The Space: Mental health and wellbeing - episode one

Emma Dennis: Welcome to Series three of The Space podcast, the place where we dive into the stories, voices and ideas shaping a more inclusive workplace at Gowling WLG. I'm your host Emma Dennis and this time around we're focusing on disability, mental health and wellbeing. Across five episodes in this series, we'll explore everything from neurodiversity to sight loss, hearing loss and mental health with each conversation offering something unique. We've got an incredible line-up of guests who are sharing their personal experiences – not just to raise awareness but to help others feel seen, supported and inspired. So, whether you're tuning in for the first time, or you're joining us from the start – thanks for being here.

Today's episode is a little different from usual. I am joined by Sally Glarvey, head of DE&I and Wellbeing at Gowling WLG and also my manager. This time we are flipping the script. Sally will be interviewing me about my experience with ADHD, and I will be asking her about her perspective as a manager supporting neurodivergent team members. With growing awareness around neurodiversity and more people seeking formal diagnosis there is often a gap in understanding between employees and their managers and yet managers play a critical role in shaping the success and wellbeing of people like me in the workplace. So, in this episode we will explore ADHD from both sides, what is it like to live and work with it and what it means to lead with empathy and inclusion. So let us dive in. So, Sally thank you so much for being here today. Did you want to introduce yourself?

Sally Glarvey: I will indeed and thank you very much for having me today. So, I am Sally Glarvey, head of DE&I and Wellbeing here at Gowling WLG and I have been with the organisation for now just over two years. o, I am going to start by asking you some questions first about your experience, so I am really looking forward to getting stuck in. So, when did you first learn that you actually had ADHD.

Emma: I feel like that is a hard one to answer. Officially on 28 May last year was when I got my diagnosis in inattentive type ADHD, so not the stereotype that is out there of hyperactivity that you see everywhere, much more of an internal feeling of lack. So that was when it was official. I would say when I started to have an inkling that I might have it was back in early 2023 when I did a neurodiversity awareness session for our business development department and as part of that started to research and research all the different types of neurodivergence and every time I got to ADHD I was like, oh that looks familiar, that feels like it is a little bit like me. So that research really prompted me to then go and see my GP. So, I say my GP for the first time in April 2023 and got referred by a right to choose for a diagnosis and then it took just over a year to get to that point.

Sally: Wow. So, looking back, can you now see traits of ADHD throughout your life?

Emma: I can, I struggle with early, being a child, because I feel like I have not got very many memories of being a child. I always worked hard at school, I always got good marks in exams and tests and things, so nobody picked up on anything outside of me. I always had a feeling that I was different, and I did not fit in, and I could never quite understand why or just always feeling a little bit on the outside of things. I think in terms of I guess the things that played out now looking back that I can see are definitely ADHD motivation issues. Homework was last minute. I could do amazing stuff at the last minute. If I had a week to do something it would be the night before or sometimes the morning of to do it. Same with exams, revision was the night before or the morning of the exam. I just could not start things. A huge amount of impulsivity [both laugh] over the years. It probably showed itself most in shopping and buying things and being impulsive in that way. I have had overeating issues throughout my life, and I look back on that now and I think that was definitely a byproduct of my ADHD and seeking dopamine. There is actually quite a lot of stuff. Hobbies, I am a serial hobbyist so I constantly pick up hobbies by absolutely everything there is that you could not want to make or do that thing and fads and get bored. So, I have done card making, scrapbooking, jewellery making, furniture upcycling, I thought that was going to be my future, calligraphy, I did a make‑up artist course. I have literally done everything, so I do a lot, hobbies are my thing. And then I guess on the probably a more negative side I have had depression and anxiety, bouts of that which I actually looking back think were undiagnosed ADHD coping with that. Emotional dysregulation so my emotion, I feel like I am better now at managing them but definitely looking back I can go from sort nought to hundred over something tiny. Yeah, so lots of things.

