Rod: Good evening, everybody. My name is Rod Escayola and I'm your condominium lawyer at Gowling WLG. Here it is, after a summer break hiatus, folks, we're finally relaunching the Condo Advisor webinar series. It's going to be a new and improved sort of brew in. I'm just making that up. It's just going to be the same old gang presenting the same old things, I guess. But we're hoping, tonight we're going to talk about COVID a bit, but we're hoping to be able to shake off this topic and eventually sort of widen the horizons. Here we are, launching our webinars series on September 9. So what I've done, I've called upon the fab 4 and our two condo twins to see if they were willing to jump back in and join us, and to my surprise everybody said yes. So everybody's back. Well, the two twins didn't really have much say into it, but the other guests are here so you'll see some friendly faces. Now keeping with tradition, we've looked for a them to introduce the panelists tonight, and we decided to go with an 80's theme simply because being reunited again tonight together, talking about COVID again tonight, it just felt like going back in time. It just felt like a Groundhogs Day that just is on repeat. So here we are. We're going to go around the table and reintroducing your friendly crew. From Apollo Property Management, he's warned us that he'd be back and here he is, Sean "The Terminator" Cornish. Hi, Sean. How's it going?
Sean: Excellent, Rod. It's very good to be back and it's nice to see everyone was able to get a post-COVID haircut, post-confinement haircut, not post-COVID. I'm looking forward to this.
Rod: Thanks so much for being here. And from Crossbridge, speaking on behalf of ACMO, just made it in the door at the last minute, manager extraordinaire who's really just wants to have fun, Katherine "Cindy Lauper" Gow. How's it going, Katherine?
Katherine: Girls just want to have fun and what's more fun than back to school time?
Rod: That's right. From Lash Condo Law, speaking also on behalf of the Community Association Institute of Canada, living in a material world and updating you on material changes to the Condo Act, Denise "Madonna" Lash. Hi, Denise.
Denise: Hi. Great to be hear. Can't wait to talk about virtual meetings.
Rod: That's right. And of course our condo twins. I'm sure you picked up on the fact that they're actually wearing the same colour today. It wasn't planned but there it is. Two condo lawyers at Gowling WLG, we have Graeme and David, aka "Milli" and "Vanilli", lip synching tonight to the COA tune. Hello, boys.
Graeme: Howdy.
David: My shade of red is slightly darker.
Graeme: Yeah. For the record, they are different shades of red.
Rod: That's right. And finally, from the National Life Safety Group, the man who never takes a day off, Jason "Ferris Bueller" Reid. How's it going, Jason?
Jason: I'm fantastic. Happy to be back.
Rod: Now, the chat line is open. I think David's going to try to moderate that. If you have a question you can try to sort of put them in the Q&A section. If we don't answer it then you'll know that for sure we're just ignoring you and we just ran out of time. Now before we jump in, your favourite part of the webinar, the disclaimer. So for those of you watching this webinar we ask you to keep the following in mind. First, when we refer to legislation we're referring to the Ontario legislation. So if you're listening from abroad you'll have to may be do some tweaking to what we say. Also keep in mind that the information that we provide as of today is accurate as of today. It's September 9. 5 o'clock. So just keep that in mind if you're watching this in a re-broadcast. Most important to keep in mind that the information we provide you with tonight is general in nature and may not necessarily apply to the specific situation you're in. It's really important for you to seek proper advice tailored to the facts and to your situation and whether you need advice from a lawyer or a manager or an engineer or security advisor. Make sure that you get the straight goods. Finally, for some weird reason, I have to tell you that the seminar is being recorded. But the good part is that I will be uploading it to the Condo Advisor site. So if you're listening to the presentation tonight you'll be able to watch it as a re-broadcast. Don't ask me how long it takes to upload it. I'm not the one doing that. I'm not that smart but we usually take about a couple days to a week to upload it. Okay, so there it is. Where we at now? Let me just move on to who's going to present, there it is.
So, for the Dallas fans out there, and by Dallas I'm really referring to the TV show. You know how every episode would start with "Last on Dallas". So we're going to do the same here. Where we left things off we were in the middle of a pandemic. The Province was shutdown. We were still in Phase 2 and maybe, David, you can update us on what has happened since we last parted on June 24.
David: COVID's still here but the technical emergency has ended. So the emergency period and all the legislation related to that, the Emergency Management Act, has now been replaced by Bill-195. So this is the Reopening Ontario Act. At the end of the day many of those same orders that we had beforehand remain in effect. They're just, now it's more simple and agile for the Provincial government to be able to amend some of those Orders going forward. But we're all in Stage 3 as of mid-August. Everyone, all of the public health units made it into Stage 3, so as you've all been experiencing, a number of facilities around the Province have been reopening with restrictions. Things like gyms, stores, casinos, restaurants. I've been enjoying the patio scene for as long as the weather's been lovely here in Ottawa, unlike in Denver. I don't know if any of saw that. The Denver had a massive snow storm and 110 degree weather within 24 hours of each other. So, global warming. Just on the condo front, you can now realize that the real estate agents are allowed to hold open houses, so that might be on thing affecting condos. There are certain public gatherings that are allowed, limited again. It's 50 indoors and 100 outdoors. Again, keeping in mind that condos can be more restrictive than permissive and we'll get into that in more detail later on. We're all now in Stage 3, for another 4 weeks, before government recently announced as the number has been spiking slightly in certain areas, we're likely to stay in Stage 3 for 4 weeks.
