The Space: elevating early talent - episode seven - Kulraj Singh Bhangra

Emma Dennis:  So welcome to Season 2 of The Space where we breakdown barriers and perceptions about a career in law by talking to the talented people of Gowling WLG.  This time we are focused on early talent and we get to dive under the surface and understand the diverse experiences and perspectives of our people.

Today I am delighted to be here with Kulraj Singh Bhangra, a Trainee in our London office to hear more about his journey into law so far.  So good morning Kulraj.  Thank you so much for joining me today.

Kulraj Bhangra:  Hi, good morning Emma and thank you for inviting me to the podcast.

ED:  So you joined the firm as a Trainee back in 2023.  You are now going into your second year.  Your second year as a Trainee.

KB:  That is right.

ED:  I was doing some research before today and saw that I think you have got a very impressive education history from what I was looking at.  So, I think you have got a degree, a masters and a PhD?

KB:  That is right.  A long time in school basically.

ED:  And focused on, and I am trying to paraphrase here, but focused on medical engineering and technology and sort of that area.

KB:  That is right.  Correct.  Basically I did my undergraduate degree in medical engineering and then a postgraduate masters degree in medical technology entrepreneurship and after that I completed my PhD in bio-medical engineering and regenerative medicine and it was quite interesting because when I was going for my undergraduate degree I was looking at postgraduate options because I always envisaged a career in science. 

As I was completing my medical engineering degree the first two or three years up was solid concrete engineering and then you have got the medical application.  So you are sitting in with mechanical engineers.  The aerospace engineers but where they go and learn about turbines and engines we are focusing on engineering of the human body.  So if they are looking at flow-in pipes, we are looking at how the blood flows and blood vessels.  Or we are looking at prosthetics and as we approached my fourth year in this undergraduate masters in medical engineering, the university I was at had a lot of industrial connections and they came in and started talking to us more about commercialisation and how these medical devices can impact the life of patients and the legal and regulatory hurdles that they actually have to jump through to actually get the products to the patient which is not talked about enough in my opinion during the degree itself.  The first sort of primitive years.  However, in the fourth year, there was a huge focus on that and that is what sort of sparked an interest for me and actually there is a whole business and legal aspect to this which I do not understand that the moment but I am really keen to understand it because otherwise all the things that we are engineering or building will never actually make it to the bedside to help patients.

So I started looking at postgraduate options and I was surprised at how many opportunities there actually were out there for different universities for say, science or engineering and I saw an opportunity at UCL which was a doctoral training programme.  Now this comprised of a masters followed by a PhD and given that I had already done a four year degree I thought well, that is going to be a long time in university.  So I thought shall I just go ahead and do a three year PhD, because I have already got a masters.  Do I really need to do the doctoral training programme with a ma sters?  I spoke to a Professor who I used to seek a lot of advice from at university and he said well, you do not have an advanced postgraduate, you have got an undergraduate masters so you are going to probably have to do the advanced postgraduate masters, followed by the PhD and that is when I started learning about the fact that, oh I thought an advanced postgraduate masters but clearly not.

So I thought right, more studying.  But it was good fun because the course at UCL was very unique in the sense that (a) it was new course and (b) the structure of it was that even this advanced postgraduate masters I was doing, as students got to choose the modules we were doing.  So half of the course was business modules.  So we were sitting with the UCL school of business management and working with all the business management students and the other half of the course was very solid science where you are learning from, again, some of the best individuals and you get to choose exactly what you want to do.

So in my third year I was fascinated by this area called tissue engineering and regenerative medicine.  Essentially it is growing parts of our body or tissues in the laboratory and I just thought, that is fascinating.  I remember when I was doing my GCSEs, we used to see these photographs of mice with ears on them.  Have you seen that one?

ED:  Yes I have.

