The Space: elevating early talent - episode eight - Rob Bridgman

Emma Dennis:  so welcome everybody.  I am delighted to be here today with Rob Bridgman a partner in the Property Litigation team in our Birmingham office.  Rob is also the firm's training principal and one of our partner principals for trainees which we will talk about in a little bit. 

Hi Rob thank you for being here today.

Rob Bridgman:  Hi.

Emma:  You joined the firm back in 2010 as a trainee and you were promoted to partner in the Property Litigation team in 2021.

Rob:  That's right.

Emma:  Can you tell me a little bit firstly about the type of work that you focus on at the firm. 

Rob:  So, we in general do all sorts of disputes that involve land and usually that is for corporates, so we do not tend to act for individuals very often.  Personally, I do a lot of work for our housebuilder clients, but our team does a really wide range of stuff, so landlord and tenant disputes are our bread and butter.  We have got a couple of big telecoms clients.  Telecoms is a big growth area at the moment.  I have got a little niche specialism in mines and minerals, so I have got a client that is mining for lithium which is quite exciting, and we also do all of the general landlord things that you might learn at university so easements, covenants all that sort of jazz.

Emma:  Did you always know you wanted to be a lawyer?

Rob:  Um I started off as a musician, so my degree was in music.  I knew I did not want to be a music teacher, and I knew I was not good enough to be a professional musician.  I flitted around for a bit but it was at the time there was quite a big case on about music and copyright and people basically stealing other people's IP and putting it into their songs and in fact there has been a very recent case involving Ed Sheeran doing the same sort of thing or not doing the same sort of thing so that first peaked my interest and I though there is a sort of music and law type thing I could go into and then eventually I ditched the music and decided to go into property instead. 

Emma:  And when you sort of started off your career as a lawyer, was partnership always the goal?

Rob:  I would say no as a trainee, but quite quickly as an associate yes it became the goal.

Emma:  And were there any misconceptions you had about what partnership would be like that have either been confirmed or dispelled since 2021?

Rob:  That is quite a tricky one actually.  I suspect no-one really knows what partnership is like until you become a partner, and I think I went into the process thinking that working hard and doing a good job meant that the natural progression was to partnership whereas actually almost overnight when you become a partner, you also become a manager, you become responsible for your team, for their families and their mortgages and that and actually that is quite a heavy burden to shoulder, so I suppose what I would say is I got into the partnership process through working hard and being good at what I do and then all of a sudden that is the thing that you really do not really have much time for.  When you become a partner you got to then rely on your team to carry on being good at what they do and doing the work whilst you are looking after them, making sure the work is coming in, making sure the clients are happy looking for new opportunities, all of that sort of stuff yeah.

Emma:  How do you manage that sort of additional pressure?

Rob:  My wife has just trained as a counsellor so…

Emma:  Helpful.

Rob:  So, every night about nine/nine thirty she asked me how my day has gone, and it sort of goes from there.  I think by, look it is a lot of additional pressure, but equally if you boil it all down, I'm moving money around for people.  There are no life, or death situations with what I do, and I try and keep stuff in perspective as much as I can.

Emma:  I wanted to take you back to the start of your career now and just ask what was your experience of applying for training contracts?  What was that like?

Rob:  So, I am going to give a shout out to Jonathan Chamberlain who is one of our other partners.  Jonathan came to my university when I was a student and he was talking about this firm that he worked out in Birmingham called Wragge & Co as we were at the time and I was quite a proud Midlander, still am a proud Midlander and I just thought wow that is, that sounds like the firm for me, that sounds like the place I want to work at.  I remember talking to him afterwards and I remember him saying you should come in and do an open day and so I did an open day and I mean the process was difficult simply because there are so many firms to apply for and the advice that I was given which I think is good advice is not to apply to them all at once.

Emma:  Yeah.

Rob:  Because I think I had got in my original list of firms that I was looking at around the midlands, 90 plus firms.

Emma:  Wow.

Rob:  And you have to find some way of whittling those down with actually very little in the way of practical knowledge and what they all do and how they differentiate themselves from each other.  So, I went small.  Out of those 90 I think I applied to ten. 

Emma:  Wow.  It is a big job to whittle a list of 90.

Rob:  Particularly when you, all you know is what the firms are telling you. 

