Daniel Leather: Today we're pleased to welcome Sustainability Director of Thakeham Homes, Josie Thornewill. Recently appointed as the first Future Homes Head of Zero Carbon Placemaking and Nature – wow, that's a mouthful! – Josie will play a central role in determining how the sector meets its climate and environmental targets. As an organisation Thakeham Homes has been at the forefront of low carbon innovation leading the way in its commitment to net zero and becoming the first housebuilder on the SME Climate Hub to join the United Nations' Race to Zero campaign. As Sustainability Director Josie is tasked with turning these ambitions into a reality.
Welcome, Josie. We're absolutely delighted to have you on the podcast to talk about the work that you're doing.
Josie Thornewill: Great, thank you for inviting me.
Daniel: So you and I have chatted sort of behind the scenes Josie and there's various questions that I think I'd like to put to you as part of this podcast and observations and I think, you know, Thakeham Homes has taken a really bold and ambitious approach to climate change. Can we start by getting an overview from you perhaps of your strategic approach to net zero, and how you're working towards achieving that?
Josie: Absolutely. So at Thakeham we've got three big commitments towards carbon neutrality by 2025. The first one is Net Zero Carbon Homes in Lifetime Operation. Now we haven't put in any sort of complicated transition plan because we want to make it really simple to our customers so that they can trust that if they're buying a home from us from 2025 that that home will be zero carbon. Now we know the tech and there's no big surprises but we are focusing on the fabric first because quite simply it doesn't require any maintenance, it doesn't go obsolete and people don't need to learn how to use it, any differently than they would normally use a home. The second one is addressing the next big carbon problem. The technical term is called your Scope 3 Emissions but what it really means is calculating the emissions from the materials that we use – that's how they were produced, how they were delivered to us and any waste as well. And finally we want to be a carbon neutral business by 2025 and we're going to do that one far easier and we've done it in some really interesting ways.
So it's not just about things like LED lightbulbs in your offices. Actually we found out by doing a huge survey of all of our employees that over 65% of people in our employee base were interested in getting an electric car. Now we know what the barriers are to that so we've tried to reduce some of them, the first one being, can they charge at home? So we've given every employee that wants it a £500 grant towards putting an EV charger in at their home and then they can have an interest-free loan for the remaining amount that we can take out of their salary. And we've managed to do that and keep the cost down by using the same supply chain that we use on our construction sites, the same installers that install EV charging points on our new developments.
So actually we're trying to help our employees as much as possible, it's not just about the office. So yeah, those are our three big zero carbon commitments.
Daniel: And that's fantastic, Josie, isn't it? Because you are effectively incentivising your people to lead the way and lead by example and, you know, as with all of these things, it does take those first early adopters, doesn't it, to lead the way and show people it makes sense. So you know, I think that is a really, really progressive, positive step taken by Thakeham and I'm sure there'll be lots of others in the market who will start doing similar things. On a slightly sort of related issue, obviously all the stuff around biodiversity net gain, and I'm sure that that is a very important part of your approach too, and I personally, as I've mentioned to you before, I really like the line on the Thakeham Homes website that says "We want seeing a hedgehog to be an everyday experience" and I like that. You know, it's really nice, it's relatable, and it's understandable. Can you perhaps explain why creating communities that are connected to wildlife and the natural environment is so fundamental to your approach.
Josie: Yes, it's all about that everyday experience, so the reason that we're focusing on that is because of something called Shifting Baseline Syndrome, so I'll give you an example of how that affected me. So my grandad Harry Capollida grew up in the Cotswolds and I remember going on walks with him and he'd tell me "I remember when all of this was forests, then fields, then busy traffic" and he'd tell me about the birdsong and the flowers, but that's not my experience and that's not my normal. So you know, generally housebuilders will focus on the technical detail. They'll talk about percentage biodiversity net gain, they'll talk about SuDs and SANGs, but what we actually need to do is improve people's connection to nature and improve everyone's normal. So that's why we're focusing on the personal touch rather than just, you know, everything else will come along with it, but you need to focus on the wider vision of what you're really trying to do, and that's all about everyday experience.
Daniel: And that, that's really powerful. I think that phrase that you used "Shifting Baseline Syndrome", I think it sounds like the approach that you're taking, you're trying to take that back. I think there has been an acceptance that, you know, in more recent times that what development means is a lot of concrete, steel and not much, trees, grass, greenery. But it's obvious that you are leading the way in terms of trying to reset that a little bit and change what the expectation is and I think that that is a much more scientific approach - I like that term "Shifting Baseline Syndrome", I'll remember that.