KB:  We all want to see it.  It has got to be done.  It is round on the internet as well.  But I thought that is fantastic how they have managed to do that.  Probably not for the mouse but the fact that technology is so advanced that we can actually help people who perhaps, have got problems or debilitating disorders and replace certain organs in their body like this and that is what led me to pursue my PhD after that in the area of nerve regeneration.  Specifically peripheral nerve regeneration.  We have got the peripheral nerves are basically in short the nerves that extend into our arms and legs as opposed to our central nervous system, which is comprised of our brain and spinal cord, and this particular area of research was actually developing artificial nervous system tissue in the laboratory, so we were essentially mimicking the structure of the nerve to help people who have got nerve injuries in their hand for example.  They could have digital injuries where there is a gap between the nerve and what we would do is essentially fabricate this or manufacture this artificial nervous system tissue in the laboratory and my job was to develop and commercialise that so it can actually help the patients who have got these injuries.

ED:  That is fascinating.

KB:  It is really exciting.

ED:  Yes, and you do not think, I think the point you said around sort of, as me being on the outside, you sort of see these technological advances in terms of healthcare and medicine but you do not think necessarily about the hoops that need to be jumped through to get that.

KB:  Exactly.  This is it.  You do not realise how much funding needs to be raised and the different type of protections you need that will perhaps raise the value of the business and attract investors, because essentially it is the money which keeps things flowing.  Whether that be through to clinical trials or otherwise so it is interesting taking a step back and looking at how it all fits together.

ED:  Yes, and so is it that then that led you to look to start to look to become a lawyer?  To look for training contracts and move in this direction to sort of influence and get involved in that aspect?

KB:  Yes, that is a great  question.  So like I mentioned, I have always envisaged a career in science, that is what led me to pursue my doctrine by medical engineering and regenerative medicine but at the same time, I have also appreciated how scientists can – the sort of the robust sort of analytical approach scientists take to structure their thoughts on paper.  I have enjoyed the writing aspect of it and learning about the wider commercialisation and I think given that my project had that commercial spin to it, because we were trying to use ingredients when we were making our artificial nervous system, tissue, that could allow us to take this project to the clinic very quickly.  So the source of your ingredients matters a lot and I was exposed, I could say very early on, to the concept of intellectual property rights and in particular patents and how important they are in commercialising and monetising research.

So this led me to consider a career in law and I started going to career open days and speaking with people in intellectual property and I settled on a career as a patent attorney.  So I began working at a trainee patent attorney at a very good firm in London and I enjoyed my work there a lot.  Essentially it was responding to office actions in terms of helping companies achieve patent grant and patent examiners would often send us reports saying we think this is perhaps, this invention is not novel or inventive because of, then they would state their reasons.  My job, or the role of a trainee patent attorney at least is to look at that in view of the law and rebut those comments and achieve a patent grant for our client.  It was very exciting work.  I got to work with some fascinating and some very, very clever people.

ED:  So what made you then, so you had this experience as a trainee patent attorney, what sort of then led you to think actually I want to go and look for a training contract?

KB:  I enjoyed my work there a lot which predominately involved responding to a patent examiners objections to a patent application.  However, I realised that as a patent attorney there is little scope to provide commercial and strategic advice beyond prosecuting patents.  For example patent attorneys do not generally consider how a patent would be used once granted but instead, and understandably, focus only on prosecuting and achieving patent grants.  So then I sort of had discussions with other solicitors and I began to understand what commercial law is and the fact that they usually work in multi-disciplinary teams and are expected to engage with a range of matters that cover a broad spectrum of a client's business and that really appealed to me.

So I realised that some people I was speaking to were advising and supplying chain contracts and mergers and acquisitions and getting involved in litigious matters.  So this variety of legal work I thought would present a very dynamic and intellectually stimulating environment to grapple with different types of legal problems.  So I thought actually I would prefer making that switch and I think I did it at a good time because it was during Covid as well so people were working more from home anyway.  So if there was ever a time to change I suppose it was a bit easier to do it in one way.

ED:  I think lots of people changed directions in Covid as well.  Just generally didn't they?  And so when you took that decision that that was the route that you were going to go down, what was your experience of then getting a training contract and things like vacation schemes and all of that.  So that can be quite a stressful time for people and with other people I have spoken to, there is everybody sort of trying to get these illusive training contracts.