Emma:  Yeah.  Yeah.  Is there anything that you can think of that you know now that you wished you had known at that point sort of early on in your career that would have been really helpful with hindsight?

Rob:  Do you know what this is a general point about my career as a whole is calm down.  I get very, I am quite single minded about things and so I think there were times when I was trying to rush through the process to get to the next whatever it was and with hindsight, I don't think I have got anywhere any quicker than I would have done if I had just taken a step back and taken it a bit more slowly so particularly with the application process.  I think there is a sense of OK I need to get into it, I need to start drafting applications, I need to get something on paper and perhaps just slow down and ask yourself what do you want out of your life, out of your career because different firms are going to give you different things.  You know, are you financially motivated, are you motivated about the sort of work that you are going to be doing, are you motivated about the people that you are going to be working with because different firms will paint a different sort of aspects of that.

Emma:  Yeah.  And what led you to when you qualified to go into the area of law that you are in now?

Rob:  Well I have just been talking to the trainees about this because it is seat move time at the moment, so we have had a sit down to talk about the seat move process an dhow that is going to work and I told them the story and this was secret up until now so we can, this is an exclusive, I didn't want to go into property litigation as a seat I didn't really like property that much.  I did like litigation and so I thought tactically what I might do, get property out of the way early, do a bit of litigation at the same time because I really wanted to be an employment lawyer like my hero, Jonathan Chamberlain, and actually so I perhaps didn't come into the seat with quite as open a mind as others might.  Like I say, this has been a secret that I have kept since 2010, so it is all coming out now but it's fine, I think I have done alright since.  But, actually then coming into the seat, I learned a lot about it and there are some particular idiosyncrasies about property litigation as an area so for example, we have an organisation called the Property Litigation Association which is as exciting as it sounds, it is a group of property litigation lawyers from across the country who meet together we had our annual dinner a few weeks ago, but actually having that support network and that group of people that do what you do, it is a really nice area to practice in, but also it influences the way that you practice because the person that I am arguing with today is going to be the person that I am in the room with having dinner with next week at the annual dinner so it tempers most of the time the way that you deal with people and that is in a lot of cases to the clients' benefit because we get stuff done. 

Emma:  Yeah.  And actually, just as an aside, it is often the things you are not looking forward to that end up being really good and really exciting.  We are going to take a really short break now and then we are back, we will find out some more about Rob's advice for people at the start of their careers. 

Emma:  Welcome back to part 2.  We are going to kick off now with some quick fire questions just to get to know you a little bit more so we will need to throw some random questions at you.  What is your favourite biscuit?

Rob:  Milk chocolate malted milk.

Emma:  Oh yeah, I like a malted milk.  What was your first job?

Rob:  I worked in a bar.

Emma:  Favourite animal?

Rob:  Ooh that is difficult, I think probably otter.

Emma:  Arh.

Rob:  Yeah, a big fan of an otter.

Emma:  Any particular reason?

Rob:  I just like otters. 

Emma:  They are cute.

Rob:  Yeah, they are yeah.

Emma:  They are really cute.  Is your bed made right now?

Rob:  Yes.

Emma:  Everybody, everybody makes their bed apart from me.

Rob:  It wasn't me that made it?

Emma:  OK.  That makes me feel slightly better.  What time do you usually wake up in the morning?

Rob:  I'm an early bird.  So, I am up usually at five-ish.

Emma:  Yeah.  Fabourite movie?

Rob:  Um that is tricky, but I have just watched Wicked, so it was incredible.

Emma:  I could talk about Wicked for the next hour.

Rob:  We might have to after we've finished with this yeah.

Emma:  Yeah.  Amazing.  What is your dream holiday destination?

Rob:  Dream holiday destination?  That's actually difficult.  Why is that so difficult?    Um I have always fancied New Zealand but yeah let's go with New Zealand. 

Emma:  New Zealand.  What is your hidden talent?

Rob:  I don't hide it very well, but we know I run the firm's choir.

Emma:  As I say you are not hiding that one.

Rob: I'm a really loud clapper, I'll clap at anybody I know.

Emma:  I feel like you need to clap now.

Rob:  Well, I'm not sure you would be able to take it.  Do you want me to try?

Emma:  Try.

Rob:  It is very, very loud so in concerts my wife won't sit next to me if I am clapping.

