The Space: elevating early talent - episode six - Grace Kemp

Emma Dennis:  So welcome to series 2 of The Space where we break down barriers and perceptions about a career in law by talking to the talented people of Gowling WLG.  This series is all about early talent and we get to dive under the surface and understand that diverse experiences and perspectives of our people.

Today I am delighted to be here with Grace Kemp, an Associate in our Birmingham office to hear more about her journey into law.

Hello Grace.  Thank you for being here today.

Grace Kemp:  Hi Emma, an absolute pleasure to be here.

Emma:  So you joined the firm, and feel free to correct me if I am got any of my research wrong, you joined the firm as a Paralegal in 2020

Grace:  Yes correct.

Emma:  and then started your training contract in 2022,

Grace:  Yes.

Emma:  and then, excitingly, qualified earlier this year.

Grace:  Yes.

Emma:  I remember talking to you, I think on the day that you qualified at one of our events.

Grace:  It was yes.

Emma:  It was an exciting moment.  What is it like six months or so on from that?

Grace:  Do you know what, it has been a big learning curve.  I am still completely clueless as to what I am doing.  Probably should not admit that on this but, yes it has been really, really great.  I think it has been a big step up.  Everyone always says the difference between Trainee and becoming an Associate, that is quite a big step up there and I can confirm they are not wrong, but it is really, really great.  Absolutely loving the team.  Loving the work.  So yes it has been fantastic.

Emma:  Brilliant.  You studied human geography at Cardiff University.  What made you go on to complete your GDL and pursue a career in law?

Grace:  Yes, so I think I always knew I wanted to go into law.  I think I am very fortunate in that it was something that I always thought, that is what I am going to do, and we are very fortunate in law that you do not have to do law from the get go.  You can have different backgrounds before you come to it.  So I did something that I absolutely loved and truthfully I had a geography teacher during my sixth form.  She was absolutely fantastic.  Really enthusiastic and I thought, I quite like geography.  I will give it a go and funnily enough I actually went to Cardiff to see if I wanted to do law as my under-grad.  My train got delayed coming back from Cardiff and my mom said, ah there is a geography talk over there.  Do you want to just go and have a little listen in?  And that is kind of where the real interest in human geography and thinking I can do that as my under-grad first came about really.  So we went to go and listen to it and I thought, oh sounds quite good.

So yes I think especially with law, I think you get a bit of an advantage I think if you have got a different background and you stand out in those application processes and you have different things you can talk about and different interests and I think that is the great thing about having a different background to law.

So, yes it was always something I wanted to do and very fortunately you can come to it after you have done your initial studies.

Emma:  This may be a stupid question but what is human geography?

Grace:  A very good question.  After three years I still do not have a succinct answer.  It is very much about looking at the relationship between humans and the physical environment.  So, quite a lot of my, especially towards the end of my degree where you can specialise and do your dissertation etc., I looked at the impact of access to clean water in Tanzania.  So we did a month's research project and we got to go out there for some time as well.  So yes it is interesting because it kind of links to what I do now in an odd way.  So yes, it is a funny one but I absolutely loved it.

Emma:  Fascinating.  What was your past qualification like.  I mentioned earlier you did your GDL, what then?  What happened after that?

Grace:  Yes, so I did my GDL and then I did my LPC.  So I think that has been superseded now by I think the SQE?  So, I think the GDL was the hardest of the two purely because it was so technical in the legal aspect and I did that at the University of Law here in Birmingham and so it was very much this is black letter law, this is what you have to know, this is the fundamentals which was great.  Then the LPC just builds on that very much so it is more how you actually put what you learnt into practice and a bit more of what you do day to day as a lawyer.  I do think I do less reading of actual law than anticipated.  There is a lot more to the job than just reading legislation and things like that.  So yes it was good.  Difficult but I am glad I did it the way I did it.

Emma:  Yes and did you experience any challenges in terms of getting a training contract?

Grace:  I think it is very difficult to say because I was reflecting on it before I came on the podcast and I think it took me two years to get a training contract.  So, I did not get my training contract until it was the summer before, not after my LPC, but it was before I got my results for the LPC but I did not have it through the entirety of doing to the LPC or the GDL.  So I think the most challenging part of it was for those two years that I was applying.  I think I applied in my third year of University.  I did not have a clue what I was doing.  The applications were obviously all rejected because I was not tailoring them and I did not really know what they needed to see from the application process.  In hindsight I think I was applying for the wrong firms.