Rod: Okay, and things to keep in mind is so that now we're in Stage 3, and we'll talk about that tonight, you get all sorts of owners and all sorts of labours that are pushing and screaming and demanding that you re-open your amenities and so I think tonight we're going to start talking about Stage 4, which really only applies to condo land, I think, and trying to balance as we're reopening on many fronts. For that to make sense, people are going back to school and the gyms are reopening and so on and so forth. We sort of need to also try to balance that with being more careful on different fronts. So we'll see how that Stage 3, or as Katherine referred to yesterday when we were practicing, the Stage 4 to come. How does that apply to condo land? I think I forgot something before we go on. Learning opportunities. David updated us on how we got to where we are now. But September's upon us. People are going back to school and there's all sorts of learning opportunities for the condo geeks out there, watching tonight. Denise, do you want to update us on, really I think it's Canada's first virtual condo conference, that's coming up.
Denise: Yeah. it's going to be really interesting. This is CAI Canada's virtual condo conference so it's going to be interesting. If you can attend, it's free for members. It's $35.00 if your not a member. It's over 2 days but you can visit virtual booths which is really interesting. Then of course there are going to be sessions that I know that, I think the three of you are speaking, like Rod, Graeme and David. You're all speaking at the conference on interesting topics. It pays to go on to the website and see what the agenda is, and then see the booths, because I'll be there, Lash Condo Law, and we're giving away free socks but you have to attend to get your pair. So well worth attending for various reasons.
Rod: Nice. So Canada's first virtual condo conference, just around the corner, and $35.00 if you're not a member and you can look at the agenda and you can register by going on that website. Katherine, I think yesterday we were talking about ACMO has its monthly webinar.
Katherine: We do have monthly webinars. Our next webinar will take place on the 30 of September so log into the ACMO website to register. We're also restarting luncheons but of course in a virtual format. The first of those will take place on the 23 of October. We'll also have our awards ceremony to take place in conjunction with our November 27 virtual luncheon. So all of you out there in condo land who have a terrific manager, please look our for your opportunity to nominate them for one of our awards. Finally, we have a survey out, currently, to all of the managers in condo land and if you haven't already done so please participate in that.
Rod: Okay. Wonderful. So now that the housekeeping is out of the way. Something happened this summer. Various municipalities, initially, they took the position that you had to wear a mask in any indoor public space. But the for some weird reason they excluded condo land. Then after that they came back and they said, "Well, please, could you kind of consider that." Then they came back to the drawing board and one municipality after the other, quite a few of them, adopted what they should have done in the first place, a municipal bylaw regulating masks in common elements. Graeme, can you sort of update us on that? Where do you we stand on to mask or not to mask in condos?
Graeme: Well, a lot of the cities across Ontario, we've listed here on the slide here some ones that came to mind, it's entirely possible that in smaller cities or municipalities similar bylaws are in place. So it's important to always check with your municipality. But if you're in a condominium in any of these places, for example, regardless of whether your condominium has a rule or a policy in place about masks and mandating that you wear them in the common elements, it doesn't matter. Because, for these places at least, the municipalities have in place bylaws that are mandating masks for enclosed spaces and that's going to include your common elements. Between each municipality the bylaws vary to certain degrees but the main features that you see repeated in all of them are that, for one, the responsibility to enforce these bylaws rests with the operator or owner of the enclosed public space. So that would be the condominium. This is something that condominiums should be aware of and keep in mind that the responsibility is often theirs and they're the ones who will be looked to when it comes to compliance or not. Then most of them also have in place a requirement that, in addition to that masks be worn in the enclosed public spaces, that mandatory signage go up explaining the requirement to wear masks. They all have exemptions to them to. For example, if there's a child under a few years old, or certain children with certain developmental issues who are under 5 years old, may not have to wear a mask. People with certain medical conditions, or who are engaging in an activity that requires them not to wear a mask, can be exempt. So rather than review the legislation, not that I'm sure everyone would love that, they're all viewable very easily. You can just do a quick Google search. Enter your town name or city name and mask bylaw and it will certainly come up. We can put up links to those too. But what's important to keep in mind too is, with those exemptions that I just listed, the bylaws all tend to say that no one can be required to give you proof of an exemption. So if someone says I have a medical condition that pursuant to which I'm not going to be wearing this mask, the municipal bylaws in place don't allow corporations to require proof of these things, under those municipal bylaws. Now, it's also important, I think, to just briefly touch on some of the differences between city to city. One of them that I kind of mentioned a couple of seconds ago was the requirement to enact a policy. For example, in Toronto the municipal bylaw actually does require operators of enclosed public spaces to enact a formal mask policy versus in Ottawa, for example, that's not required. Similarly for enforcement purposes there are different levels of authority given to the operators of these spaces. In Ottawa, if you find someone who is not complying with the bylaw, the bylaw simply says that they are to be given a verbal reminder. Whereas in Hamilton, with the iron fist of the law, they've held that if you find someone not complying they can be asked to immediately leave. It's important to check what your municipality is doing and see what the various nuances are where you are and make sure that if, for example, you are in a municipality where a policy is required that your condominium get one going. Because ultimately the responsibility to follow them lies with the operator of these spaces.
Rod: Right. So, Graeme, one of the questions that came up a few times already in the chat channel is so where would we be required to wear a mask if some of these bylaws were in place. So wherever these municipal bylaws are in place, what we mean by having to wear them in enclosed public space? What does that mean?
Graeme: So that would mean any indoor common areas. Your hallways, your elevators, your gym, your stairwells. Am I missing any? Yeah, party rooms. The whole gamut of everything that is an interior common area.
Rod: Right. Many of these municipal bylaws have exceptions in addition to the exemptions. They have exceptions. For instance, if you're involved in a physical exercise, including water sports or water based exercise, they are not expected to wear it.