Josie: It's one of those things that it's… people don't see it happening, so it can happen over… it happens over generations because you grow up with what you think is normal and then that's what you expect to see, so what we're trying to do is, yeah, we're trying to reverse that.
Daniel: And we're all familiar with the phrase "new normal", it sounds like we're trying to reverse in some cases for the good to an old normal.
Josie: Yeah, we're trying to get back to my granddad's normal, yeah. [Laughs]
Daniel: Yeah, yeah, I like it, I like it. But it's not always easy, is it, all of this stuff? In fact, you know, a lot of the time it's never easy and so where are you finding sort of the most difficult challenges in achieving your objectives and how are you coming… how do you overcome the resistance to change?
Josie: So originally, if you went back when I first started, it probably would have been people. That used to be such a big challenge but actually at Thakeham, partly because we made these really big commitments that when we come to interview people or when we apply and get recruiters to have a look, it's one of the key things that people come to us at interview and say. So it's not even something that we necessarily ask at interview for them to talk about sustainability but they come to us because they've seen publicly that we've committed to stuff and then they know that that's what's expected. So it's certainly not the people any more. I'd say it's exactly what you said, when people think about developments they think it's a lot of concrete and not a lot of grass, actually I want it see further than that. I want something better than grass, I want hedgerows, I want trees, and I want forests as part of developments.
So really it is that 'what people expect as the new normal' and that's perpetuated by quite frankly some really poor development that has happened over the last 10, 15 years in particular. So it's those… it's that delay that's between the time that we put in a planning application and when we start on site, that's such a lapse of time where stuff does change. So the stuff that we're building now, for example at Woodgate, is exceptional, it's great. It's 33% above building regulations in terms of how good the fabric is but that's old news to us, that's a planning application that we put in eight years ago. So partly it's the inability for some housebuilders to think "okay, I'm putting in a planning application now, I'm not going to deliver it for another five years. Let's really over-egg it to build something that we expect to see in five years, not what we would expect to see yesteryear."
Daniel: And that's hard, isn't it, because of the pipeline, you know, the timing between identifying the site, securing planning permission and then delivering on site, there is a lot of crystal ball gazing and I think my perception on this subject I completely understand what you're saying about people and their understanding and the value they place on these items. But for me it does feel like, particularly in the last probably three years, that the sort of thinking around biodiversity and sustainability and the environmental impact on the development, it does seem to have accelerated quite quickly in a relatively short space of time and I think some of that is legislature, of course it is. Some of it is regulation but equally I do think the public conscious has moved… conscience has moved on a bit here as well and I think it does take the developers, the housebuilders like Thakeham who are really pushing the envelope to move it on to the next stage which is actually, you know, realising that demand, serving that demand for the conscientious consumer. You talk about electric vehicles, well, look, just look at the uptake in electric vehicles in the last couple of years, it really is moving very, very quickly. Do you agree?
Josie: Yeah, absolutely, and using your example of electric cars, we're at the point now where my electric car, it took me nine months for it to actually arrive. The amount of… obviously there's supply chain issues but the amount of demand that there is for these vehicles is extraordinary now and that's because there are also choices. But the problem is when you come to buy your house, your product options available to you, especially in the new build market, is clouded. You're not really sure which is the most sustainable option and that's something that's an opportunity that we need to jump on and it's… we started out just doing it in terms of how much that home is going to cost you which is obviously a huge deal for people at the moment and it will increase in November. So in terms of energy use and how much it's going to save you in terms of having a more sustainable home will save you money in running costs. That's only the first part of it though, we need to talk about the wider benefits in the same way for all of the product choices that you would expect from an electric car to a toothbrush to a, you know, a reusable bottle. Your options are endless in those markets, why not in housebuilding?
Daniel: We've talked about Thakeham incentivising its own people in terms of electric vehicles and charging points and all of that and just chatting to you I sense the energy that you've got for this subject, for your role for delivering change. Where does that sense of purpose and commitment come from for you personally but also for Thakeham?