Emma:  Yes.

Grace:  I also think when you are applying you can either do the individual side of law, so the family law, conveyancing, wills and probate that kind of thing or you can do commercial.  There are very few firms that merge the two together.  So I think when I was applying I was not 100% sure of what type of law I wanted so I kind of had a scattergun approach and I thought I will just apply for anywhere.  If they do something that I am kind of interested in I will give it a go and I think having had all those rejections, which as frustrating as it was a the time, I think it made me realise well that approach is not necessarily going to serve me too well.

So it was then refining that and what did I want and how did I decide on the firms that I wanted to, because I think one of the best pieces of advice my mom ever gave me was yes they are interviewing you, but you are also trying to figure out if they are the right firm for you.

Emma:  Yes.

Grace:  As soon as I started the application process with Gowling, everything just made sense and you are not just a candidate you are an individual who has value to add to the firm and it is about seeing what that is and how they can bring that to life and how they can support you.  So I think it is difficult when you are applying for training contracts and it can be very overwhelming but I think eventually you find what works for you and I think do not be afraid of what makes you different in those application processes.  The number of application that the recruiters get is ridiculously high so you need something that they can go, oh that sparks my interest.  I would love to hear a bit more about what they have to say about certain things.

So yes it was a long two years but I think once I figured out what I wanted to get from my training contract and the type of thing I wanted to do, and like you said earlier I was a Paralegal so although I applied as an external candidate for the training contract, I subsequently got a Paralegal role.  So I think that helped because I was in the commercial environment.  I kind of knew what the firm was about so although you are not interviewed on your technical ability.  You are not interviewed on well give me five facts about Gowling when you go through these processes, but it gave me a bit more of a flavour of what people were like at the firm.  What sort of skills you need to use and highlight that you have got transferable skills and things like that.

So I think it is a long process but it is not that you are the only one that has to wait or have to face a number of failures.  Everyone is in the same boat really and there is very few lucky people who do kind of hit the nail on the head first time round but that certainly was not me.

Emma:  Can you remember, did you do a vacation scheme and everything?

Grace:  Yes.

Emma:  Because those can be quite scary for people to come along.  I have been involved in some of the assessment centres for the vacation scheme and the training contracts.  Any advice or guidance you could give anybody that is going to be applying this year to firms and has that potential experience looming?

Grace:  Yes.  So I think my vacation scheme was actually during Covid.  So it was slightly different and I mean I joined the firm in Covid.  I did not physically meet anyone for the first six or so months of being at the firm just because everyone was in lockdown.  My experience is probably slightly different to the usual and what people will have going forward.

In think in terms of advice for vacation schemes is think about what they are actually looking for.  When you are particularly a lawyer you are not working solo.  You are part of the team.  Communication is key.  Being able to work with the people around and yes highlight what you are good at but also bringing other people up around you.  So, in the team that I am in at the moment we have got so many fantastic people that I work with on a day to day basis but we have all got different strengths and if you are able to highlight that you can communicate, understand people, read people, get to know what they are good at and think okay so they are good at, I do not know – technically drafting or something, that kind of thing, then what can I do that is going to compliment that?  That is part of my school base as well.

So I think when you are doing the vacation schemes it is very easy to think that person over there is better than me.  Or they have a different approach, that must be a better approach than the one I have got.  Do not.  Stick to your guns and just think that we do not want carbon copies of the same person over and over again.  Especially here.  We want a diverse workforce.  We want people who have got interesting things to say.

So when you are preparing for the vacation scheme, which is always key, I think it is about finding out who you are going to be speaking to when you are doing those vacation schemes.  I think if you are able to say, during your interview process for example, and you are able to have a bit more of a casual conversation before the, not technical ability, I cannot remember what …

Emma:  Building that rapport.

Grace:  Yes building that rapport.  Just sort of saying, oh I saw you were involved in an interesting article or you have reposted this.  Tell me about how you got involved in that kind of area of work, or something and then when they are looking at how people have performed and stuff they go, oh yes I had a really good conversation with them about so and so and I think if you are able to have that approach to your being in the vacation scheme assessment centre.

I think that is the best thing from my personal perspective and that I found when I stopped trying to be what I thought they wanted me to be and actually I was just myself.  That is when I started getting success in these application processes.  I appreciate it is very annoying when people do say that because you are like, yes well I just want to get the training contract.  But I think if you are able to really focus on what you are good at.  Being aware of what you sometimes struggle with, yes absolutely.  You have to have that in the back of your mind but really showcase what you are good at.  I think if you are able to do that during the vacation scheme you put yourself in the best possible stead. 

