felt that they were being a part of something.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: Just giving them opportunities to be a voice for their peers. So yeah, really enjoyed that and we had different people come in and give talks just about their jobs and we had different like community fares so that the kids could get more involved in the, yeah not just in their everyday kind of work but in the wider kind of society and know that they had a community of people kind of around them. So yeah, so we did that as well and the school won an award for it, kind of commitment to diversity. So it was really swell to be a part of that. And then I guess for me the other really important thing was kind of giving back to students or those who are kind of early on in their career so I essentially went back to my old university so I did the LLB law with business in Kingston University in London. And essentially as part of their alumni they had a 'beyond barriers' kind of mentoring scheme which was basically a diversity scheme for ethnic minorities, so that they had people who were already in the professions who could kind of talk about their challenges, how they got to positions that they have got into, any kind of words of advice, tips for their careers, for CVs specifically, interviews. Networking, the importance of networking. So, I did that a couple of years ago and kind of helped a couple of people as part of that scheme. And I still keep in touch with them which is really nice and even now they still come to me for kind of work references or just advice on their CV when they are going for other roles, looking at training contracts.

So, I think naturally as part of that scheme and even outside of that scheme I have always had a bit of a mentoring role and I think it is really important to be able to help people get to where they want in their career. I think for me especially, I had a mentor from when I was first started off in my career but I was not always sure how to kind of access it or I felt maybe a bit nervous or I didn't want to feel like I was taking up somebody's time. But I think the more I have gone through my career I have kind of realised that people actually do want to help. So, you make use of your networks, and actually it becomes more than just a network in terms of I only need to go to you when I need something. It just becomes a natural kind of a friendship, a mutual kind of friendship really, as you are developing so I always keep in contact with those who I come across, whether it is in work or outside of work and I really enjoy that and it has been really nice to know that people have actually qualified and they felt that I have had a ….

Emma: I can see that sort of journey.

Sanchia: Yeah, yeah and especially as some of them can be really tough and I know sometimes I felt like should I still be doing this if it is so hard do I continue, but for me I always say keep trying, never give up and I have never known anyone to date who has given up, they have always continued and they have always reached their goal. It is about recognising sometimes that there are other routes and it is about pointing out other ways of getting the experience that people need so that they can then present to a future employer. This is the work that I have done or this is the pro bono work that I have done or this is, I guess this is how I have helped other people or these are my business ideas… And I think essentially, when you are presenting yourself, whether it is for kind of training contracts or whether it is for promotions, I think it is always about thinking outside the box and not just, I guess working within the role that you have been given. So, I always say work like you are at the next level ahead because then people can see that you are hardworking, they can see where you should be and it helps people to kind of have faith in you and see your abilities rather than just say, okay well this is my role and I am not doing any more than that. I think it is always important to kind of push barriers and I guess put yourself in places where it gives you more skills.

So, I think for example for myself one of the roles that I did quite early on in my career, when I first qualified, I was working at a firm in Nottingham. It was a national firm, a well‑known firm, at Cartwright King Solicitors, and I had just left London, I had left kind of that local authority, this was my first time in a private practice firm. It was taking on a department where it was essentially myself so I was like a sole fee earner and managing this department and over time I took on trainees and newly qualified solicitors to build up the team. But it was essentially kind of doing all the management of that team as well and I became what was then the LSCs that was, for legal aid essentially, now The Legal Aid Agency but being supervisor, so managing the legal aid contracts, doing networking to kind of get new clients in. And I always tried to operate at like it was my firm in the sense of, okay I am not just, I am part of a bigger firm but let me operate as though I would if it was my own firm.

So yeah so I got involved in kind of writing articles as well in the local newspapers and I think my approach and how I kind of built up the department, I essentially got recognised in what was then Chambers & Partners, this was back in 2010. And it was the first time that the firm had been recognised in Chambers & Partners for the work that I was doing which was actions against the police. And it was a really important area of work because again you would have a lot of police complaints, a lot of kind of claims against the police for wrongful arrests or assaults where they had used excessive force while they were kind of arresting individuals. And again, it was unfortunately there was a lot of Black people that I was working with who either had been wrongfully arrested or assaulted during their arrest. So, for me it was really important to make sure that they felt that they had someone on their side who understood what they were going through and somebody that was fighting for them and making sure that they achieved justice, because unfortunately I think that it is well know that there is a disproportionate number of arrests when it comes to the Black community. So, for me it was an important role, not within the firm but kind of wider than that and again using my kind of expertise and skills to really help people who needed it. And it was not an area that was kind of widely practiced at that time so it was really important that I did as much as I could for the community and I was really glad that I did that work and what I achieved.