Sally: So obviously that is probably not an exhaustive list there and I can already, I recognise a lot of those traits in you but what made you decide to pursue a formal diagnosis do you think.

Emma: I think it was to quieten the self‑doubt in my head. I managed for however many years without knowing I had or thinking I had ADHD. It did not really make a difference if I had a diagnosis or not because of what I had learned but I had a voice in my head going, you are making this up, this is not real you are just making it all up and I needed to quieten that because I think I would have doubted myself forever if I had not quietened that. And actually having the official diagnosis has let me look back on things and be kinder to myself so maybe decisions that I have made that, so why did I do that, well that was stupid or how did you get into this position, I can try and rationalise a bit more now and feel like because somebody has confirmed my suspicions it just feels yeah, it works.

Sally: Yeah, I can imagine. So, you got your diagnosis which was last year as you say and how do you think that has really affected your work and your wellbeing importantly?

Emma: It is a good question. Ah, work I think it has helped me really focus on the things that I am good at and the things that I struggle with and actually with the things that I struggle with not just thing God why am I useless at this or what is wrong with me, thinking actually can I delegate that to somebody else or can I put a strategy in place to help me do the things that maybe I do not want to do, want to avoid. I think workwise as well I am trying really hard to frame it as a strength. I think there is really great skills that come with having ADHD and I know we will probably talk about that a little bit more later but just framing it in that way really helps. But just being as well, just being realistic that it is not a superpower to me, I know there are lots of people that will refer to ADHD as their superpower and everyone has their own feelings about that. I do not see it in that way because there are some really great things I can do, and I am sure my ADHD helps me with that but also there are some really big challenges, and it is hard sometimes to live with those challenges.

Sally: Yeah, and then from a wellbeing perspective.

Emma: I think broadly around wellbeing, my sleep is not great, my brain likes to wake up at bedtime and think about maybe one conversation where I think I could have said something differently or why did I say it in that way or every thought and normally a soundtrack at the same time of a song goes through my head at bedtime. Constant head noise, that is a tricky one, a million things running through my head, lots of different things. From a wellbeing perspective the sensory challenges can be hard as well, noise can be an issue, too much noise, too quiet. It is like Goldilocks and the three bears, not too much, not too quiet, need it just right. Some noises can really set me on edge, the noise of people eating something crunchy, I honestly cannot explain the rage [Sally laughs] that I have, it is a really, it is like certain noises and repetitive noises there is like a rage.

Sally: Best make a note of that.

Emma: Yeah [laughs].

Sally: That can be really head.

Emma: And then from a social aspect it can be very hard to maintain friendships. Luckily my best friend has ADHD.

Sally: Ah, ok.

Emma: So, we can go ages without messaging each other or talking.

Sally: You knew that before or …

Emma: Oh, we have both come to realise. We think that is why we are best friends, but we just did not know, that was the reason. But we can go ages and not really see each other or talk to each other and then it is fine and then we come back together, and it is all absolutely fine, but I have had friendships break down because it is a really rude thing, but it is really out of sight out of mind. If I do not see people or they do not connect with me, or something does not remind me of them it sometimes is like I just forget people exist. That sounds awful doesn't its [laugh].

Sally: It is understandable, I can relate. It is understandable, I can relate. So actually, just probably moving on then from there, what are the strengths that you think it has brought to the role.

Emma: There are definite strengths, hyperfocus when you hook on to it is amazing. So, if I am hyper focused on something I could just dive in for hours and get so much done. There are loads of good things. I think pattern recognition, seeing patterns either in data or behaviours and recognising things and then hopefully getting hyper focused on what is going on here and that curiosity. I think creativity is probably my favourite one.

Sally: Definitely.

Emma: I love creativity, thinking up ideas, creating visually stunning things. That is what brings me real joy. As well as things like innovation, trying to think of new ways to do things, I think that I love to look at things and go, how can we do this differently, how can we make it better.

Sally: Yeah.