Emma:  Yes.  It is really good advice.  I think from the ones that I have been involved with on the other side of assessing, you want to see the real people and what they bring.  It is not about the loudest person in the room because often, if someone is being too dominating your thoughts are, they are not going to play well in a team and that is too much.  You want the people who are working together to solve a problem, showing that teamwork and showing the best of their authentic selves.  We want people to bring everything that they can and we know that people have different skills and that is what we are after.

So talking about training contracts, you started yours during Covid.  So a bit of a strange start to it but then eventually back into the office and back to more of a normal experience.  What was your overall experience of your training contract?  Do you look back on it fondly?

Grace:  Do you know what, it was tough because you move every six months which is a great opportunity but as soon as you start finding your feet, you are like come on you have got to go to the next seat.  But it was absolutely fantastic.

I think I originally thought right, when you can select which seats and preferences you might have during your training contract and you see the list, I want to do that one, that one, that one.  I do not want to do that one and that one and that one and I think that was my first mistake on the training contract was to go in closed minded and think I only want to do this type of training contract because I had previous had experience in real estate so I kind of wanted my training contract to be different things to just real estate and I knew I was not necessarily a litigator but I did both a real estate seat and obviously you have to do a litigation seat.  I absolutely loved both and I think being closed minded I was wrong to think I cannot learn anything from those but actually I think I learnt the most during my commercial litigation seat in terms of how to technically be a better lawyer because once you have seen it on the flip side of the mistakes, well not necessarily the mistakes, but how what you do day to day has a direct impact of if something does go wrong later on down the line, how can I try and think about that as an issue now, to sort of factor that in as much as possible.

I think also from a professional level I think you learn all those technical abilities but you also learn a lot of soft skills.  I think I have matured massively over that two year period.  I know how to work with different people and I think also it has been fantastic because of the cohort I have actually made some really genuine friends that when things do get a bit tough, you can go and chat with them and you have made real close friends that I think I am going to have for the rest of time really, or the rest of my life but yes.

So I think in terms of the training contract, it was fantastic and I think it is great that you get to have such a wide range of opportunities.  I think also from my personal experience, we are very much encouraged to not just to the desk work of being a Trainee.  There is so much more and I am sure we will come on to other stuff in a bit more detail later but it is very much about having two years where you can develop your skills in quite a safe environment.  I think when you are Trainee you have that badge of being a Trainee so you have that ability to really probe and figure things out.  Ask loads of questions.  Make mistakes and then learn from them.

I think also one thing that is not necessarily, it was not a technical ability that I learnt but during the two years I then, note taking and things like that because when you are at University you take revision notes and then you hold on to those until you have your exam and then you throw them away and think I hope I never see those again but actually when you are working you are dealing with so many different things, different types of contracts that all have different things you need to consider.  If you have different clients, they all have different things that they want to achieve and I think one of the things I really learnt, which sounds a bit odd, but is how to capture that so I can note what I have learnt.  So when I come across a certain type of contract again, I am not starting from scratch, I am starting from I made these notes and things like that and because I have worked with so many different teams I have picked up what I think worked from other people during that time.

I also think one of the great things about doing your training contract is, like I said, you are moving every six months.  So now, the firm is huge on cross-selling and because I have had that experience, I know people in real estate that I can go and talk to.  I know people in commercial litigation that I can talk to.  So there is so much to learn from it and I think it is very much about, it is easy to think I obviously need to be reaching your billable target hours etc.  But I think flip it slightly and look at it from, how can I become a better lawyer so when I do start as an Associate I have got the best leverage, the best platform.  You know it is two years to ask as many silly questions as you like.  Although I am still there, still living by that advice I think because it is only six months in.

Emma:  Always ask questions.  I think never stop asking silly questions.

Grace:  Exactly because you cannot be the only one.

Emma:  No, and often it will be that most of the people in the room have got the exact same question, but nobody is being brave enough to ask it so always ask the silly questions.  The re-sector focus law firm as well and I know that trainees here now have a sector focus during their training contract.  What was that like for you?  Was that of benefit?