Emma: That must have been really rewarding but I am guessing quite emotionally heavy as well.

Sanchia: Very, very. It was difficult because some of the work that you had, well some of the cases that I dealt with, as you say, was, again it is people's lives.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: It is more than just an arrest, it is more than just spending time in prison, it is people's livelihoods and it can have quite a detrimental effect and impact on people, not just in the moment that it is happening but going forward because then there is clearly a distrust of the police so it was really trying to, also educate people so that they understood what their rights were. For example, stop and searches was quite popular but people were not aware of what their rights were in terms of what the police could and could not do when they were being stopped and searched. So, I found that was really important to be able to kind of educate people on that. So yeah, so I feel that I did help the people to achieve that and I think that the work as I say was recognised through the fact that we went on to be recognised in Chambers & Partners so it was a really big deal for the firm as well. And I think for me probably some of the most important work that I have done in terms of as I say kind of really helping people and yeah, I am really proud of that work.

Emma: Thanks, it sounds, it does sound like it would have been really impactful.

Sanchia: Yes, definitely.

Emma: And like you say, again like everything you have been saying so far is about that need to sort of want to help people and change people's experiences or their lives.

Sanchia: Yeah.

Emma: You mentioned earlier about mentoring and I just wanted to go back to it briefly as I think you made a good point that people get very nervous of sort of taking control, of trying to find a mentor or asking people to be mentors. I mean sort of we get the benefits you as an individual can get from having a mentor and the advice and guidance but I would just be interested in you being the mentor to people. As a mentor, what are the benefits that you get from that relationship because I think there are some there that mentors get out of this too.

Sanchia: Yeah, I think you, I think it is learning on both sides because as I say I think even from maybe how I mentored the first person I mentored, I would say just informally at that stage, and how I would approach it now is very different. I feel very vested in people that I speak to and as I say as well, what you get out of that is also a mutual friendship in terms of kind of how you develop and it helps to also build your network and I think as well, as I say, particularly as my focus has been as I say through the Kingston University Beyond Barriers mentor scheme, it is good to see, to be an inspiration to someone and to be a role model because I think unfortunately throughout the legal sector kind of generally, and particularly within some firms, I think there is a lack of kind of visibility in terms of kind of Black role models especially in senior positions, so I feel that what I have as I say what I have personally kind of gained from that is knowing that I am helping the next generation to kind of achieve their goals essentially.

So I can only ever see it as a benefit and in terms of time it doesn't feel like I am giving up my free time, it feels very natural, it feels like I am really helping someone so I don't see it as it has just been an hour of my time just speaking to someone, I'm busy I've got other things to do, it doesn't feel like that. In fact what I almost have to do sometimes is, its almost kind of stopping this conversation because we get so engrossed and I get so committed in terms of, have you thought of this or that's really how I look at your CV and I think one of the things that I do is, it's so easy to sometimes give kind of like generic advice or have you tried this or have you tried that, but I think what I particularly focus on is getting people just to talk about themselves. So even in terms of their CV for example, I think I have almost managed to almost create a whole new CV in some ways because people don't often recognise how good they are or what they do but by asking them to tell me about, okay day-to-day what does your job look like, what do you do and just by having that conversation with them they realise oh I didn't think of it like that, actually that's really good work that I did and it's not always about kind of KPIs or how much you might have billed or you know the hard kind of facts, the hard kind of data or statistics. It’s the other work, what would your workmates say about you, what would your colleagues say, what do you kind of bring to the table and also by understanding more about that they do and what their kind of wider team does or the firm that they're in if they are a junior for example or, whatever industry they might be in because they are not all within a law firm, by understanding the work that they do and what their organisation is trying to achieve, I can then kind of advise and say well there might be a particular project there or there might be a bit of a gap there where you could basically take the reins and pick that up.