Emma: I do like problem solving and I think that is a skill. I feel in a crisis, it is somebody's else's crisis, not my own …

Sally: Yeah.

Emma: … that is when I am like calm as I could be and just get it done. And I think empathy as well is one. I think I pick up on the energy of people and the energy of rooms, like the vibe of things which can be quite useful. So, there are loads of really good traits that, as long as I can actually harness them in the right way, can be really beneficial. You may say something different.

Sally: I think I do agree with most of what you have just said and actually I think that there is a ying and yang in our relationship and I think that certainly helps with some of my traits. What challenges do you face on a day-to-day basis.

Emma: Again, there are quite a few different challenges. Getting started on things is a big issue. Actually I was looking back through some journals, because I journal quite a lot, at things I had written and the biggest thing that comes up is me berating myself, when I am going like why can I not just get started, I have got stuff to do, I now what I need to do, why can I not just get started, what is wrong with me.

Sally: A motivation almost.

Emma: Yeah, it is just that getting going and mostly that is probably mostly with stuff that is brain heavy work or where there are lots of bits to it, that when the executive disfunction plays out, there are too many bits for me to think about, so I really have to simplify things to get through.

I think that emotional regulation can be tough day to day so frustration, feeling that frustrations or anything quite hard, big imposter syndrome at times. So, I have had moments, and this only happens every so often, but I sometimes have moments of just unexplainably thinking everybody hates me. I can come in to work and nobody has even spoken to me, or nobody is even in yet that day and I am like, everybody hates me.

Sally: We have experienced this.

Emma: We have, I remember, everybody hates me, nobody has done anything to me, but everybody hates me, and it just sets me off on a weird path, but I find actually talking about that helps rather than just keeping it in. And I guess masking is one of the things. I have obviously done it for years and not realised and trying to be, particularly over the last couple of years of learning more, trying to break down the masking that I do but I know I still do it and I know I can turn it on and I can be on when inside I feel like I am just falling apart a little bit. It can be tiring, I can probably, when I am at home I can let go a little bit more and when I am in the office I am trying my hardest to just be me but there is still that element of masking which I suppose, most people, you behave slightly differently in work than you do at home.

Sally: I think as a team we have always tried to make sure that people bring their whole selves to work and their true selves to work but it does not always work like that does it. It is not always going to be easy to do, especially in this circumstance. Do you think there is anything about the perception of ADHD that really frustrates you?There must be some thoughts.

Emma: I think when I first got my diagnosis I was really happy, really really happy, and then it was like a lot of emotions over the course of one week and then I got really angry because I think one of the things is the feeling that people now are judging what I am capable of because I have got the diagnosis and I got really upset thinking people might start to see me differently or judge what I can do differently just based on that and so I think it frustrates me, I have not heard anything like that here at Gowling, but sometimes you see things externally of like people being judged on what they are capable of because of it. The only other thing is when you hear ADHD is a trend, everyone has got a bit of ADHD, I think that frustrates me because women have been historically underdiagnosed anyway and there are a lot of people in my age bracket that now are learning more and getting a diagnosis, and I do not see it as trendy …

Sally: No.

Emma: … to suddenly have this. Like I say, it is great on one side, it is really really frustrating and hard on the other side and we do all, all the things I experience probably everybody in some respects has gone, oh I do that sometimes or I do that sometimes and I think it is the level of how it impacts on your life.

So, Sally let us flip it about because I am really interested to hear your perspective on some questions I have for you. What have you learned from managing someone with ADHD, especially as you have seen that full journey from my initial suspicions through to diagnosis and afterwards?

Sally: Yeah, so I think managing someone with ADHD has been a really eye‑opening experience actually for me in my leadership career, I think this is the first, so it is certainly not something that I have experienced before and having been on the journey with you from those initial concerns to the formal diagnosis it has definitely taught me the importance of curiosity, your curiosity and mine, compassion and flexibility and I know that early on I learned that what might appear as you are pre‑occupied or could be disorganised which is not how you are but just that is one of the things that, actually it is not necessarily a sign of that, it is a sign of a cognitive style and I think that has been a real eye‑opener for me and certainly something that has deepened my understanding of how it works.