Emma:  Oh my God.

Rob:  It is very loud. 

Emma:  I really need to hear it.  I'm ready.

Rob:  [clap].

Emma:  Jeez.  That is a loud clap.

Rob:    Yeah.

Emma:  That was a good one.  What is your go to karaoke song?

Rob: Um as you know I am classically trained, but at the moment I do like a bit of Sweet Caroline.

Emma:  Yeah.

Rob:  Or Hey Jude anything that gets people going.

Emma:  People going.  Favourite season?

Rob:  Autumn.

Emma:  Yeah.

Rob:  Are you a Swifty?

Rob: Yes, my daughters are as well.

Emma:  You are the first Swifty we've had Rob you've made my life.  Follow up question what is your favourite era?

Rob:  That is a tricky one.  Turning it around, what's your favourite era?

Emma:  I think it is Folklore. 

Rob:  Do you think?

Emma:  I think purely because it got me through covid without having a mental breakdown, but Reputation is very close second on that. 

Rob:  You might have to come back to me on that one.

Emma:  OK.

Rob:  I'll pass on that one.  I'm not sure I'm ready to…

Emma:  It is hard to commit.  Couple more really quickfire ones, cats or dogs?

Rob:  I've just had a cat, but I'm now got a dog so feel disloyal to my cat, but it has got to dogs at the moment.

Emma:  Yeah.  Are you more of an introvert or an extravert?

Rob:  It is really weird isn't it?  It depends where I am but an extravert I suppose mostly. 

Emma:  Yeah.  A night out or a night in?

Rob:  Um a night in probably.

Emma:  Pineapple on pizza.  Yes or no?

Rob:  Yes.

Emma:  Yes, and you already answered this one earlier, night owl or early bird?

Rob:  Early bird yeah.

Emma:  I am happy I've found another Swifty.  I cannot explain the joy that that has bought me today.  Right, I mentioned at the start that you have got a couple of roles aligned to our early talent programmes at the firm.  The first is that you are the firm's training principal.  What does that mean?  What does that entail?

Rob:  So officially that is an SRA role which means that I am the person from a compliance perspective that is responsible for signing off the trainees' training contracts when they come to the end of them o say that they have had the training that the SRA requires, they are OK to be released into the world and to be fully fledged solicitors.  So, the role actually could begin and end there, but I have taken it slight wider because I think firstly, I'm passionate about early talent.  This was my firm's the firm I trained at, and I am passionate that we continue to develop and nurture right the way through from being trainees all the way we hope to directorship or partnership or whatever they choose to do with their careers.  So, the way that I am seeing at the moment is partly from a compliance perspective, partly from a pastoral perspective because I think that the trainees should have somebody else within the business to talk to if they have got issues albeit we have got you know our wonderful early talent team of Lucy and Sophie who spend a lot of time with them and each trainee has got a supervisor and a partner principal so there is plenty of people around but there is an alternative and then I like to see it as a slight strategic role as well so looking at the size and shape of our early talent recruitment and looking at how we make sure we are getting the best out of people so at the moment, we have been looking at feedback how we appraise our trainees, how we just slightly changing our feedback forms to actually make sure we are getting the right amount of constructive feedback to allow trainees to understand where their strengths lie, where their weaknesses might be, which areas of you know the skills of an associate lawyer, they haven't yet had an opportunity to develop and you know throughout the life of their training contract you know just making sure they have got a nice well rounded education. 

Emma:  Fantastic.  The second role I mentioned is that you are one of our partner principals supporting trainees.

Rob:  Yeah.

Emma:  What does that mean?  What do you do for that?

Rob:  So every trainees will have a supervisor in their team who will give them work, who will supervise them day to say so over the life of their training contract, they will have four people that will after them four other lawyers that will look after them dealing with their legal work.  Sitting above that there will be a partner who is not usually in the team that they are sitting in who will oversee their progression through from being a first seat trainee all the way to completing their training contract and the idea is that each trainee then will have someone with complete oversight of their training contract who will be able to identify the themes that come our of each of their individual seats because if you think from the supervisor's perspective they will see a trainee for six months and it might be that themes emerge over the course of the training contract which individual supervisors won't pick up because you have changed the supervisor but that a partner principal will be able to see and I would hope then would be able to help the trainee to make sure that they are getting the right experience to like I say have a really nicely well rounded training contract.