KB:  Yes, that is a really good question and I think for myself, the process of getting a training contract was certainly unique in the sense that, especially coming from a non-traditional background having done the PhD and everything, the transition from academia to law felt like an uphill challenge at first but I quickly realised that my technical skills were a valuable asset in the legal world and I think it is something that perhaps a lot of people who pursue post-graduate study might not appreciate enough because one thing that people, perhaps on the outside of academia might not realise, that in academia you are focusing on a very niche topic and the amount of failure you deal with, perhaps experiments not going right, you need a lot of resilience and perseverance and all these skills which do not come out to you straight away, but then when you sit down and actually think and you have got some sort of framework like an application to actually apply this to and think about and write about, you quickly begin realising, actually there is all these skills that I did not even know I had.  But certainly in terms of recognising self-worth and the types of skills that you gained through X number of years of study, it is that consolidation and reflection is really important.

But the initial framework for me was understanding the legal sector and what I wanted out of a legal career because having studied so much it is going to be a few more years of studying before we actually start the training contract because you get the contract a couple of years before exactly.  So I spent time researching different firms and particularly, initially, because all knew was science and intellectual property and I was just beginning to understand what commercial law was and what commercial law firms actually do, I did initially start looking at practice with strong life sciences or tech sectors and IP practices and of course Gowling top of the list, because I knew my background could be particularly relevant in those areas but also firms that were all round great to train at.  So your usual magic circle and silver circle firms.

I then attended law fayres or open days to get the sense of a firm's culture.  Then came the applications which are very different to what I was used to in academia.  So instead of writing scientific papers, I was now crafting cover letters and personal statements highlighting how my research and analytical thinking and problem solving abilities could translate into legal skills and that is what I was going to a bit earlier in terms of that reflection and consolidation as to my skills and how they can be translated over.

Not so many firms highlight, I think all firms will highlight commercial awareness, so I made sure I stayed up to date with developments in the industries that I knew about but also wider than that.  It was as straight forward as just regularly checking the news and international news and then taking that a step further to begin thinking, okay how does this impact clients who we might be working for, or how does it influence the legal industry for example if it is an article on AI for example.  Lots of firms now adopting that into their service delivery.  So that will directly impact law firms and the service we are able to deliver to our clients.

The interview process was intense but rewarding.

ED:  I was going to say do you do a vacation scheme at Gowlings?  Do you remember that?

KB:  I did a vacation scheme.  I do and again it was an unusual one because it was on-line.

ED:  Oh was it during Covid?

KB:  That is right.

ED:  We have had a couple of people that have been through that.

KB:  Have you?  Yes, so I think it is a bit harder because it is harder to convey body language as much.  You know you're sitting over a screen.

ED:  You are limited to just a screen view.

KB:  It is always tricky because depending on where your screen is or where your Teams is positioned on your screen, the best thing to do is look into the camera but sometimes you are trying to look at people at the same time.

ED:  Yes.

KB:  You either end up looking at one or the other or your eyes seem to go a bit funny because they are trying to look at the camera with one and people with the other.  Gowling made it quite easy actually.

ED:  Good.

KB:  We had lots of breakout rooms and opportunities to get to know our cohort.

ED:  So your vacation team was one of the virtual ones during Covid, because I was going to say what advice would you give anybody who is attending a vacation scheme?  Or just more generally anyone now that is looking at firms to apply to this year.  What would be your top tips for them on things to be thinking about or things to be aware of?

KB:  I think it is really important to take a step back and just say it is really important to know why you are going into law.  What are your reasons and why you are specifically applying to that firm and I think often people can provide quite generic responses and they might not truly understand why that firm is important to them but most firms ask, why this firm?  They are all different in their own ways so I would firstly say try and really understand doing there, what your position is there, what people are trying to find out from you.  For example it might be your background or your skillset and I also think that, going back to my point, if you know why you are applying to a firm and you know what that firm is about and what you are trying to understand from your perspective what their culture is like.