I think as the head of DE&I I thought I would understand what was required to support you. I think it was to understand the complexities involved and this experience really has actually provided me with more insight than anything else. And in turn I think that that knowledge has really benefitted the role that we play in the organisation and also enabled us to share those learnings with other people. And it did remind me that inclusion is not just about policies.

Emma: Yeah. It is all about learning, both at the same time, I feel we have both been definitely on a journey.

Sally: Yeah

Emma: How do you approach supporting me in our working relationship do you think?

Sally: A number of ways I think though it is a really good question. I think firstly ensuring that we keep talking so trust for us I think is really essential and once that diagnosis was confirmed and I remember it well I think it opened up a space for us to have more honest conversations and that I think in turn has tailored into some form of support mechanism. Secondly, I think understanding how you work best and creating that space for you to flourish. You talked earlier on about your creativity, and I really do like to harness that creativity for me and I try to check in I think I do not just want to make sure that you are doing your job properly, I want to make sure that you are ok and whether you are feeling confident.

And I do also, and I was listening to what you were just saying earlier on, I do really make sure that I make a conscious effort to listen without judging.

Emma: Yeah, that judging thing is, I think that is critical, because it would be my worst nightmare to think I had missed out on things because people did not think I was capable and yeah and that does with everything that we do in DE&I, it is like it is trying not to put your own limits on what people can do. Do you think that being neurodivergent yourself, having dyslexia, helps you relate or lead differently?

Sally: Yes because this is not something that I have actually come to terms with really myself so it massively influences how I lead and to begin with it gives me a deeper empathy for the invisible challenges that people have got, face and how we deal with those and I know what it is like to need alternative ways of processing information because that is one of my issues or expressing ideas and that definitely helps me create environments where other people can see that they can be supported. I do not think it is just about the understanding of it. I think it is about actively designing the way that we work to support one another.

Emma: Where do you think managers might unintentionally get it wrong when supporting neurodivergent team members?

Sally: I think that one of the most common ways that they unintentionally get it wrong is assuming that fairness means that you need to treat everybody the same and that is not right. We talk about equity in our role and reality equity means recognising and responding to individuals in their own way, so I think that is one of the first things that managers just do not get right, one size does not fit all, and so having a rigid approach to communications and deadlines and performance actually is not right. We need to make sure that we do not exclude people from that process and that we manage everything differently, so I think that is certainly something that we need to keep our eye on. And the other thing that I observe is mistaking silence for being ok and bizarrely we have actually had this conversation today. Not all neurodivergent colleagues actually speak up, they will say that they are fine, but they are not necessarily fine and actually that is something that we should not just assume because someone says they are ok, they are.

Emma: Yeah. What would you say to people who worry about having someone neurodivergent in their team?It is an ongoing frustration of mine that people think neurodivergent employees will not be as good as neurotypical employees or like we said earlier make presumptions about capabilities.

Sally: So, I think to anybody who worries about this I would challenge them to say actually you need to challenge your own assumptions that you are making. Do not assume anything, until you know the situation you should not assume. Neurodivergence does not mean that you are less capable of doing anything, it is just different, and it means that you are differently wired I think more than anything else. So, if we support it then it should not be an issue. I think the frustration comes from seeing really incredible talent overlooked or underestimated simply because it does not fit into the mould of what good looks like and I think that is a real problem and that is not just, that could be anywhere. Presuming somebody will not be as good is not only inaccurate but it also actually is quite harmful, and it is harmful. I think it can be an opportunity and instead we should be asking what we need to do differently to unlock that potential in every single individual rather than just assuming that everybody is the same because they are not, everyone is different. And that is that inclusive leadership definitely looks like.

Emma: So that wraps up Part 1. We are going to take a short break and when we are back, we will share more reflections and advice based on our experiences.