Like speak to your managers, I always kind of say go with a plan, don't just go with oh I want to do this but if you've kind of almost mapped out a bit of a business plan as to well this is a bit of a gap and I think I could make this better. Then I think that it shows initiative, it shows that you are thinking about developing the business, it shows that you are willing to work hard because quite often you are doing another role or doing additional to your role but you are not necessarily getting paid for it but the skills that you can get from that and as I say kind of going forward in terms of I don't know appraisal time, promotions, I think you can kind of put yourself different to everyone else if you position yourself differently in terms of being able to show what you can kind of bring to the table and show that you are already thinking like a leader or somebody whose as I say kind of willing to put themselves out and do the extra work to not only kind of better themselves but kind of further the business as well.

So, I literally just like to have conversations with people about what they've done and, I'm a bit geeky like that, but we get really excited about the prospects of what people can do and what they can achieve so it's just… And I guess, you asked me what do I get from that. As I said because I get excited about that, and it makes me start to think about other things that I can do. So, I see it as pushing that other person forward as well but also pushing myself forward because I think it's exciting to be able to grow and you can see all the possibilities in a role or in kind of long‑term what you're capable of doing and I mean I love work [laughter] I genuinely do enjoy working and of solving issues. I like to as I say help people, I mean even in a corporate firm it might not be the same issues in terms of when I was helping somebody with a housing situation or helping them when they were at court but its, it's all about people for me. So quite often I am really big into kind of the client experience and that's not just your external client, that can be just the people that you work with so it's, if you can find a better way of helping them or making things smoother or an easier process that to me is still the same as helping people essentially. So, it's really important and I think they are the things that also naturally help you to get ahead because people, people appreciate that and when they can see that you are trying to kind of make their lives easier. It is a challenge [laughter] definitely at times but yeah, I think it's one that's appreciated so yeah.

So, I think what I've enjoyed about working with like I say some of my, I don't necessarily call them mentees but just friends, people that I've worked with in the past, people that I have a close relationship with who do call me up regularly, I spoke to two people just last week that kind of called me for kind of advice because they're looking to progress their career or they want to change from in‑house to a law firm to a totally different kind of sector or change from a practice area to another and they say how do you do it. Because they've seen my journey, you've come from housing and then you've done kind of actions against the police, you've then gone into criminal defence work, you've done data protection, you've done regulatory work, you've done compliance. Like how do you kind of connect the dots. And I think for me you always have to have something that you're really good at and you have a specialism. But I think by doing the extra things, like I say maybe it's getting involved in projects where you can see that there's something else that can be done to kind of better help people work or how departments kind of interact, it gives you the opportunity to build up the skills, gain other skills that you might not have done otherwise. And sometimes it's just about kind of taking responsibility for your career path.

So, for me there's always been a bit of a common thread so I would say because I have had so many different kind of practice areas but it only started off with housing but because I did kind of the Law Centre work where I got some exposure to as I say kind of looking at consumer matters or just looking at kind of civil matters in terms of kind of debt work and then being able to take that back into kind of doing some housing work so I had a bit more knowledge around I guess kind of practice areas, which would I guess help me to see that immediate work differently because I had done other work, like I say okay this is a housing matter but actually that's connected to that work over there and if I can help to kind of bring the two together then actually I can do this piece of work better.

Emma: We'll take a short break now and when we're back, we'll find out more about Sanchia's career and also the importance of role models and also representation in law.

[music]

Emma: Welcome back to part two and we're going to kick off with some quick‑fire questions.

Sanchia: OK.

Emma: So these Sanchia are just aimed to get to know you a little bit more, just some quick‑fire things …

Sanchia: Sure

Emma: … to find out some more stuff about you. So, what was your first job?

Sanchia: Oh, oh my first job was working for essentially a courier company so a bit like being in‑house at Royal Mail, sorting mail. That was my first job.

Emma: What time do you usually wake up in the morning?

Sanchia: Oh, so I really am one of those late people, like I literally, I have about 10 snoozes on my alarm.