Graeme: Yeah, exactly.
Rod: But you would have to wear your mask to the gym, and maybe actually to the treadmill, and then when you start exerting you wouldn't have to wear it anymore. Obviously once you jump in the water you don't need to wear it. But have a look at your specific municipality to make sure that you comply with the bylaw, either as an occupant or as a corporation, because as Graeme said sometimes you need to adopt a policy, in addition to having to put signs up and so on and so forth.
Graeme: I saw a really good question in chat. I just want to assure you that that is going to be something that gets discussed is that, you know, something I said for example, is that in Hamilton the bylaw says you can ask that person to leave. But if they live there, if they're an owner there, that may not necessarily apply. We're going to talk in just a little bit about mask policies or enforcement of them.
Rod: Oh, that's right now actually. Okay, perfect.
Graeme: Well there you go.
Rod: Let's do that. I want to maybe turn to the managers. My first question will be to you, Sean. Are you faced with many exemption requests and how do you deal with that? And, Katherine, the question for you will be are you being asked by owners to crack the whip and enforce it? So back to Sean. Sean, are you faced with a lot of requests for exemptions and how do you deal with those?
Sean: There's been a lot of, I'd have to say and it's probably overused, but surreal moments in the life of this pandemic so far. Masks are one of those. It's such a contentious issue in so many areas but not in Ottawa. We had a bylaw that was passed in early July or mid-July for public spaces. Then that was extended with a direction from the public health to condos. Not a requirement. Just a direction. Then that was followed by a bylaw that then extended it to condos and apartments. But throughout that whole process it hasn't been a contentious issue. People have been very willing to wear masks. We haven't had a lot of issues where we've had to deal with people not wearing them. For the most part the approach from Ottawa Public Health has always been more on the education side. The encouragement side rather than enforcement side. So anytime we've had any issues with people not wearing them, simple reminder, simple gentle suggestions, have generally led to compliance without any conflict or any further issues. We have not had a lot of complaints from owners about other residents. It's generally going to be contractors who are trying to get in and not following the rules. But again, we're a lot stricter with them. They're not allowed in if they're not complying. But residents are much more, you know, they're neighbours. They're all in this sort of community. They tend to take it much better. So we really haven't had to deal with exemptions and having to either question it or not question it.
Rod: So how about you, Katherine, are you being asked by owners to crack the whip and enforce it? Are people sort of ratting out the neighbour and how do you deal with those situations?
Katherine: I think, for certain, folks are concerned. Especially because of the density of the residences in Toronto and the proximity of folks needing to use the elevator. Where there are people who have exemptions, they would advise us that they have exemptions. We also have taken the honey rather than vinegar approach and we found that to be the best in terms of gaining compliance, either in reminding folks to wear masks, or for those who require exemptions. Speaking with them about right of way in the elevator. Right? So if somebody else is in the elevator, you're someone who can't wear a mask, it perhaps is reasonable to wait for that person to have completed using the elevator before forcing your way into it, for instance. A lot of what we are learning in condo land, and in the wide world, on account of COVID is how to be patient and how to be accommodating of each other. How to be understanding of one another. I think, in large part that is part of what our best practices are, is to gain that level of understanding amongst everybody who lives in the corporation. One of the questions in the chat is whether I would consider the underground garage, for instance, as an area that requires a mask, and I would. One of the other things that Sean touched upon, and I'm sure Jason will agree with, is our tact is quite a bit different with contractors because our relationship with them is different and our authority with them, in a lot of ways, is different. The other thing to consider and to contemplate is how we can ensure that protection and safety of condominium workers and employees, if you do have somebody who is unable to wear a mask, and we chatted briefly about how to engage with people, how to maintain distance and how do use things like plexiglass barriers when communicating with them, in order to ensure safety.
Rod: Right. Denise, maybe I'm putting you on the spot, but in Toronto you have to prepare policies for condo corporations. Do you have enforcement sort of mechanisms in your policies and how do those work?
Denise: When we started hearing about the potential for mandatory mask wearing and policies, our office is really concerned that we better, when we draft these policies, make some really good enforcement provisions. So what we did is characterize mask wearing as something that's for the health and safety of its residents. So if somebody breaches it is in breach section 117 of the Condominium Act and so the policies refers to enforcement letters, breaches, commencing compliance applications. We put it all in there because we wanted to make sure we could enforce it. Now, I tend to agree with Sean. We haven't had to enforce. It looks like, for the most part, residents are complying. It's something that's very interesting. I didn't expect it which is a good thing. So, really good enforcement provisions that we haven't had to use.
Rod: Right. Perfect. Okay, so that's about masks. We've got to keep moving, folks, because time is ticking and we want to try to fit it within an hour. Who am I kidding? Not going to work. We'll try. The next topic is AGMs, AGMs, AGMs and whether or not they can be held virtually. Whether or not we need a bylaw. The landscape has changed so much this summer that maybe if we could get an update from, I'm not even sure who's supposed to speak about it, Graeme, you're up again. Yes.
Graeme: Up again.
Rod: So, maybe help us understand what does the landscape look like now, keeping in mind that we get an email yesterday from the Ministry sort of tweaking that again.
Graeme: Yeah, yeah. We'll get into that and the kind of intrigue that follows. But for now in terms of what is solidly in place, as David said, on July 24 they formally announced that COVID's still here but the quote/unquote emergency period is over, as of July 24. What that meant for condo corporations who hadn't held their AGMs yet were that the corporations whose AGMs were supposed to be due during the emergency period were given an extension of 90 days, or in some cases 120 days, to hold their AGMs. I think the easiest way to illustrate will be on the next slide you'll see, even if you want to go there now quickly, this is a chart that I find very helpful and anyone we've shown it to finds it helpful, to calculate when your AGM is supposed to be now based on when your fiscal year end is. This takes into account the emergency period and Bill-195 that ended it and all that stuff. This is available on Condo Advisor and, Rod, are we going to post the slide show as well?