Emma: Welcome back to Part 2. It is a bit strange today because Sally is going to ask me the quick-fire questions and I cannot lie I have been looking forward to answering these for God knows how many episodes of this podcast now. So, Sally, I am in your hands.

Sally: Ok so over to me then. So let us start. So, what is the most used app on your phone, and I will be taking notes of some of these I think definitely TikTok.

Emma: TikTok for everything. Want to know how to do something TikTok. What to spend hours mindlessly scrolling weird things TikTok.

[both laughing]

Sally: Love it. If you could instantly master one skill, what would that skill be?

Emma: Carpentry.

Sally: Ok.

Emma: That is weird isn't it.

Sally: A little.

Emma: I would love to have like a workshop and make things out of wood, that is a really weird one to pick but that would be my skill. If I could just go and like knock up a chair and a table and things.

Sally: It is doable, it is doable.

Emma: Yeah, I will add that to my list of hobbies then I will have my whole workshop, and I will go, no I do not want to do this anymore.

Sally: Is your bed made right now?

Emma: This is my favourite question to ask other people.

Sally: I hope that you are going to answer it correctly.

Emma: My bed is not made right now. However, my bed used to never be made after I got out of it. However, since moving house my bed now is probably 99% of the time made when I get up apart from the days when I come into the office and leave the house very early when I have no motivation to make it. So, because I am in the office today my bed is not made.

Sally: Ok, ok. I am not sure about how I feel about that answer, but I will get over that one. What is your dream holiday destination.

Emma: It probably is Bali. I could live in Bali, in the centre of Bali away from the touristy bits and just be happy.

Sally: Best sandwich.

Emma: Egg mayonnaise on white bread.

Sally: Favourite smell.

Emma: A blown-out match.

Sally: Controversial question for me here but pineapple on pizza?

Emma: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Sally: Absolutely not for me but there you go. It is wrong in so many ways.

So next is the "this" or "that" questions. So first one, sweet or savoury?

Emma: Savoury.

Sally: Text or call.

Emma: Text.

Sally: Sunshine or snow.

Emma: Sunshine.

Sally: Now are you more an introvert or an extravert?

Emma: I feel like I am right bang in the middle of it depending on how I feel that day.

Sally: Music or silence when working.

Emma: Music, music gets me going. Music helps me focus.

Sally: And that is the end of "this" or "that" questions. Thank you very much.

Emma: Right so let us carry on our conversation. I thought we could maybe reflect a little bit on our working relationship, and I am conscious I tell you everything. We have very open conversations. How do you think that has helped our working relationship?

Sally: I think it has been immeasurably valuable. I think that we started off in that way and I think we have carried on and it has already formed that foundation in terms of our relationship. I think our open conversations have been valuable and that is because they formed the base of how we worked moving forward. Being able to share everything those challenges, ideas, thoughts, we bounce off each other all the time and even uncertainties I think is critical in any kind of relationship, working one even more so because at least I know where you are and I can understand when you come in on a day how you are feeling, what you are thinking, how we will work together on that so I think it has really helped just make it better in terms of choices, in terms of the way we work together, we stay aligned and we do stay aligned

I think that we are really honest about how we are feeling on that day and if things are not good, we tell each other and we share our frustrations, and I genuinely believe that openness has strengthened it.

Emma: Like you said trust is there because there is nothing, I cannot think of anything that I would not come and say to you. Even to the point that if we were working on something we were coming up with ideas I would never think, oh I cannot say that idea, I would say oh, but I am not sure about that. I would always, yeah, it is a safe space.

Sally: Yeah, I think the safe space is important.

Sally: So, from me to you then now, is there a moment that you think specifically really strengthened the connection at work.

Emma: I think you have always been supportive, you have always listened, you have always asked great questions, you are the queen of asking questions, great questions. And then I think you have given me the opportunity to shine as well in things that I enjoy and that I know that I am good at and you have always supported me in making sure that I have got access to the things that I need and pointing me in the right direction.