Josie: That's a great question. So for me… so we… at Thakeham that drive and passion comes, it starts right from the very top, so we are very fortunate to have a really passionate CEO and then underneath that we set this really strong governance structure to say actually, you know, we are seeing these people join the business who are really passionate about sustainability as well because of the commitments we've made. Let's group all of those people together across different departments as part of what we call an innovation group and it's not called a sustainability committee, it's an innovation group. We think of new ideas, we come up with new ways of doing things and we feed off of each other. We're in a company that as you said, you know, we're doing some fantastic stuff and there's a lot of different projects that we're working on at the moment but there's actually only two and a half people in our sustainability department and, you know, one of them, the half a person is shared with health and safety as well.
So actually it can't just rely on me and my passion, it can't just rely on the CEO and his drive. Actually it really matters what one of our apprentice site managers comes up with to deal with rainwater harvesting on their site. It really matters what our IT graduate comes up with in terms of where our server is located and what sort of energy that uses and what our latest person that's joined the engineering department has learned in their degree about zero carbon concrete. All of these ideas come into this massive melting pot and that's the stuff that feeds what we do as a company.
Daniel: And I know you… you've chatted a bit there, Josie, about sort of looking within the company at all levels for people to bring innovative, different solutions here. But I suspect, you know, Thakeham, whilst it can try and lead the charge and lead the thinking in this regard and is now, you know, and has been for some time delivering, you know, more sustainable development and leading the way in that regards, I suppose the sense of collaboration here and the need for collaboration with other organisations is real, isn't it? So can you talk us through some of those sort of collaborative approaches that you've adopted as part of it?
Josie: Yeah, absolutely. Building partnerships is a crucial part of it, so like I said we've got a sustainability team of two and a half. Patagonia, clothing brand, really well known, super-sustainable, arguably one of the most sustainable companies in the world, they have a sustainability team of five people and the pure reason for that is it's not the sustainability team's job to do all of the sustainability. You know, it's not just something we impart and then we drop it in a packet and then it's done. It requires loads of different feedback and there's no way that any sustainability team can know everything at once. Our best skill is knowing how to change things in different departments and really understanding the processes within the business. So that means we need to get outside help, we need to get experts that challenge us as well. We don't want to hear reflected back on us what we already think. We need really interesting different ideas and different opinions and that can totally range depending on the topic.
So we did something on plastics last year. We were actually supporting a group of rowers called Ocean Sheroes who rode across the Great Pacific in a race and they beat the world record and as part of that they were trying to raise awareness about plastics in the ocean. So we thought we'd do something internally as well and that involved everything from looking at every single different plastic that gets thrown away on a construction site to actually sending our teams out and doing litter picks across the beaches. So we paired up with Surfers Against Sewage, typically a very activist organisation, really passionate about surfing, to teach us about plastics. And then with things like Planet Mark who are related to the Eden Project, we talk to them. They've a huge membership base of people where they help them quantify their carbon emissions and actually they've got a really great members' area where all of their members have access to somewhere they can just drop questions in, and I had a question this morning about HVO fuel which is like a replacement for diesel because they knew that we had trialled it and one of their other members was asking for help. Now these aren't construction people, these aren't even, you know, within our industry at all, but we'll reach out and we'll help because actually it's about sharing that knowledge and Planet Mark help us do that.
And then there's all sorts of other ones – recently with Plant Life, right at the beginning of NoMowMay, we're now partners with them because we're looking more and more, like we talked about before, that everyday experience with nature and they're helping us with some of our work that we've already done on our SuDs, on our new development. And then obviously things like the Future Homes Hub that connects us to lots of different organisations.
Daniel: It's really powerful, isn't it? I mean, you know, listening to some of those collaborative relationships that you've developed, it does open the door to collaborate with those third parties who wouldn't normally be expected to be found in collaboration with the housebuilders, with the residential developers, and that, that is a real shift for me hearing that. You mentioned the clothing brand Patagonia, that has become a household name. It is a clothing brand that has sustainability at its core, you know, at its very start. It's not just doing it on the side, that is its reason for being, and I think that is the real shift in a lot of markets, not just in the residential development and housebuilding market, and that is the real shift change for me and it is led by a lot of things, you know, consumer demand and legislature as we said.
But it does feel like times have changed now and, you know, that is the thing that is pushing the envelope and driving the… where we're going. It is a massive task this, isn't it, and it is not, it's not a thing that is delivered overnight or a problem that is solved overnight and you have to break it down into its constituent parts and build it up. I'd be interested in asking you sort of what your immediate priority is here.