Rod: Yeah, we'll post the slide show. But if on Condo Advisor, if you click on the AGM calculator the first link brings you to that, because we're still in the exception period. But there it is. So find the end of your fiscal year. It'll tell you when you have to hold your AGM and it'll tell you when you have to send your preliminary.
Graeme: Your preliminary, yeah. So, rather than read those all to you there it is. You'll see here that there is one big date in yellow. That's because there's also a very important date with respect to the deadline to hold virtual AGMs if your condo doesn't have a virtual meeting/voting bylaw. That deadline, if you don't have such a bylaw, is November 21. Which is actually a Saturday so you may want to treat it as November 20. This, I think, raises an interesting question that will probably lead into the email from the Ministry that we just talked about. But there could then, feasibly, be a situation where a corporation is in a bit of meeting paralysis. If they wait too long and don't hold their AGM until after November 21, and they don't have a bylaw yet, they're in a position where we're still stuck with the 50 person rule. So they may be in a position where they can't hold the meeting in person because there's too many people, but then they can't hold it not in person because they don't have the bylaw yet, and they might be stuck in a sort of meeting paralysis. I think that might be a good segue into the email from the Ministry.
Rod: Who's going to talk about that?
Graeme: I might lean on Denise to help me out with that one.
Denise: Alright. It was interesting. When I got the email I was expecting a lot more but what it did say was to confirm that the deadline for your AGM is, as you've got on your chart here, so that is not going to be extended. Which means, condominium corporations, you've got to hold your meeting before, whether it's the October deadline or November, and I know that there are service providers that don't have evening meetings but you've got to hold them. So you've got to do it on a weekend and, Graeme, when you said that November 21 is a Saturday, well, service providers are providing meetings on the weekends, just to accommodate the demand. So, weekends, daytimes. Don't have it in the evening and make sure that you fulfill that requirement to have your AGM before the deadline. Now what's very interesting, if you look at that email that went around and I did follow up with the Ministry, it talks about the other part of this which is virtual meetings. So not just the AGM deadline, which we know cannot be extended, but having a virtual meeting without a bylaw. I think the words are the Ministry is exploring extending that period.
Rod: So I moved the email on the screen but it's really not helpful.
Denise: Well, I got an email yesterday from the Ministry confirming that the Ministry is considering, what does that mean, I don't know. But extending the ability to hold a virtual meeting without a bylaw and also email consent. So right now in order to get notices by email, after November 21, you would need consent or agreement from owners. They're looking at extending that as well. So two things. So we'll just have to wait. Whether that happens or not, we don't know. So in the meantime you get your bylaw in place.
Rod: Okay. So I guess the lesson from this segment is this, the deadlines to hold your AGMs, regardless of how you hold them, those are not extended and those are the dates, on the screen, that you have to abide by and it's based on the end of your fiscal year. That's lesson number one. Lesson number two, if you want to hold your AGM virtually, electronically, you either have to do it before November 21 if you don't have a bylaw authorizing you otherwise to do so, or if you have a bylaw authorizing you to hold a virtual AGM, then you could hold it after November 21. But that extension may actually change, depending on which side of the bed Doug Ford wakes up one day, or whoever is drafting the legislation. So there it is. I think to play it safe you should adopt a bylaw, going forward, in any event. So that's for that. Are we done with this? Yes. We're done.
Graeme: Yeah, I believe so.
Rod: Okay. Let's talk about how virtual meetings have unfolded because when we're talking about it last spring, we were talking about like this, it was going to be like sort of the best thing since sliced bread. It was going to be fantastic. It was going to resolve the crisis in the Middle East. Everybody was going to be happy. Everybody was going to be friendly. But now some of these meetings did take place and so I'm going to turn to both you, Graeme and Sean, to maybe tell us whether or not virtual meetings have lived up to our expectations. Maybe Sean. How did they go?
Sean: Yeah, I share your enthusiasm, at least at the beginning and It's actually carried through. We had a turnover meeting that was held fairly early on in the process, or in the emergency period, and it was a gong show. It was a 16 unit building. It took about 2 hours to get through a turnover meeting. Which really there isn't that much to do other than elect a board and turnover the documents of the corporation. That was the low end as far as the experience goes. Since then it's been very positive. We found a lot of owners are more engaged in the meetings. They tend to be more efficiently run, depending on the Chair of course, but that's always the case and very good. The only difficulty they were having is that there isn't consistent acceptance across our portfolio. So we do have certain boards, certain owner groups, that are not accepting of virtual meetings. So they're going to, in some cases, fairly extreme lengths to try to hold in person meetings rather than a virtual meeting. To the extent that some viewed it as actually illegal because of the potential disenfranchisement of elderly owners who might not have access to technology to participate. So we've had the full range of responses, but overall it's been very positive, and we've certainly encouraged the passing of the electronic voting bylaw, to be able to continue in the future beyond November.
Rod: I'm a bit surprised. Well, I'm not surprised to hear that some people are resisting and some people are sort of not overly keen on it. But in my experience every single time that we've held one of these meetings people were satisfied. People were quite pleased with the outcome and this sort of urban myth that the elders are not able to figure things out on the internet, I mean that has not panned out. It's really like coaxing your buddies to jump into the pool. Every single time people were happy in the pool. It's never happened that somebody left the pool saying, "I knew I'd get wet. I hate it." That doesn't happen. You just need a bit of coaxing. It's a lot more difficult to explain a virtual meeting than to actually do it. But, Graeme, you've Chaired quite a few of these. How did that go?