ED:  I think as well, somebody in one of the previous podcasts made a point that, I think it was some advice that their mom had given them, was it is not just them wanting you, it is you wanting that firm as well.

KB:  That is right.

ED:  I think it is really important because there are so many law firms out there and to your point, you have got to find the one that fits with what you want to try and achieve in your career and also somewhere that you are going to be successful and be able to thrive and get the most out of it as well.

KB:  Yes.  Understanding why you are applying to a particular firm will, your enthusiasm and personality will naturally shine because you want to be there, as opposed to have to be there and having spoken to grad recruitment you can see the difference between people who perhaps actually want to be there or if it is just another option for them and it also comes across in attitude for example.  People often, without realising, will probably go onto their phones or start a conversation and these things are picked up.  So I think it is important.  Advice would be, be mindful of where you are and be engaged, be curious.  Ask lots of questions because the way I like to think about it is there are X number of people who would probably want to be in the position you are in and it is important to be grateful for that opportunity because the way the system works is that sometimes, probably very good candidates will be missed because grad recruitment have got a very difficult job of sifting through thousands of applications so statistically there will be people who will be missed.  So if you have got through definitely make the most of it and try and research people at the firm who perhaps have similar backgrounds or people who you find interesting and say to everyone, look I would love to actually speak to that person about you know their career journey or what kind of work they do and again it just goes back to my first point, if you have a genuine interest these questions will come to you.       

ED:  You can see when people are genuinely interested in the firm as a firm and I love the point you said about asking questions because having been involved in some of the assessment centres and the interviews, there is nothing worse than you get the end and you get either no questions from an applicant, or you get a question that is sort of a generic question.  The people that stay in your mind are the people that have asked you something and you are like, oh they have actually looked at something and that is quite an in-depth on something that has happened recently.  They are the ones when you think they really understand what we are about.

KB:  This is it.  Yes.

ED:  So, I think we will take a short break now and then when we are back we will find out some more around Kulraj's experience as a Trainee at the firm.

So welcome back to Part 2.  So Kulraj we are going to kick off with some quick fire questions to get to know you a little bit more.

What was your first job?

KB:  My first job I was a Receptionist at an NHS practice surgery.

ED:  Fantastic.

What is your favourite animal.

KB:  Favourite animal?  Probably orcas.

ED:  That is an interesting one.

KB:  Yes.

ED:  That is the first sea life animal I think that we have had.

Is your bed made right now?

KB:  Yes.

ED:  Everybody makes their beds in this firm.

What time do you usually wake up in the morning?

KB:  It varies anywhere between 6:30 and 7:30.

ED:  If you had a choice would it be later?

KB:  Probably yes, probably earlier you get more done.

ED:  What is your favourite movie?

KB:  Oh.

ED:  This one always stunts people.  People sort of immediately say oh it is a hard question.

KB:  It is hard.  I think I will go probably with, there are a few favourites but let us start with The Lord of the Rings.

ED:  What is your dream holiday destination?

KB:  If it is somewhere where I would like to go, I would like to go to New Zealand.

ED:  Yes it links in with The Lord of the Rings.

KB:  Exactly.

ED:  What is your go to karaoke song?  You can say you would not do karaoke which I have had before as well.  Or are you a secret karaoke star?

KB:  I think I do not have a go to karaoke song but if I were to choose one.

ED:  If you had to yes.

KB:  I think I would choose one with the fewest high notes to minimise the damage.

ED:  That is a good way to approach it.

What is your favourite season?

KB:  Winter.

ED:  I knew you were going to say Winter.

Right, this is a big question Kulraj because nobody has answered yes to this question and I do not think you are going to answer yes anyway but I may be surprised.

Are you a Swifty?  As in Taylor Swift.

KB:  No.

ED:  Nobody in this firm is a Swifty apart from me it feels.  Thank you for answering those questions.