Grace:  Yeah, absolutely I think it very much lends itself to doing different types of work so you do it for a year so it spans over two seats so I did the infrastructure sector and then I moved onto the aerospace and defence sector so two quite different things but fantastic for learning how things fit together.  I think that is the biggest thing I learned from doing the sector work because when you are in a seat, you will potentially be doing a small part like a transaction or you know you are dealing with just a very small part of a contract for example and I think being ale to do the sector work meant that I could see particularly in the infrastructure sector kind of what construction are doing, what our projects team are doing, what the financing team are potentially doing in relation to that and seeing how it all fits together gives you a much more holistic picture of now when I am doing not sector work I have got that broader awareness and again it has meant that I have met really interesting people, especially with the aerospace and defence sector, I have done a lot of extra-curricular type things so a lot of networking, a lot of going to events, going to some dinners, meeting really, really interesting people that I never would have done had I not been in that sector simply because you know when you are a trainee, you have, you are involved in a lot of different things but I think the sector's part of what we do means that you have got an opportunity to do more of the other type of work that is not…

Emma:  Dividend sets you up for the rest of your career doesn't it?

Grace:  Yeah.  So you know now there is I have been involved with, I'm still now involved with the AAD sector and I have carried that on post-qualification and it is just fantastic hearing about what clients are doing, what is coming up, it means you are much more commercially aware so yeah, it is fantastic and I would really encourage people to get involved with it, I think the work ebbs and flows in terms of what comes through the sector work based on how busy you are and that is fine, don't stress about oh I haven't you know done this amount of sector work yet.  It is more about the quality as opposed to the quantity of what you do and I think if you sort of just go with it a little bit you know sometimes you will be really busy with work so you can't pick up the extra stuff that you know when you do have that opportunity so yes to as many things as possible but I think there have been multiple things that I have now subsequently got involved with because of someone I met through say the AAD sector or the infrastructure sector but I wouldn't have got involved with otherwise so yeah it is a fantastic opportunity.

Emma:  Brilliant.  We are going to take a short break now and then when we are back, we will find out more about Grace's experiences at the firm. 

So welcome back to part 2.  So, Grace we are going to kick off with some quickfire questions to get to know you a little bit better.  So, let's start with a few random ones.  What was your first job?

Grace:  I worked in a pub as a waitress.  It was short lived but yeah.

Emma:  What is your favourite animal?

Grace:  Oh, controversially I am going to say cat including small cats and big cats.

Emma:  See everybody i've noticed in this podcast when I say favourite animal a lot of people go for either a car or a dog which maybe is another question further along so if you did not pick a cat or a dog what would your favourite animal be.

Grace:  I think it would be a giraffe or something.  Yeah, they are quite goofy, and I quite like them.

Emma:  Is your bed made right now?

Grace:  Always.

Emma:  God another person….and what time do you usually wake up in the morning?

Grace:  About six.

Emma:  Favourite movie?

Grace:  Ooh do you know what this came up the other week at our team social, and I am either going to, if I can have two.

Emma:  You can.

Grace:  I think I would either go for something like The Holiday which is very wholesome, a very easy watch or one of the Bourne films, I don't know if you have every watched those with Matt Damon.

Emma:  I like those.

Grace:  But they are quite good.

Emma:  Yeah.  I think you could have those as a group.

Grace:  Yeah, a bit of a collective.

Emma:  What is your dream holiday destination?

Grace:  Italy.

Emma:  Nice.  Anywhere particular?

Grace:  No somewhere with good pasta and sun really.

Emma:  Yeah.  What is your hidden talent?

Grace:  I'm exposed here now, aren't I?  Got no talents, what is my hidden talent?  I used to swim competitively.

Emma:  Really?

Grace:  Yeah, which a lot of people now I never get in a pool so a lot of people think can you even swim but, yeah I used to swim competitively as a child well up until about 16.

Emma:  Wow.  What is your go to karaoke song?

Grace:  This came up in the team social and I get exposed because everyone was saying things and I was sort of nodding and they go you don't know what songs we are talking about and I said no I'm sorry.  I think I would go for something like a classic Mama Mia ABBA type that really gets everyone else involved to hide the fact that I can't sing.

Emma:  Except everyone else was a giving you.  What is your favourite biscuit and why?

Grace:  chocolate digestive because you can't go wrong with it.

Emma:  You can't.

Emma:  i've never been offered a chocolate digestive and thought no I don't fancy that. 

Grace:  That is a really good point actually.

Emma:  And they are always good and never had a bad one.  What is your favourite season?