Graeme: Yeah, I've been lucky enough to help out a couple of condominiums with their virtual meetings. I got to say I think the process works really, really well. Assuming that the planning on the front end has been done correctly and everything goes well at the meeting. We'll get into some sort of tips and tricks but it's like Sean said. I think, in my view from what I've seen, the owners tend to be a lot more engaged and care more about the issues and tend to be paying more attention. I think that the meetings are more well planned and well thought out. I think they run a lot more efficiently and quickly. In my experience the meetings tend to end a lot earlier than what we're used to seeing in AGMs. Not that everybody doesn't like spending their late, late evenings sitting in an AGM. I think it's a lot easier to do if you can do it from your sweatpants in your living room for one less hour and still get all the business done alright.
Rod: Right. Some of the drawbacks, Graeme, I see here that there's a mention, how do we deal with people without computers?
Graeme: Yeah, so, and that is a drawback. The workaround for that is that most platforms for virtual meetings can have people call in and participate by way of phone. The drawback with that, unfortunately, is that it does lead to a little bit less participation from those people because it's harder to engage with them. But I mean I think, and I think David encapsulated it best in one of these webinars that we did, we often hear that elderly people sometimes feel like this isn't fair, that they're being left out, but the entire purpose of this whole setup is to make sure that elderly people, like all of us, are kept safe and able to participate as much as possible. I think that's the way to think of it and it's like you said, Rod, it's just like jumping in a pool. I've helped out corporations where they've warned me that either board members or large groups of owners are really resistant to this idea and it's not going to work and then it runs fine. The owners who they said would never figure it out are the first ones to raise their hand and offer something at the meeting. I really think it's just an issue of like you said, it's a hard concept to get your head around but once you see it happen it's remarkably easy.
Rod: Right. So for those without a computer I guess they can call in but they would have to cast their vote ahead of time because you cannot vote and you can't raise your hand by phone and you can't really participate. By phone it's like listening to a radio broadcast and so that's certainly not as the same level of participation as if you were to login. Because when you login you can raise your hand, you can type in a question, you can speak, you can have your microphone turned on and so on and so forth. So that is maybe one of the drawbacks. Tips and tricks. Who's going to tackle that? Graeme? Are you going to give it the go?
Graeme: Yeah. I can talk about what I've seen that's worked. I can tell you that things that really worked and make the meeting go very smoothly are if at the beginning of the meeting you kind of set the housekeeping and ground rules. What I mean by that is, for example, just so everyone knows at this meeting we're going to be responding to questions if you raise your virtual hand. If you write something in chat it's not going to get responded to. So please, if you want to be heard, raise your hand. We will get to you in the queue. When you're doing things like that it's important that before you start the meeting you make sure that everyone know, okay, so before we get to business here is how you raise your hand. Here is how you do this. Here is how you do that. Just so that everyone feels like they can do it and you run a few tests with the audience before you start. It's never been a problem.
Rod: Let's do it. Let's ask people that are watching the webinar to raise their hands to see how easy it is. There it is.
Graeme: There you go.
Rod: There it is. Everybody's raising their hand.
Graeme: The nice thing about it too is that it actually tracks, manager YCC75 flashed his hands in the last, you actually pressed the button first and it does track that for us so that it does create a queue that we can fairly get to who put their hand up first.
Rod: There it is. I'm lowering all your hands. You don't get to vote. You don't get to speak. Okay. Back to you, Graeme, anything else?
Graeme: Yeah, one other very important thing, and I think something that a lot of owners were concerned about with these meetings, was that it might be too easy for the Chair of the meeting, if I'm the Chair, it might be too easy for me to railroad through it and ignore an owner who's asking questions I don't like. It's very important, I think, to the fairness of the meeting that whoever's Chairing it, make sure that when somebody is given an opportunity to talk you need to open their microphone, let them say their entire question. Don't cut them off at all. Give them an answer and then see what they respond to that because the last thing you want to do, if you're controlling the microphone, is to be cutting people off. Because that's something that we lose from in person meetings is peoples ability to make sure that they're being heard. I think you have to go the extra mile to make sure that the meeting is transparent. That I think, frankly, is just a benefit to the meeting.
Rod: Yup. Similarly you can make the questions visible by everybody. Right?
Graeme: Yeah.
Rod: It's all in the setting. Where you going to say something? Go ahead.
Katherine: I think the opportunity that you have, further to your point Graeme that's really important, is you can see the transparency and action. Right? You can see all of the people in the audience who have raised their hands. You can acknowledge each and it's fair, as you've said, in terms of who gets to speak first. I think that also you're not distracted by the side conversations or discussions in the background.
Graeme: Yeah.
Katherine: The other opportunity that you have in a virtual setting is to use a specific form strictly for troubleshooting issues and causes and some of your service providers can help somebody who might be struggling in order to participate well. I think it offers some distance in having a host that's completely objective to the process as well. So it helps the Chairperson to demonstrate the fact that they're being fair and equitable to all of the participants of the meeting.
Rod: Right.
Graeme: Yeah, absolutely. That's my last tip and trick too. I think it leads very well into that is that one of the most important things you can do is make sure that clear instructions are sent to everyone. Easy to follow, step by step instructions, just so all people have to do is click this button, type their name here and that's that. Then it's done. It's over. It's not that hard and so I think, like Katherine said, one of the extra value items that you get when you go with a professional, one of the service providers that can help put these meetings on.