So I mentioned earlier you started your training contract at the firm back in 2023.  So we are just over a year in now.  What has your experience been like so far?

KB:  It has been a fantastic experience so far.  I have wide experience in different practice areas and been able to work with some very interesting people who are at the top of their game and that is a privilege to be under their mentorship and when they send work back to look at how they are responding to clients.  How they are producing work and it is all sort of on the job learning which you just would not get otherwise.  So in terms of that it has been a brilliant experience.

I have also been able to get involved in some business development initiatives.  All of which is important I think as your career progresses and you become more senior I think it takes a bigger role in what you do.

ED:  The reality is we all work in a law firm and that is a busy and can be high pressure environment to work in but it is important that we make sure we are looking after ourselves as well so there are always going to be times where there are really long hours or it is working later or working on weekends or whatever that might look like for lawyers but the important bit is how we look after ourselves.

How do you make sure that you are sort of balancing, and I use the word balancing which I do not particularly like, but how do you make sure you are looking after yourself and balancing everything you have got going on in your life with work to make sure you do not get to a point where it is too much?

KB:  Yes.  That is a really good question.  I think it all sort of boils down to health and it comprises of mental health, there is physical health, there is social health and sometimes people can with spiritual health.  In essence you, and that might go with how your mental health is.  So for me when I look at those categories, okay how is my mental health right?  When I look at that, am I feeling stressed?  If I am feeling stressed what is the reason of that stress?  Okay is this a work product?  Okay why am I feeling stressed about this work product, oh because there is a high expectation on it.  Okay so the solution for me then is to communicate that expectation to the team that I am working with.  It is like, okay when is this work product due?  Sometimes, especially as Trainees we might be told to proceed with a matter, but it is our job to then find out, okay when is this work product actually due and ask the Partner because the Partners are so busy managing lots of files and lots of matters so we need to ask these questions because we could be putting undue pressure on ourselves.  You know, we might think that, oh it is due today or tomorrow and the Partner might be, no I do not I need this by next week and then you can space it out.

Often, again at Gowling, you get this opportunity to work with lots of Partners.  So it becomes even more important to manage those expectation and then if something is not possible then the Partners can actually go ahead and manage the client's expectations as well which goes part of, you know we often get told, we get feedback from clients that one of the things they value the most is actually just being kept in the loop and updated with what is going on.  So I think for me that sort of sorts out the mental health.

ED:  It is that conversation.

KB:  Exactly.  This is it.

ED:  That is what is important.

KB:  And within your team.

ED:  Yes.

KB:  You know, that clear and open communication and it helps because the Partners at Gowling are incredibly approachable and I often say this to people who reach out to me for advice for applying to Gowling, they say why Gowling and I say well one of the first things that I noticed about Gowling is that everyone is incredibly approachable and that sort of makes going to them about something a lot easier because you do not have to think about what might that person say or how might they take something.  You know?  If you are able to talk to your colleagues quite easily and in particular your senior colleagues it becomes much easier.

So for me, that sorts out the mental health part.  The physical health part I know people tend to go for walking to the office in the morning or go for exercise during lunch or perhaps finish a bit earlier and me personally I prefer doing some exercise either if it is early in the morning or especially in the evening or sometimes I cannot manage that every day because the hours are such that, or demands are such that I cannot finish at a particular time but especially after dinner, like going for a short walk which is quite good.

Social health?  Incredibly important.  Gowling is very good at arranging socials and drinks within the firm and meals out and things just so that you can network with your colleagues who perhaps do not work on maybe the same floor that you are working, or the same office, but you still have the opportunity to meet them but also outside of that you have probably got friends and family outside which we should make an effort to and spend time with and listen to.

So when you have covered those sort of three bases it is generally okay.

ED:  I agree.  I like splitting it out those three ways.  I must admit I know if things are getting too much for me because I will not want to really go anywhere.  I will not want to socialise with people and I will start to get into my head.  So you can start to recognise signs of when things are not going right and then start to do some of those things that you have said like start to socialise, start to go for a short walk at lunchtime, and importantly talk to people.