Grace:  Ooh it is going to have to be summer.

Emma:  Yeah.

Grace:  I think because I just love warm evenings you know once you have finished the day, the sun is still there, it is still a little bit warm.

Emma:  In the garden.

Grace:  Yeah.

Emma:  Glass of wine.

Grace:  Go for a little walk, Aperol. 

Emma:  You are making me miss summer.  Are you a Swifty?

Grace:  No.

Emma:  Nobody is a Swifty in this firm.

Grace:  I'm not against but it is not there.

Emma:  Nobody is a Swifty.  We had one person I think who was like um but nobody is so I can't ask you my follow up question which would have been what's your favourite era?

Grace:  I wouldn't have a clue.

Emma:  No idea.  A couple more quickfire ones.  I know the answer to this one, cats or dogs?

Grace:  It is going to be cats.

Emma:  Cats.  Are you more of an introvert or an extravert?

Grace:  I'd say introvert. 

Emma:  A night out or a night in?

Grace:  Night in. 

Emma:  Pineapple on pizza yes or no?

Grace:  Yes. 

Emma:  Good.  Night owl or early bird?

Grace:  I would say more often night owl than an early bird.

Emma:  You look slightly unsure.

Grace:  It is one of those ones where people say if I had to get up and do work first thing in the morning, I'm not like overly productive but I can carry on working for quite a long time.

Emma:  I get that.

Grace:  I think so I would say night owl.

Emma:  Yeah.  Right i've got some questions for you and what I wanted to try and focus a little bit on was some of the things that you have been doing outside of the day job alongside the day job and you mentioned earlier there are lots of things you can get involved with here at the firm and last year you were part of a group that pitched your new employee network as part of our Co-Lab challenge.  Can you tell me a little bit more about Evolve?

Grace:  Of course, yeah great platform to sort of speak about it on so Evolve is a junior network.  We used the term junior quite loosely.  It is very much about having somewhere that people at the firm can develop those softer skills before when you get to more senior levels for example.  You kind of have to have them ready and polished to go really so it is an opportunity for both business services and sort of the legal side of the business to say what they want to learn.  You know from my perspective there are loads of things like networking is a huge one.  I mean I remember the first networking event I went to I didn't know what to say, what I could say, what I couldn't say, how to really get a conversation going that it is meaningful and I think having a safer platform where you can practice those skills, learn from people who are the best in the business who have been doing it for years I think is a really good thing to have so yeah we launched the network last year with a huge amount of support from yourself which is very much appreciated and yeah it is just growing from strength to strength.  I think as more and more people know what we are about and what they can gain from it, it is just going to go from strength to strength.

Emma:    And what was that like you said it was an idea that a group of you had put forward as part of the Co-Lab challenge and then it got through, did it get through to the Dragons Den sort of presentations?

Grace:  Yeah.

Emma:  What has that been like sort of seeing that seed of an idea now is reality?  That sort of process from all of you.

Grace:  Yeah it has been really interesting because I think maybe naively when we first started, we thought well we will get to the Dragons Den bit that would be that but you know we are off the ground running but there is so much to consider when you are doing these things and I think making sure the biggest thing for us that we have really wanted to sort of home in and focus on is how do we cater for everyone and get as many people involved and make what we have to offer accessible.  I think the Dragons Den was very, it was not my natural environment at all to stand on stage and speak to a load of people but great to get out of your comfort zone and you know the network sort of evolved from the fact that no pun intended the fact that everyone who sort of founded the idea had all come from the projects and infrastructure or now ETIP team.  I have done various time there or worked in the team and we obviously knew each other from that opportunity but there are so many other people in the firm and we thought well I don't know a lot of the other more juniors, associates, paralegals, apprentices all the way up to senior associate.  I don't know them and we have got a lot of opportunity to meet people in your team which is fantastic and you know you quickly find out that you have a lot of people you call on from other teams frequently depending on the type of work you are involved in but out side of that there is a whole other firm there that I just hadn't interacted with and we hadn't interacted with so you know it was very much about finding how can we make a platform that will just enhance the experience for more junior individuals in the firm and I think also having that bridging gap between the business services and legal services because there are loads of things that I'm probably hugely inefficiently doing because I don't know who to ask the relevant questions to or things like that but then likewise if people don't from business services don't know what we are doing then we ask them a question they maybe don't have as much insight into what we are actually trying to achieve so it is has been a learning curve but it has been fantastic.  You know the people that we have got in the committee are so committed to making this a success and it has been great to do stuff that is not just the day job you know we get to think about what events we want to have, how we are going to put them on, what is going sort of be the topic, what is going to be involved in that and that actually is really fun to do and it is very refreshing to not just be doing the legal side of stuff.