Emma: [laughter]

Sanchia: And then I literally get up at the very very last point and I run around the house like a headless chicken.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: So yeah, so I'm not really a morning person but then I'm up until stupid o'clock in the morning.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: Doing whatever I need to do.

Emma: You're a night owl.

Sanchia: So, I'm definitely a night owl but I plan to change that at some point.

Emma: Is your bed made right now?

Sanchia: It is!

Emma: Everybody's beds are made. Nobody leaves an unmade bed, it's making me feel like I've got my life priorities wrong.

[laughter]

Emma: What's your favourite movie?

Sanchia: I've got a couple, one's Titanic [laughter] and then the other is oh The Colour Purple, I love that movie.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: Yeah.

Emma: Favourite dream holiday destination?

Sanchia: Oh, it's got to be tropical.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: Tropical, hot, golden sands, blue sea, so yeah, anywhere Caribbean. Dubai is somewhere I haven't been but I'd love to go to Dubai.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: I think that would be beautiful but yeah, I'm definitely a hot weather person.

Emma: Hot weather.

Sanchia: Yeah.

Emma: What's your hidden talent?

Sanchia: Oh, that's a really good question. I actually don't know.

Emma: This has stumped people.

Sanchia: You know, actually what I'm really, what I am really good at is hair. I might have been a hairdresser actually.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: At one point, yeah, so I just used, when I grew up, I was always at just in my bedroom like braiding my hair, so I had braids a couple of months ago in the summer which were like really kind of long to my back and everyone was like saying oh where did you get your hair done. I did it myself, it takes hours when you braid your hair but yeah, I'm really good at braiding hair. And netball, kind of not played for a little while but I used to play for Nottingham City in the premier division. So, I won quite a few medals with them.

Emma: Amazing. I think there is a netball team here at Gowling so maybe you need to revive it and join it.

Sanchia: I had heard that. I know. I'll wait until my son just a little bit older so I've got a bit more free time.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: But yeah, definitely want to get back into it.

Emma: What's your "go-to" karaoke song?

Sanchia: Oh, probably Whitney Houston. I love Whitney.

Emma: Whitney is good on the karaoke.

Sanchia: The big ballads, I'm not quite Whitney.

[laughter]

Emma: Which Whitney song?

Sanchia: Backing singer. Oh, "I Will Always Love You" – it's all about the romance.

[laughter]

Emma: So, I've got a few more questions, these are like versus questions, either or questions.

Sanchia: OK.

Emma: Cats or dogs?

Sanchia: Dogs.

Emma: Would you rather fly or have superstrength?

Sanchia: Oh, fly.

Emma: Are you more introvert or an extrovert?

Sanchia: Introvert.

Emma: Night out or a night in?

Sanchia: Night in.

Emma: Would you rather travel to the past or to the future?

Sanchia: The past.

Emma: And do you learn by watching or learn by doing?

Sanchia: Learn by doing.

Emma: And then one more. What do you think people misunderstand about you?

Sanchia: Probably the introvert / extrovert bit actually. I think naturally, I think because of my role or maybe just how I present myself people might think I'm quite extravert but I actually hate attention [laughter] yeah I'd rather just quietly just do my job.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: So even for, just even in terms of public speaking for example, like I say when I used to do advocacy for a living I'd be in court every single day, in the court room I loved it, I could cause I'm representing someone, I fighting for somebody, so I was very obviously well you can't not be vocal, but I was very vocal and very confident in the court room. But yeah in terms of public speaking generally where there's lots of eyes on you.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: Yeah, that's something that, yeah, people would naturally think I like public speaking or like to kind of be out there but no I think I am quite quiet actually yeah.

[laughter]

[music]

Emma: So, we were talking about your sort of different things that you've done throughout your career Sanchia, now as I mentioned at the beginning, you're head of Compliance here in our General Counsel team. What led to that, moving into that sort of compliance area.