Rod: Right. Perhaps, maybe, one of the bigger challenges that we're faced with now is platform availability. I don't want to name service providers, but I will anyway, I know that GetQuorum earlier on indicated that their evenings were pretty booked but they had day availability. They had maybe weekend availability and I know that they're working on another system where there's probably going to be more like a self-serve kind of product that they're about to launch, maybe in early November. CondoVoter, and Denise may be you can talk about that, but I know that CondoVoter also is offering daytime, weekends, weekend evenings, weekend days, but the demand, there's a lot of demand for CondoVoter. Do you know? Can we speak to that, Denise?
Denise: Well, yeah, there's a lot of demand. I think CondoVoter is doing between 4 to 6 meetings every evening but they've offered it up to weekends. As I said before, weekends and daytime. It really pays for people to inquire with all the service providers and say you're flexible. Just daytime. You could really hold these meetings during the day. Most people are available.
Rod: Right.
Denise: It's important to get those meetings and the bylaw passed.
Rod: Right. I know that for managers are also providing that service. Some minute takers are providing that service. Some lawyers are providing that service. We're actually, at Gowlings, we're hosting tones of AGMs coming up. Our evenings are filling up as well. We still have availability but there's a lot of people out there that are providing the ability. If CondoVoters booked on the evening that you want and you don't have the flexibility to find another time, well, there may be other providers out there. And there's others, actually, there are others. Now, how does that work for voting? I saw a question, Denise, I'm going to put you on the spot because that wasn't rehearsed yesterday. But somebody asked, "Well, how does the voting work?" and I sort of understand that this is probably like two streams. One thing is the platform itself to host the meeting but how do we deal with votes at these meeting?
Denise: That's right. CondoVoter does both and they could offer the electronic voting separately. But you know, Rod, how. You've done it. You sort of have to be trained on voting electronically, yourself, if you're Chairing the meeting. These meetings, I think where other lawyers are offering them, I don't really know. Our office has. They're really proxy meetings. You have your Zoom platform and then you go and you collect your proxies. That's how you conduct those meetings.
Rod: Right, right. Some of them are, I know the way we're providing. We're providing the both the meeting and the ability to vote electronically. We're doing that but we're really doing that to help people that are in a bind because at the end of the day that's not the business I'm in. I'm no IT person here. Anyway, so reach out to the providers and try to see if they have some availability and try to be flexible. Because they're the professionals and it's so smooth. I've done some with both main providers and it runs so smoothly when you give them the whole thing and they deal with it and they deal with the notices and they deal with the voting. It's a beautiful thing. So we're running out of time but maybe next webinar, Denise, we're going to talk about hybrid meetings and how people are presenting that like the new world. But we'll have to talk about that next webinar, I think. Because the main topic today, at 5:42, was the reopening of your amenities. That was the main topic and I always keep it for the end. I keep the best part for the end with Jason, mainly. So what do we got here? Where do I start with this? I have been approached by both groups and they're both enraged. Some groups that are begging and pleading and screaming to have their amenities opened and they're telling you, "Well, listen. The Good Life is open and the YMCA is open. How come we can't open?" and I've also been approached by other people that are asking me to make sure that I prevent the corporation from opening their amenities. What I've done today, a very briefly and anecdotally, I sort of reached out to some property managers to get a sense of how open are they amenities in condo land so far? I was a bit surprised because it felt that Ottawa was maybe a bit more open and maybe it was to distract us from other scandals that are taking place on Parliament Hill. I don't know but we're a bit more open. I think we're probably 40% of the condos down here seem to have opened some or most of their amenities. But the sound that I get from the GTA is that maybe it's closer to 20 or 30% of condos are opening their amenities. So let's turn to you, Sean. What is being opened and how are people tackling this?
Sean: Yeah, you're absolutely right. There's a lot of, sorry, I shouldn't say there's a lot. Certainly there are some people agitating for access to amenities. For the most part, through the summer, it related to outdoor amenities. Beautiful rooftop patio nobody was accessing. So that was really kind of the big push. We've got a bit of that mixed bag as we talked about. Probably 40 to 50% for us and it's the range. It will very much depend on the community as well as the type of amenity. Outdoor pools have been opened, very good guidelines from Ottawa Public Health on that. Outdoor terraces or patios, even with or without amenities like barbeques, are being opened. Party rooms are typically remaining closed, minimizing the exposure to larger gatherings. Guest suites are typically remaining closed. Billiard rooms remaining closed. Libraries are a hit and miss. We've seen some open where they have one week periods between lendings as a way of trying to address the protecting the borrowers. So it's a bit of a mixed bag but our approach has always been, as you opened with at the beginning, a bit of that balance, right? As things open more in the rest of the Province, in the rest of the cities, you want to maybe be a little less open in other areas to balance that out. Because we see the risk is increasing and it's going to continue to do that. It's going to be start and stop, start and stop as we go through this, until we get through it. Just because of the nature of the way the virus spreads.
Rod: Right. In fact the numbers, the bad numbers, are increasing. I mean the cases are increasing across the Province. Certainly in Ottawa as well. There's more cases being detected. These numbers are really pre-school opening. And you know how that works. If you send your kids to school within a week everybody in the household gets pretty much every illness that's in fashion that year. Katherine, I'm going to turn to you. How is Toronto tackling reopening amenities?