Emma: We mentioned earlier psychological safety and inclusive cultures, why do you think that is especially important for neurodivergent employees?

Sally: It is just a critical part for a neurodivergent employee because they create the conditions that make people feel safe, to be themselves and we talked about bringing your full self to work and I think it is very important because it is the basis again for trust and the creativity and the performance so those are really kind of important pieces and I think for many individuals the workplace can feel a little bit like a constant negotiation where you are having to mask your behaviours which is what I was saying earlier on, managing the sensory overload, worrying about the fact that you are misunderstood and I think that without psychological safety those pressures can absolutely lead to burnout, to disengagement which I really do not want or silence and the silence is no good to anybody. So, I think that that culture needs to be nurtured to make sure that people feel confident to be able to speak up.

Emma: Definitely.

Emma: What advice would you give to managers supporting neurodivergent employees?

Sally: So, I think to start with it is being more curious and not just assuming. So, take away the assumption and actually look at what is going on. I think that as head of DE&I I will say this and I would say it but to be proactive about inclusion, to make sure that we include people. Do not just wait for somebody to disclose that they have a diagnosis or if they have got issues. Create that culture that enables them to be more open I think and that is what we are trying to do at Gowling. We are definitely trying to encourage the understanding and more inclusive behaviours. I think educating yourself. I know for me I needed to be more educated. So understanding neurodivergence whether it is ADHD, whether it is autism, whether it is dyslexia or any of the others, this really helps to teach you empathy, teaches you how to understand with confidence what you are supporting and it also helps you to spot when someone actually might be struggling or respond in the right way and be confident about how we do respond.

Sally: So, what advice would you give neurodivergent employees around advocating for their needs.

Emma: I would say ask for help. Talk to somebody whether that is your manager or whether that is the HR team, but I would say realise as well that can put you in a really vulnerable position. It takes a lot and I know from my experience it takes a lot to actually ask for help because you are generally admitting the things that you are not very good at which seems really weird in a work situation because you are going I need help because I have got ADHD or I think I might have ADHD and these are all the things I struggle with and unfortunately a lot of the stuff to get support through diagnosis through the NHS focuses on the things you struggle with rather than the things that you are really good at. So, it can put you in a really vulnerable position. It's a bit of a two-parter for both managers and HR teams as well if somebody comes to talk to you just realise how much that takes out of them to go, I have got a problem, I am not great at these things and need help. I think understand what your challenges are, really take time to sit back and go actually what are the things that I struggle with, have I already got things in place that I do to mitigate those in which case I can communicate them to my manager and go, ok I really struggle with this but this is what helps me, this is what I need. And ask for that, ask for those things. For people that are maybe going through the diagnosis process or are starting to learn more, I think that sometimes the expectation that you will already know, you will know the solution, you will know all your challenges, you will know all the solutions and actually you do not, you are learning at the some time so you do not know what is going to help you. So, I would say look at whether your workplace offers workplace assessments that can help with that and give you guidance and advice on this is the area that I am struggling with, and they suggest things that will help you.

Emma: How do you think organisations can improve in this space?

Sally: There is always room for improvement I think so try and move beyond that surface level of inclusion and the surface level of embedding neurodiversity but put it into the fabric of the organisation, trying to get people to really understand what it is all about. That starts with education. I know I just said that obviously in my previous answer but also you said the same thing, it is around education, ensuring that leaders and teams understand what neurodivergence is, how it shows up and how to support effectively and I think awareness is definitely the first step and you have just said the same thing with people asking but it has got to be followed by action. It is all very well for us to all be aware of what the situation is but without any action behind it, it is useless and pointless actually for those that are involved. I think from a governance point of view I think that policies and processes need to be designed in a way that is flexible and that from the recruitment and onboarding right through to the performance management I do not think at the moment that there is enough around neurodiversity within each of those policies and I think that we should definitely generally across the board should be looking into that as well. And then we have talked a lot today about psychological safety and that is important because it means that managers need to be trained to understand and to actively challenge any stigma because that is one of the things that, we did not talk too much about stigma, but I do think we need to focus on that as well. I think that neurodivergent employees should not ever feel that they have to mask or hide what they have, who they are and again I say it and I have said it time and time again but need to bring your whole self to work. I know it is not always possible but certainly to be encouraged, I think.