Sanchia: I don't think generally, having spoken to other kind of compliance specialists, that you dream of being a compliance lawyer in any way. It somehow just happens. For me it probably started when I was at the Legal Ombudsman, so I was the legal manager there. So, a role which was previously kind of carried out by the General Counsel. So, it was a role which I guess I had direct access to like the chief executive and the chair of the board and what we did really mattered. It was about kind of regulatory work, it was about standards, kind of quality standards of solicitors, it was about the RSA kind of code of conduct and I really enjoyed that work and I actually didn't want to lose that type of work once I kind of came away from it.

So, after I left there, I realised and knew that I wanted to kind of be in an in‑house role but I wanted to gain more experience of contracts, so I literally went to a construction company in‑house, focused on contracts kind of review work, commercial contracts, but then also ended up doing data protection as well and that was what really got me into data protection. But when I was leaving the Legal Ombudsman but still wanted to, I enjoyed the kind of regulatory type work, that's when I applied to the Law Society, and they had a few committees which I was interested in. So, one was regulatory processes which really looks at kind of the RSA and the SBT which is the tribunal and also professional standards and ethics. So, I applied for those roles and was appointed to those committees. So even when I moved on from the Legal Ombudsman into a construction company I still kind of kept my foot in by kind of sitting on those committees, understanding what was relevant, I guess what the kind of members kind of needed or what they needed help with, what they needed advice on, where we needed to kind of make changes I guess in terms of how our solicitors kind of operate and what was important to them. And I carried on doing that when I was at the construction company and then went to Pinsent Masons doing data protection after that. I was there a couple of years and then five different agencies contacted me when this role came up.

[laughter]

So, they said its everything that you've kind of done in different ways and it would be a really really good fit. So, I wasn't looking at the time to move but when I saw the kind of work of a compliance lawyer. So, it, it's like the AML work, it's complaints work, it's data protection work, there was the international element with all of our offices, it was so wide-ranging. Obviously got the regulatory side in terms of the SRA and making sure all of our people are working at the standards that they need to be, they are complying with the code of conduct etc. There was lots of different elements to it and because my roles previously have been so broad and I enjoyed that kind of versatility of what I have done, it seemed that I had my, basically I had my cake and could eat it because there was just lots of different things to do.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: And then on top of that as well, I have always been a person who is about processes. I like where I can to, as I say, make things better.

Emma: Yeah.

Sanchia: So, if something's not quite working right it's kind of looking at that process and trying to fix it to make the work that we do and the legal advice that we give better, more consistent and I guess the different departments within the firm know what to expect.

Emma: I wanted to talk a little bit about your experiences as a senior Black woman in law and you've mentioned it earlier and I think most people know that Black talent is severely under‑represented in the legal profession. I firstly just wanted to know or try and get a little bit of an understanding of what your experience was coming up as a Black woman and how that felt to you and what you noticed.

Sanchia: Well, I think for me, I always found that there was as a say a kind of a lack of visibility, not just at the senior end actually but just in general. I was usually one of very few kind of Black lawyers wherever I worked. In some places there were none at all and in other places yeah there might have been more Black people. But yeah either, yeah as a Black female I've always found that's been quite a challenge. And I think it's really important, I mean for me and generally across the board that you're in a workplace where you can see that representation. I think it's absolutely vital, because if you don't have that like a say for me it's like the next generation as well. So if they want to know I can do that, I can be a lawyer then you need to have Black lawyers and you need to have them at all levels because if you don’t, particularly as a firm or any firm if you don't have Black seniors in place whether it's in the legal teams, whether it's in the business services teams, it will appear that that's a firm that is not getting it right.

And I think in terms of what kind of firms can do about that, I mean it's always a difficulty, if there aren't so many kind of Black people within the profession as a whole that does make it more challenging but then you look at well why is that, what can we do to kind of bring in kind of Black people at the junior end to make them want to be lawyers to put on careers fairs where people before they decide I want to be a lawyer can know actually like a say I can make it or that's the kind of firm where they do have Black representation.