Josie: So obviously there are things that are isolated issues. We've talked about carbon, we've talked about Scope 3, there's also Scope 1 and 2 as well. We've talked a bit about water neutrality, biodiversity net gainers, other things like zero carbon trust, but all of these terminologies that are dealt with in isolation but they're all connected. Very much like seeing, making seeing a hedgehog an everyday experience, I want to see places that help everyone live more in touch with the planet. Now this can be through hedgehogs but it can also be through things like making the most convenient and intuitive option is for kids to cycle to school. And how do you do it? Well, at the moment you wrestle your bike from the shed at the back of the garden, you drag it either through the house or down the side of the house. By the time you've actually got to the front with the kids and their lunchboxes on the back of the bike with their helmets, it's just such a pain! You know, there's so many barriers that are stopping this from happening. It's not just about the house, it's about the route that they use to get there and making it safe and beautiful and natural and these priorities make me think about things like community and well-being all mixed up with the most exciting things like transport strategies, you know? But it's so important that we don't tackle transport in isolation to well-being and biodiversity. We've got to understand – that's my immediate priority, is learning as much as possible how this web works together of all of these different issues.
Daniel: And I can see that, you then effectively incentivise people to adopt an approach which is more environmentally friendly and sustainable and that's the real head-scratcher, isn't it? It's all very well having grand ambitions in terms of being more sustainable, being greener, but at the end of the day the purchase of a new home is a very emotive purchase, it is driven by geographical location, it's driven by needs for accommodation. So you've got to make sure that effectively green sustainable development and what you want delivering in that regard is competing with all those other things which are harder to change, and I think you are doing that by making nice environments, making nice communities, making it easier for people to cycle rather than take the car, and that is sort of, one of the secrets to the success and the approach I suspect.
I think in terms of sort of rounding up a bit here, Josie, and, you know, I appreciate that we're sort of crystal ball gazing again and I suspect in your role there's quite a bit of that that you have to do. And people talk a lot about the 2020s as being the decade for climate change and climate change action. Where do you hope that the industry is going to be at the start of the next decade, so at the start of the 2030s?
Josie: Well, I certainly shouldn't need to be talking about zero carbon homes because they should just be homes and I shouldn't be seeing stuff advertised that's called something like an "eco village", you know, no greenwash. It should be really clear to customers what a good development is and what's not, which one is going to make them live a more sustainable life, which one is going to make them happier and healthier? That should be really, really clear, and I expect to see things like the rise of environmental net gains, so making sure that we have a measurably better effect on an area than before we started work. So that could be water biodiversity, many more things all wrapped into one, and really understanding the difference that we can make on a development in terms of the ability to affect people's lives. Now whether that's the employment activities that are available on site but, you know, the things that we've talked about there that really come across and make you address more than one issue are things like how can we make it easier for kids to cycle to school, how can we make sure that seeing a hedgehog is an everyday experience? All of that stuff is stuff that really affects people's life and isn't just one thing you need to change, isn't just one box you need to tick, it's this whole network of things. That's what I want to see come through, that's the difference that I want to be able to make. It's not necessarily all about hugging trees and saving the planet. I want to make a difference to people's lives.
Daniel: That almost comes back, Josie, nicely to that Shifting Baseline Syndrome we were talking about and Thakeham wanting to address that and to address what the norm is and, you know, you saying "I don't want us to be branding developments as green areas, eco villages" because all of that should be a given, you know, the baseline should be reset to a more sustainable level and therefore this stuff should be second nature and will, we all expect, be what the industry is delivering and I think that underlines the approach that you're taking, the direction that the industry is going in.
You've underlined some of the collaborative approaches that you've taken in collaboration with some of those entities that five years ago would not at all have involved residential development or housebuilding, you know, they were periphery in doing their own things and fighting their course and now they are core to so many industries and that is thanks to housebuilders and residential developers actually bringing them in, taking their views, working in collaboration with them, asking them what they think we should be doing and vice versa, and you know, that for me is really, really interesting.
And you know, we've heard about Thakeham incentivising its people, Thakeham incentivising its purchasers, we've heard your passion and energy. I've really enjoyed chatting to you in preparation for this podcast, enjoyed the podcast in terms of your energy and excitement and interest and knowledge of all things on this subject and where you're taking this, and so I think it really leaves me just to thank you very much for your time. I've really enjoyed it. I think those who listen to this will really enjoy it. A lot of it will ring true with them so thank you very much, Josie.
Josie: Thanks, Daniel.