Sally: From a practical perspective then what adjustments or strategies have helped you manage your challenges?

Emma: I have done a lot of learning over the last year or so of things that help. I guess at a proper practical level I have got a chair that lets me sit in different ways. I bang on about my Pipersong chair so many times but it is a chair so I can sit cross legged with my legs to the side, I can move basically, and it works and sitting normally in a chair to do work does not work for my brain, I need to have some movement. So that has really helped. Music helps; music helps a lot to get that focus and get into the groove. Some other things that I have found that have helped me, I change the way I do my "to do list" quite regularly. I always used to think I just need this planner and that will sort my life out and nothing ever stuck for longer than a few weeks before me going, no this does not work and actually I think I need the novelty of it being done in different ways and that really helps me so now I am not beating myself up that I have got about a million planners that have got a few weeks' worth in them, like ok that is not working right now I will come back to it another time. Things looking visually appealing I like so even down to like spreadsheets, they have to look nice otherwise I am not interested. I try to plan my days and the work I am doing during the day by my energy levels through the day when I have the ability to do that so when is better in the day for me to do really brain heavy thinking work versus the easier things that I can get through with my eyes closed. It does not always work because we have all got busy diaries and I am not in complete control of my days, but I find that does help. I used to get really overwhelmed by my calendar because I have a lot of meetings as I am sure you can relate in my calendar.

Sally: Indeed, indeed I can.

Emma: I felt like I could not see the wood for the trees, so I colour code my calendar now. I mentioned earlier I email myself if I remember things I need to do. That sometimes happens, if I have a nightmare, I am trying to get to sleep, I will be like something will go in my head and I think oh my God I have got to do that and then if I email myself it is gone.

And then generally I do a lot of journaling. Like I have said I have a lot of head noise and sometimes to clear it out I do that. Yeah, and I guess the one other thing is sometimes like I have said throughout this it is the getting started that sometimes can be an issue for me. So, I will sometimes just pick something really simple or something that I know like something creative to start my day so I will be able to just get this, almost like jump starting myself in the morning. Right if I can get going on that and do that then I can keep that momentum going. So, there are lots of different things and some things work sometimes and then they stop working and then, I think it is that flexibility to realise what helps and what does not and when it might need to flip around a little bit.

Sally: Yeah.

Emma: So, I want to end our questioning on one final question for you Sally and that is what is the best thing that has happened to you this week?

Sally: I went to see my favourite all‑time Coldplay at the weekend who I love and adore more than anything and they are going to be touring again in 2027 which means that I can go back to see them so that news has absolutely been the best thing that has happened to me all week. What about you, what is the best thing that has happened to you this week.

Emma: Do you know what the best thing that happened this week is I baked two different breads at the weekend. I baked a nice loaf of bread and a focaccia as well.

Sally: Nice, nice.

Emma: And everybody ate it all.

Sally: I was going to say that you did not bring into work for us to have a little go.

Emma: Oh, I will bake one and bring one in next week.

Sally: Well, I cannot wait for that, bring that in.

Emma: I shall. Thank you. Massive thank you Sally for joining me today and sharing your perspectives and also for giving me the space to share mine.

Sally: Right, thank you very much for inviting me. It has been great and really good opportunity to have a chat.

Emma: For anyone listening who thinks they may be neurodivergent or to any managers managing neurodivergent employees our advice is to learn as much as you can and have open conversations on what helps, what does not help and what support is needed. Everyone is different so it is important to understand individual experience. We will be back soon with more conversations from the talented people across Gowling WLG. Until then thank you for listening and have a wonderful week.