And I think for some firms, I can't talk across the board because I've only been in some places, but I think it's important to speak to those who are already in the firm. There are lots of places, whether it's in a law firm or whether it's in industry and they've got their own kind of legal teams, they might look at why people leave. But I think by then it's too late because people have left for a reason. At that point they might not be invested to say well these are the issues that I faced within the firm. So, speak to the people while they are there and understand the data. I think it's easy to say okay we've had this many Black or ethnic minorities at these different levels but it's about understanding for example well how long have they been in that role, have they at any point had clear kind of progression, kind of guidance on well if you want to get promoted this is how you do it, this is the kind of dedicated path to get promoted, this is what you need to do, this is what you need to be kind of hitting in terms of milestones or actions, whatever it may be. And making sure that's followed through. And also making sure that there are those positions which are available for people to get into because if they're in a role in which there isn't the next level can one be created. Is there something more that can be done to progress people.

But I think we're only really going to get the answers by speaking to people because how are you ever going to know what the issues are if we don't and I guess, it's always a challenge because as I say I think most places will have I guess some commitment to kind of diversity generally, I mean Black History Month is always one time where there is some focus, but is it just about the month of October or is it about more than that. Is it about what do we do throughout the year. I mean obviously, this year for example Windrush is a really key kind of issue and I think for me it's about recognising for Black people in any kind of industry well what does that mean to you. It's about speaking to people, understanding their stories, what difficulties have they had in terms of progression.

But for me it has to be about talking to people. It has to be about doing something different. There's a lot of organisations externally that can help as well so for example there's various kind of Black law societies or Black networks where they would have looked at the issues. So, I'd say don't ever feel that you need to try and solve the problems internally because sometimes they can't be. It's about understanding what organisations there are and where possible bringing them into the organisations. Because that really then shows a commitment to want to change things within any organisation and then as well it's about speaking to other organisations who have got it right. For example, I attended the Birmingham Black Lawyers summer ball this year and it's so wonderful to see so many kind of Black professionals in a room, there were judges, there were several judges in that room and you don't get to see that on a day-to-day basis. So, it's those events that you get to see that, you get to see how many black professionals there are and in senior positions. So, bring that into the organisations, make people kind of aware of that, inspire people. But as I say then its then looking at well what's the route to progression for those who are already in the organisations.

Emma: A really really good point. One last question for you today Sanchia. What's the best thing that's happened to you this week? It can be work related or non‑work related.

Sanchia: Oh, this week. What day are we on, we're only on Wednesday.

[laughter]

Emma: There are seven days.

Sanchia: There are seven days. Spending time with family. I had a day off yesterday, but I met a really inspirational lady actually just for a family event that I was at, and she was a Reverend, a Black lady from Birmingham, and she was the first Afro-Caribbean Reverend.

Emma: Eve.

Sanchia: Yeah, in the ….

Emma: Eve.

Sanchia: It is, no way [laughter].

Emma: Sorry, she did my grandad's funeral, she's amazing.

Sanchia: [laughter] I was at a funeral, it was a funeral I was at yesterday and she was absolutely amazing and yeah I've got her number and she was telling me. So, she's from Nottingham originally, which is where I was brought up and where all my family is and it was Nottingham where the funeral was and yeah. So my, she was saying she was like one of the founders of the Black Panthers in Nottingham. She just, even it was a funeral, it was such a celebration. It was, it was teaching just about Black culture, it was absolutely everything and I remember even in the service my little one was there who you've met and she kind of asked him to come up to the front because she shook his hand during the service. And she spoke to him, asked him what he wanted to be and he said he wanted to be an architect, and she said that even though one life has gone it is the circle of life, it's about the young generations as well in making sure that you know we can be role models to them. So, it came back to kind of teaching again and yeah just be an inspiration to all and it was just nice that she took the time out to speak to him and to yeah. It was, absolutely amazing woman and I'll definitely be keeping in contact with her.

Emma: She's just joyous is the word I would put. She did my nan's funeral as well and she just made it the most joyous celebration of life.

Sanchia: Really, really unique.

Emma: So, she's amazing.

Sanchia: Oh, small world.

[laughter]

Emma: Well, a huge thank you Sanchia …

Sanchia: Thank you.

Emma: …for talking to me today and for sharing your story and your insights into so many different things. We'll be back next week to get to know more about our talented people at Gowling WLG. Thank you for listening, have a wonderful week and remember we all have the power to make a difference.

Sanchia: Thank you very much.