Katherine: I would say that the situation is the same. Perhaps some additional consideration, in particular in Toronto, where we're very much vertical communities some thought had been put into whether that's going to increase pressure on things like the elevators. Once again, every condominium corporation is different. They're different in terms of the resources they have available. The size of the rooms, in particular, and a lot of thought has been put into the plans by the boards and their managers about what they can arrange and how they can ensure that there is safety. The other piece, so following up on both what Sean and yourself have said, if you haven't opened your amenities tomorrow isn't the greatest day because you're starting to see more activity because of schools and the interactions of people there. I don't know that you want to encourage more interactions within your condominium if you haven't already started. Some of the gyms in condo land are very small. One person. One unit per booking. As Sean and I discussed when we were preparing the other day, 45 minute time frame so that you've got some sanitation time in between. And, of course, making sure that you have documentation so that you can contact/trace out if public health were to inquire with you. Boards have thought about how we move in a way that is a continual plod forward as opposed to having to having to jump back. That's because they've listened to public health recommendations. People have said that that is harder on our little brains. It's better to know what to expect than to plod along. The other thing that they've contemplated is, when and if, they would actually close amenities that had been opened. Some of them had talked about numbers out in the community or numbers within their walls, if they were to find out about them. So those are other things to think about and, yes, valet services have reopened in portfolios that I am working with, with some specific sanitation processes in place, of course, and protective protocols.
Rod: You're just bragging about valet service. You just want to show off. You guys have valet service.
Katherine: Much to my chagrin, yes, yes.
Rod: Well, we also have valet service here in the countryside in Ottawa but it's for the library, really.
Katherine: And for skies, right? Don't you have a ski valet that just puts your skis away and brings them back out afterwards?
Rod: That's right. So before I go to Jason, and Jason you're going to walk us through the analysis and the precautions and so on and so forth, I'm just going to do one last stop with legal, with Denise. I assume that condo boards are going to you and they're asking you so what's the recommendation? And they're relying on our legal recommendation because of the protection that flows from having followed the advice of a lawyer. So what is the advice and is there a one size fits all advice, Denise?
Denise: No. It's the same advice I think that Jason will probably give is that when is it safe to open up the amenities? You know, each corporation has to different amenities. Some gyms may not be safe to open while others it may be if the protocols are put in place. So it's really specific to your condominium corporation. It's not one size fits all. It's maintaining those protocols and then being aware that what are you going to do if something happens. So you better be sure that you're following the protocols and have that in place properly.
Rod: Right? And that's the thing. When people ask us about that I remind them that the condo corporation is responsible to control and manage and administer the common elements and I also remind our condo corps that you are responsible to take reasonable precautions to ensure the reasonable safety of those on your premise. If the COVID hits the fan, and you're being asked what precautions have you taken, you're answer can't be nothing. We're in Phase 3 or Stage 3 and we just opened everything and Vive la France That can't be the answer that you're going to give when you're going to be cross-examined. The question will be what precautions have you taken and you have to take reasonable precautions and there's a range from taking no precautions, bad idea, to never opening your amenities until they come up with a vaccine. Right? So that's at the other end of the range and it's becoming more and more difficult to sort of keep the amenities closed, indefinitely, and I'm not sure that that is necessarily required, depending on your set up and so on and so forth. But there's a range. There's like worlds between these two extremes. What we've done, I mean I have a list of about 23 questions you should ask yourself, and ask yourself which of these precautions would fit in my condo corp. The liability is now what we call strict liability. If somebody sneezes you're not automatically liable and responsible. You're not going to have to pay damages. It's going to be a question of what precautions have you taken, right? So have a look at this endless list of precautions and ask yourself which precautions make sense for you to be in the safer zone, or closer to the safe zone, as opposed to no precautions. Keep in mind that gyms continue to be a high risk activity. Even for the Province. It's really, possibly, one of the last amenities that you should open because it presents a higher level of risk and because the Province is expecting additional precautions. If you look at when the Province did allow gyms to open they had a list, a shopping list, of precautions that they wanted the YMCA and the Good Life to take. Well, that should be an inspiration for you.
Before I turn to you, Jason, I'm just going to wait until I run out of time for you, just like I usually do. Sorry about that. But the last thing I wanted to do before I turn the mic to you, I want to talk about online booking and touchless booking. There's all sorts of possibilities out there. I'm just going to talk about one. I'm going to talk about this one here that I stumbled upon on Twitter. It's SecuredCondo that's offering that. I'm sure there's others that offer that but basically they set it up for you and you can see there's various sort of amenities that are opened. Well, the gym is closed in that example. The barbeque is open. The pool is open. When you go and you book, what it allows you to do, it allows you to select a time where you want it. Whether it's going to be 45 minutes or whatever it is, right? When you pick a time then it tells you what days are available and so on and so forth. Let me see for this to work. There it is. So it tells me these are the options, right? So I can book, let's say at noon for that day, then I complete the information. What's my unit number? What's my name? And so on and so forth. Just going to remove a phone number here. I don't want people to start calling me. What I really like about this one is that it actually puts to you the COVID screening questions, basically, and the booker has to answer these questions. They haven't been in contact with somebody that was sneezing. They don't have COVID and so on and so forth and then there's an acceptance of terms and conditions. Then, I assume when you submit it, I'm not going to submit it because I don't want to take someone's spot away at noon, but basically this is one example and it's fully in line with what the Province recommended for gyms. Online booking. The ability to trace. The ability to know who used it when. The phone numbers to call them and so on and so forth and you've got the questions that are included. If you don't answer the questions you can't book it. So anyway, there it is. I hope I didn't steal all your thunder, Jason. But onto you now. What's the analysis? How do you tackle this? I think I have a mic for you.