Emma:  I'm guessing that there is quite a bit of mentoring involved in that role.

Rob:  Quite a bit of mentoring so I say to my trainees, if she needs to speak to me, let's just an appointment in the diary, we'll sit down.  So I always go to appraisals to the mid-seat appraisal and to the end of seat appraisal but we will sit down two or three times during a seat anyway to talk about objectives, to talk about any issues that have come up, to talk about actually what seat choices might be next, qualification options, all of these different things and general things about being a lawyer, I've had times when we have just been giving general life advice all that sort of stuff but it is just really nice to be able to nurture young talent and see people through it into qualifications.  We have had some of our, some of my former trainees when I was a supervisor have no come through into the partnership and that makes me feel really old, I'm only 40 would say that, but that is really nice seeing people….

Emma:  Nice to see that progression of people coming through.  You are also involved in a lot of various vacation scheme and trainee assessment centres, and these can be really quite scary for people.  What would your advice be for anybody  preparing to attend one.

Rob:  I am going to give three bits of advice because I like to do things in threes.  So, my first one is don't waste the opportunity, it is a great opportunity to be in the firm to get under the skin of get under the skin of the firm, to have access to parts of the Intranet that you don't have access to when you are outside the firm.  Use the vacation scheme to learn as much as you can about what this firm is about, the about the ethos, about the people, it is a two-way process, it is not just a fact of we like you, do you like us, is this where you see yourself working?  So, that is number 1, take the opportunity and use it.  Number 2 is and this applies to the application process as well it is not the time to be shy, ask the question, go for the coffee, ask for help wherever you can find it, if you make a contact, you are going to have to perhaps push yourself out of your comfort zone and use that contact to your advantage.  I see so many people that will pluck up the courage to come over or ask me a question or, I get people contacting me on Linked In, I'm very happy for people to contact me on Linked In, but they'll ask a  question and then that will be it, I'll never hear from again and you think well you have made he contact, you have actually done the most difficult bit.  I have responded.  You then need to sort of keep up that contact because I've got loads of things coming across my desk, but I've always got time to nurture new talent so the second one definitely is don't be shy.  Really put yourself out there and I think that is the most difficult thing for quite a lot of people.  I see a lot of people come into assessment centres who don't say very much and unfortunately, we have got a marked scheme in front of us, and I can only give you a mark if you say something to allow me to give you a mark so now is not the time to be shy definitely.  Ans then the third thing is, and this applies to when you are a trainee as well, be curious.  Curiosity is probably for me the number one attribute that I want in a trainee.  A curious trainees won't spell stuff wrong, won't get the wrong company number, won't use a precedent blindly because a curious trainee will ask themselves why am I doing this?  Why is this going in?  And it is the same throughout the application process don't make assumptions about stuff, be curious, ask questions, lawyers particularly me love talking and I love talking about myself.  If you ask me about myself, I am very happy to give you the benefit of my experience whether you want it or not but be curious.  It is a really, really important attribute for a wannabe solicitor to have.

Emma:  Yeah.  You have sort of partly answered what my next question was going to be but just in case you have got more to add, I was going to ask what are you looking for in potential trainees?  Are there things that you are looking for in these assessment centres?

Rob:  So, certainly curiosity and certainly that ability to not be shy and to put yourself out there.  I suppose to slightly alter the question what I am not looking for is someone who entirely dominates the conversation, someone that takes over and does not allow others to speak to it is a bit of a balance so if like me, you are one of those people that has a tendency to get in there and get stuck in that is great, don’t allow that tendency to become taking over and not letting anybody else speak.  So, we are definitely looking for that.  I am looking for normal people.  I had someone on a vacation scheme probably eight years ago who had done music at my university and he was sitting with me and everyday virtually I asked him a question about music and everyday he would reply with something like I'd say something like so what pieces are you playing, I think he was a clarinet player, what pieces are you playing at orchestra at the moment and he would say something like this "oh yes so you know we are playing this Haydn symphony but I think that being in an orchestra is a really important teaches really important skills that you need as a lawyer and they are really transferrable" and I am like I wasn't asking that.  I just want to know what you are playing.  I just want to know you are a human being and you can talk to me like a human being, and I think sometimes people come into this process with a misconception that the have to make everything about the process and being a lawyer but one of the things I want to do with my trainees is to take them with me to see clients.