Emma:  It has been really good to see the network grow over this year and I think what has been lovely to see as well is Emma Pioli, our chair is one of the board sponsors for the network and you align so much with what she is trying to do with collaboration across teams, across the firm and you can already see that Evolve is starting to bring people together to make that easier.

Grace:  Absolutely.

Emma:  So, it has been a joy to watch the network grow.  Are there other things like that you have been able to get involved with hat are outside of the day job…?

Grace:  Yeah, so obviously this podcast is a big one.  You know I did not think when I sort of started at the firm did I think I would be doing a podcast no.  There are loads of other things that you can get involved with, a lot of DNI initiatives.  You there are a lot of committees that you can sit on for example there is Planet Plus which I sort of only ended up getting to be involved with it due to the sector work we spoke about earlier so I helped out with that and like I said you get to meet really interesting people and there is all sorts of different things you can do you know there is a lot of from my more junior perspective, you can really get involved with a lot of you know writing articles which that gets your name out there, that gets you to work collaboratively with other people so there is a whole range of different things that you can really get involved with but I think the Envolve network is definitely at the tops of the list of things that I have got involved with whilst being in the firm.

Emma:  Brilliant and what motivate you at work, what keeps you going every day?

Grace:  I think it has to be the people with.

Emma:  Yeah.

Grace:  when inevitably things do a little bit stressful, it is the people that, I mean there have been times where there have been a lot of late nights and i'll be on Teams call and be working away but you can still have a bit of a laugh and make those stressful situations less stressful.  I think that is the key thing for me but also the clients because I think when I think one of the reasons I and did not initially try and apply for say commercial firms because I thought I wanted to go into something completely different I thought I don't want to do that because you don't get the interaction with people.  I was so wrong.  I think now that I have been working here for a number of years it is the clients that we also get to speak with and deal with and some of them have got really fascinating innovative ideas of what they are trying to develop and what they want to do with their businesses and yes we are a bit of an add on like being legal advisor but you can and we are for a lot of our clients integral parts of their team and sometimes our job  supporting them is say project management as opposed to just doing the legal bit of work and I think I love working with a range of different people, having load so different you know no one day well sorry no two days are the same and I think that is where keeps you going and you never know what is going to pop up in your email box anyway.

Emma:  No and if you look back over your time with the firm so far is there one moment that really sticks out for you either from a client perspective all that stuff outside of the client work is there something that you are like wow I can't believe I was involved in that or it might even be a small thing but it is just something that meant something to you.

Grace:  Yeah I think there has been, I remember we were doing, we were assisting with am M&E transaction and I remember after the transaction finished, we got an email from someone on the board of the company that we were assisting with and they called out a number of people but included me in that list of thank you very much for your hard work and I think when you know when those deals are done and our input it finished it is very easy to think oh there is obviously nothing else going on behind closed doors but there will be a huge amount of stuff still going on and for that client to have thought no I want to send an email just to show my appreciation, I think it is small moments like that don't happen everyday but when they do you think yeah, all that hard work has paid off and it is appreciated.  I think that would probably, those small little things.

Emma:  I suppose things happen that get to you.  You mentioned earlier about sort of being a lawyer there are no two ways about it, it is a busy job, I tis a busy life.  How do you balance the demands of your job and then other commitments that you have outside of work?

Grace:  Yeah I think it is trial and error, sometimes I don't get it quite right and sometimes you do and I think it is very much what you want to get from it you know I think I mentioned earlier sometimes work can be really busy and you just kind of have to accept it and give it your all and then equally  have that boundary in your mind and try not to overstep it.  I think it is about communication if I am too busy, it is very easy to think i've got to say yes to everything that comes across my desk and I have done that in the past and it was beneficial for me, it certainly wasn't beneficial for the work that I was doing because maybe I couldn't have given it my all or I ended up being ridiculously stressed or because I haven't give tis my all and i've still got x, y and z on my to do list but I think it is about having that communication because yes you do work hard and you know there are stresses to the job but the people that we are working with fully accept that you are a human being and the other say I said oh I'm logging off at this time, I was going to a Pilates class, oh yeah don't worry about it, we will pick this up in the morning whereas if I hadn't said that I could be interpreting that as it needed to be done ASAP.