Jason: Listen. Oh, thank you. I see it up on the screen. I mean, I think the really important take away is that I think it's important to have a plan and that plan, at times, will identify that you should not open up that amenity. Each plan should be specific to that specific amenity, specific to that building, within that specific geographical location. So when we talk about risk we look at the design of the room and its intended purpose versus its actual use. I've toured many a gyms that were used to be garages or shops or guest suites that were turned into gyms. The ventilation systems, or the design of that system or the access control to that amenity, may not be suitable for all openings. So that's a part of that risk review. The demographics of the building absolutely play an important role on whether you decide in your plan to open up that amenity or not. The geographical location, known hotspots within the Province. The density of that community. If you're in a community that is very dense, St. James Town is one of the most populated areas in North America, that would be one area that may have a higher risk of transfer, in that area. Travel in route requirements in actually getting to the amenity. Some amenities are easily accessible. You're not forced to send a high amount of traffic through the lobby, through the elevators, through the touch points, but again these are all little considerations that the condo corporations can utilize. Facts to consider, I'm not going to go through all of them, but there are some big ones that you want to make sure you're doing. New policies and protocols and communications to the owners. This is critical. So one of the best practices I've seen is that you develop a 2 or 3 page plan, for each amenity, that covers the risks and some of the considerations that you're looking at and then discuss this, some of the things that we've got up on the board here, as far as factors to consider. But as soon as that 2 page plan is done for that amenity I suggest you not only post it at the entrance to that amenity but you post it or share it with all your owners. Why? Because you've done some really hard work and some research and analysis, whether or not to open this. If your plan says you should not open it, then you don't open it and you'll be very transparent and allow everybody to understand why you didn't open it, and if you did, you're also being transparent allowing them, the owners, to understand your limitations and exactly what you're cleaning. Because in a recent interview, and I'll end here, of residents in 4 or 5 condos that we've just recently visited the majority, and when I say the majority, the majority of residents did not have a clear understanding of what additional cleaning was. Or those schedules. So I'm a big firm believer in being transparent and then you can have everybody understand your plan.
Rod: Right. Perfect. Well done. I think we're pretty much within our time limit. That's fantastic. I'm trying to do two things at once.
Graeme: Rod, Rod. We're professionals. We would never go over the limit.
Rod: That's right. Okay, well folks, that's about it for us. We're going to do as we usually do. I'm going to go around the table. Try to get within 30 seconds, 15 seconds for Katherine, I'm going to try to get sort of your parting words and then after that we'll talk about next webinar. Going around the table, in alphabetical order, I'm going to start with Sean, "The Terminator". Sean, thank you so much, from Apollo Property Management. Thanks so much for your time and wisdom. Parting words?
Sean: Keeping it simple, I feel a bit of Back to the Future, same thing. Take your time. Think about how you're moving ahead and no rushing into it. There's a lot going on especially right now. So, you can observe and make sound decisions going forward.
Rod: Okay. Wonderful. Thanks so much and from Crossbridge, speaking on behalf of ACMO, Katherine Gow, words of wisdom before we go?
Katherine: Winter is coming. I know we've just barely finished the summer but some of the tasks that we would normally prepare for in winter might be more difficult to accomplish and some of the cabin fever is bound to set in again come winter time. So if you haven't already turned your mind to what you're going to do through this winter I think it's time to start.
Rod: Yes. Thank you very much. Thanks for being with us tonight, Katherine. Denise Lash, from Lash Condo Law and speaking on behalf of CAI Canada, thanks for being with us. Parting words of wisdom, Denise, until next time?
Denise: Well, it's really reminding everybody to attend the virtual conference next week. There's going to be great information. Graeme's going to talk about virtual meetings, hybrid meetings. Rod, you're going to be talking about very interesting things with David, so please attend. It's really worth the $35.00 or free if you're a member. September 16 and 17.
Rod: Wonderful. It's just around the corner. From our condo twin, Graeme "Milli" MacPherson of Gowling WLG. Parting words of wisdom?
Graeme: Obviously, be careful if you are going to be a lip syncher because it will catch up with you and ruin your music career. Second of all, thank you very much everyone for tuning in. We know it's been a while and we do appreciate everybody taking the time from their evenings to come be with us tonight. Thank you very much and it's good to be back.
Rod: Thank you. From Gowling WLG, David "Vanilli" Plotkin. Words of wisdom.
David: We talked a bit before about Orders still in place and certain things coming and going. My litigator is going to show right now but the limitations period that were suspended during COVID are re-upping as of September 14. So if you are involved in some sort of litigation or contemplated litigation, and that was put on the back burner, definitely get in contact with your counsel choice because the limitation periods are back and the clock is ticking and Zoom Court is the new way of doing things and it's actually worked pretty well so far.
Rod: Also, David was preparing to argue before the Divisional Court. It was on an appeal and he showed up wearing a suit and tie except he was wearing shorts and flip flops. But nobody knew better. And so, last but not least, from the National Life Safety Group, thank you so much Jason Reid for being with us. Any words of wisdom before we go?
Jason: No. Thank you. Again, I echo the transparency. Eventually owners are going to request some form of documentation that says how did you decide to determine not to open the amenities? So the plan is a good process either way. Good luck.
Rod: <laughter> I love that. I love that. Okay, folks, so we're not going to do weekly webinars because I've aged about 10 years when we were doing that. We're going to do them monthly. It's going to be the first Wednesday of the month, unless something happens, then we will regather quickly. But the first Wednesday of each month. So the next webinar will be October 7 at 5:00pm. Information will be posted on condoadvisor.ca. You'll need to register again but you may have noticed that registration was different this time around. Hopefully you found it easier and this is where you'll find the information about the webinar, simply by going to Condo Advisor and click on the webinar tab at the top. That's it. That's it for us. We're 3 minutes over the hour but I can't think you enough, all of you on the panel, and everybody at home for taking the time to joining us tonight and we'll see you in about a month. Thank you very much everybody.