Emma:  Yeah.

Rob:  The thing I love about , I'll embarrass her now but about Abbie who is one of our associates who was one of our apprentices is that I can take Abbie anywhere with any client and she will be brilliant at striking up a conversation because she is really curious, she asks questions but also because she has got a really lovely manner about her and she is able to talk to people and put them at ease and just keep the conversation flowing actually much better than me.  I love taking Abbie for lunch with clients because it takes the pressure off me to talk all the time.

Emma:  Yeah.  Can you think of a piece of advice that has stuck with you that has really helped you in your career so far?

Rob:  I would say it is don't assume that because you are less experienced that other more experienced people are right.  Actually it comes back to curiosity but I think particularly with trainees and junior lawyers, there is an assumption that if a more senior lawyer says something or if a client says something it must be correct and quite often if your instinct is I'm not sure about that go away and check it because we will thank you for pointing out our mistake and so don't assume that someone more senior is right just because they are more senior. 

Emma:  Yeah.  On this series we have talked to a lot of people about the different things that they get up to at the firm that are outside of the day job and with this in mind, I couldn't and we have brought it up a couple of times already, but I couldn't finish today without asking you about the Gowling WLG choir.  Can you tell me a little bit about the choir and how did that come about in the first instance?

Rob:  So, it came about in my training contract interview.

Emma:  Wow.

Rob:  So at the end of my vac scheme we had our interviews and at the end of the interview, someone it was Carly who was our old, one of our old HR advisors said what would bring to Wragge & Co and I panicked a little bit and now to set the scene this is 2020 like Gareth Malone is just about beginning to become popular and I hadn't got very much to bring to Wragge & Co, but I said I'll start a choir, I'll start a choir.  In fact, I started my partnership interview with a joke, and I said if you put me on the spot, I might offer to start an orchestra.  So, I sort of said I would start a choir and then fast forward to probably 18 months later, I thought well I've said this, I've started my training contract, I ought to try and start now.

Emma:  Yeah.

Rob:  And so who did I go to but my old friend, Jonathan Chamberlain who had told me during the course of my vacation scheme that he did a bit of singing so I asked him whether he would be interested, there were a couple of other partners, Jane Fielding, who helped me on my vacation scheme.  It was all about employment.  I wanted to be ana employment lawyer and Suzanne Lloyd-Holt who actually was a property litigator at the time so various people said they were interested and it just snowballed from there really and at the same time and this makes the firm sound tiny, it's not I promise but my brother was actually applying for a training contract as well because he just copies everything that I do and so I thought he's very good at singing, he also did a music degree because he copies everything that I do, so we brought him in and now he and I run the choir together so we have been going since Christmas 2010.

Emma:  Wow.  And it is amazing because I have to admit when I first joined the firm and the first Christmas here there was a carol concert that we do every year and I went along to it thinking oh you know sometimes you go to like a school performance and they re all a little bit rubbish but you are like they are ours sow e love them.  I went and my mind was blown that first year.  The choir are amazing.

Rob:  We have had a good year this year.  We have done, we sang at Westminster Abbey, we have sung at St Paul's Cathedral.  We did a couple of concerts.  We have got the carol service, we are doing something with a charity called The Choir with no name who are a charity made up of people who have experienced homelessness and we are going to London to sing in our London office as well so.

Emma:  Fantastic.

Rob:  So, it is busy Christmas period.

Emma:  And it is jut lovely sometimes if you are walking around the building and when the choir are practicing and just to hear that is just, it is fantastic.

Rob:  It gets better the closer towards Christmas you get.  Don't walk round in September expecting much.

Emma:  And then finally my last question for you today was what is the best thing that has happened you this week.  It can be work related, it can be outside of work just the best thing that has happened.

Rob:  Um so I was in London yesterday seeing some clients for lunch which was very nice but I found out mid-afternoon that it was the London office Christmas party well the real estate group's London Christmas party so I got to go along to that.  It was nice.  Nice to see colleagues, nice to have a chat and a drink.

Emma:  Perfect.  Well, I just want to say a massive thank you for joining me today and having time to speak and to share your story and your guidance and advice for people starting out as well.

Rob:  Thank you very much for having me.