KB:  And they are related to one another as well.  You know, if you are not able to communicate the expectations or what you can manage or what your capacity is to a colleague or perhaps you are not getting out to get much exercise that is going to have an impact on your mental health.

ED:  Yes.

KB:  And if you are perhaps not feeling right, you are not going to want to socialise and health just sort of begins to deteriorate.  So it is important to keep an eye on all of those factors.  I think for any perspective lawyers listening to this in particular during your studies it is really easy to get bogged down doing your law conversion course of the LPC or even the SQEs now.  So it is important to keep those factors in mind and I think practice as you would like to go on.

ED:  Yes.  Definitely.

I wanted to ask you, I guess it sort of leads off of that question, what motivates you at work?  What makes you excited to come in every day and do this job?

KB:  Yes, so I think I mentioned this a bit earlier as well but I am very curious.  I enjoy the thrill of embracing uncertainty.  I like the fact that in the morning there is going to be a new challenge because I think when you are exposed to a level of basically feeling uncomfortable in a way, it is a sort of a growth zone.  You are going to actually learn lots and I really enjoy learning.  So I think that is what excites me in the mornings is that, I do not know what is coming in.  From what country and it will be good to actually explore this and see if I can contribute to this in some way and then when you do finish the matter or you finish some work on it, there is a sort of a sense of satisfaction that you have not only learnt something but you have been able to help somebody solve their commercial problems.

ED:  Brilliant.

And looking back, you look over your last year or so here at the firm, is there any one moment that really stands out for you?  It can be either from a client perspective or just something else that has happened at the firm?  Is there anything that you look back on and go, oh that was really good, or, and it can be a small thing.  I think somebody else had mentioned something that was quite small but was like, that was a defining moment type thing for them.

KB:  I think one thing I will never forget is when, as you mentioned earlier, law firms, high pressure, high stakes.

ED:  Yes.

KB:  So there is obviously a lot of, you could say anxiety around not making too many mistakes or not repeating mistakes and things like that.

ED:  Yes.

KB:  But once a Senior Partner just came to introduce themselves to me and they mentioned to me that, make lots of mistakes because that is where you are going to learn.

ED:  Yes.

KB:  And if you have ever made a mistake and you think it is the end of the world just remember two things.  The first thing is no one is going to remember this in 100 years.  The second thing is nobody has probably made more mistakes that I have in my career and I have not done too bad for myself.  He has put that in a really nice way.  We were new to the firm.  It made us relax and again it goes to the approachability because if you have a question or you think, oh no this is terrible, the fact is you can talk to him or the team about this has happened, what do I do?  So it was just a really nice way of sort of breaking the ice in a way.

ED:  I love that.  I really, really love that.

I am asking everybody this question but you might not have an answer to this yet, but looking forward what are your aspirations for the rest of your career?  Do you have a plan?

KB:  I think I am open to, there is not sort of a plan laid out as such, I am just keeping an open mind and enjoying the training contract.  I think given that I am in my third seat now I will have to start deciding soon.  So it is something that I will have to think more about.  But I have had such a positive experiences in all my seats so far and the teams are all fantastic which makes the job even trickier to think okay, well how do I distinguish one from the other but I think I will be more comfortable making that decision after about six months or within the next six months to a year I will have to decide anyway.

ED:  Then finally.  My last question for you today is what is the best thing that has happened to you this week?  It can be anything.  Small.  Large.  Whatever.  What is the best thing that has happened to you?

KB:  The best thing that has probably happened to me this week is that I have produced a research note on a very technical topic which was received really well by the Associates and Partners that I am working with and some of the Barristers were are working with and it just felt really good to be able to use my technical skillset to break down quite a complex topic to help further case and that was probably my highlight for the week.

ED:  Lovely.  So a massive thank you.  Thank you so much for taking some time out of, I know how busy you all are so I really appreciate you talking to me today.

KB:  Not at all.  Thank you.