 Emma:  Yeah.

Grace:  And it didn't so OK i'll go and enjoy myself go to my Pilates class instead so it is about having communication one but also having those boundaries and also having when you say I'm not working pas this time or I can't make that because i've got other commitments, I think i've learned if I have things to fill those times with I am more likely to be far more productive during the day because I have got a cut off.

Emma:  Because you've got to do something.

Grace:  Whereas if I think you know what i'll just you know what I will just pick that up later i'll sort it out of I will pick up on another day or like the weekend o something, but if you have got a deadline then you are much more likely to be efficient so I think it is trial and error.

Emma:  And I think that is the same for everybody isn't it, it is like something you will be extra busy with work stuff, sometimes there will be lots going on outside of work that takes your focus away and it is that.  I think you hit the nail on the head with its communicating about those things because that is the key to it, if you don't tell people what is going on.

Grace:  Yeah exactly.  They can't see what's going on so you can't think well they are putting a ridiculous amount of stress on me but it is a two way thing definitely.

Emma:  Definitely.  Looking forward, what are your aspirations for the rest of your career Grace?

Grace:  Oh big question.

Emma:  It is a big one isn't it?  Big question. 

Grace:  Do you know what, at the moment I think I have been so caught up in just trying to get to the end of the days at the moment because there is so much to learn and I vividly remember someone on my first day as an associate it is going to be the toughest year of your life and I was like yeah sure but I think because I kind of had that I know it is going to be hard I was kind of ready to, I was ready for it, I knew it was going to be difficult so I think at the moment just getting through this first year is number one on the priority list but I think you know there is so many different exciting things going on I mean with the team that I am in at the moment, we have recently formed the ETIP so we have now merged with our project finance side of the team and I think that is going to be really exciting to see what new opportunities that brings in and I think you know there is going to be a lot of different things coming my way over the years and it is just kind of take it as it comes really, but you know one day hopefully i'll be a successful partner.  I'll let you know how that goes.

Emma:  i'll keep watching.  Ill keep watching and I will definitely see that happen.  You mentioned a piece of advice earlier that your mum had given you because one of my questions was going to be can you think of advice that has really stuck with you and helped you so far in your career, would you go back to what your mum had said or is there anything because that was quite specific to your training contract.  Is there anything else that has really stuck with you?

Grace:  I think from my perspective, I think it is really easy to, I mentioned it earlier when we were speaking about assessment centres but focussing on what your weaknesses I think are obviously the way  I hac done that is wrong or I could have approached that better or something like that and I remember speaking to one of the partners in the team about sort of how to deal with that and it is almost like you just need to think OK yeah that is a bit of a weakness but how can I improve it, what can, little things, what can I do that makes it a bit better and I think it is small incremental changes you can make and not allowing that thought of someone else could do my job better to be completely encompassing because I am where I am because I have worked hard.

Emma:  Yeah.

Grace:  but I have also got an incredible team around me that allow me to make errors and mistakes but as long as you learn from them, that is the best thing you can do.  The only bad mistake as they say us making the same mistake twice.

Emma:  Exactly.

Grace:  SO I think yeah I think my mum's advice was great for when you are looking for something new or you are interviewing for vacation schemes and training contracts for sure, but I think just don't focus on what your weaknesses are , think about what you can bring to the team and that will be different from everyone and that is the best thing about working in a team.

Emma:  Brilliant and then my last question for you today and this can be work related or just personal life, what is the best thing that has happened to you this week?

Grace:  Ooh.

Emma:  Anything.

Grace:  Do you know what, I have to say my favourite Pilates teacher has come back and yeah he just does fantastic classes so I think that absolute highlight Wednesday morning did my Pilates class.

Emma:  your favourite teacher.

Grace:  Yeah, he has just got the best playlists.  You walk in and you think I really can't be bothered with this today and then you walk out and you think I'm really glad I did that.  A good 45 minutes well spent so yeah I would say that.

Emma:  It is a good one.

Grace:  Yeah.

Emma:  It is a good one.  A huge thank you for taking some time out your day to come and talk to me today.  It has been brilliant to talk to you Grace.

Grace:  It has been fantastic thanks so much Emma.

Emma:  No problem and we will be back next week to get to know more talented people here at Gowling WLG so thank you for listening, have a wonderful week and see you soon.