Gowling WLG and JurisAsia fireside chat: Hot topics at INTA 2023

John Coldham: I think we'll get-- I think we'll get started. Thank you to those of you who have joined us. My name is John Coldham, and together with my colleague, Martha Savoy, we lead the Gowling WLG Global Trademarks Brands and Designs Practice. It's now just a couple of weeks ago until the much anticipated inter-conference starts in Singapore. And to help you with your preparation for the trip, we have brought together some of our colleagues from around the world to talk to you about the conference, and some of the key issues we anticipate being the subject to your discussions while you are in Singapore.

We'll start with an introduction to our host country, Singapore, and the current developments and opportunities we see in Southeast Asia. Widening out to our look to the broader region, we'll then explore some of the latest news and solutions working for our clients in China. One of the advantages of the inter-conference is, it allows us to look at issues that maybe don't come up every day, but that are increasing relevance to Brands lawyers.

We've picked just a couple of things to cover today so that you can be a little bit more up to date in your discussions. These are our trade secrets, and their relationship with Brands, and a topic that continues to rise up the agenda for brand owners, and that's the metaverse. Before we get started, I'd like to highlight that we've pulled together a selection of materials covering some of the topics that we'll be discussing today and more on the dedicated inter web page that we've created.

You can find this at gowlingwlg.com/inta, and it's an interactive site with lots of different things to explore, and I do encourage you to take a look. All right, let's get started. Joining me today is a cross-section of my colleagues from around the world. Monique Couture is one of Canada's leading trademark lawyers. A Gowling WLG partner in Ottawa. She manages a vibrant intellectual property advice and litigation practice, with an emphasis on trademark enforcement, anti-counterfeiting, and prosecution.

Monique protects her clients brands across a broad range of industries, you name it, she's covered it, including manufacturing, music, entertainment, and alcoholic beverages, pharmaceutical, hospitality, fashion, and retail. She also, as an amazing [INAUDIBLE] of the time, co-chairs the firm's metaverse taskforce-- easy for her to say-- and has been following this space closely over the last year-- a few years. Vivian Wei Cheng is a patent attorney at JuristAsia LLC, which is exclusively associated with Gowling WLG.

Being Singapore or Singapore registered patent agent with a technical background in biological science and clinical medicine, Vivian manages multi-jurisdictional patent drafting, and prosecution, focusing on biotech, pharmaceuticals, diagnostics, nano-materials, and so on. She also provides business focused strategic advice on intellectual property portfolio, and risk management in various fields, including AI, as well as litigation support.

Elliot Papageorgiou is Gowling WLG's Head of IP Strategy in China. He is a member of the New York Bar, and the Victorian Bar in Australia, as well as being a solicitor of the one in the middle of England and Wales. Elliott is also a registered foreign lawyer in Hong Kong with over 25 years of experience. Elliott has practiced intellectual property law across several continents. How many people can say that?-- including Oceana, Europe, and Asia. Working out of going to Gowling WLG Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Beijing offices.

Elliott advises international clients on contentious and non-contentious IP matters, with special focus on IP value growth and extraction, strategic portfolio development, and cross-border IP enforcement, and litigation in the APAC region, and of course, especially in China. Last but not least, Choon Leng Tan leads our JuristAsia's corporate practice and the office overall in Singapore, and has over 20 years of active experience in the area of complex multi-jurisdictional M&A, and corporate transactions in Southeast Asia.

He's dual qualified in Singapore, and in England and Wales, and acts as our host today in that he is leading the office where the inter-conference is going to take place. So Choon Leng, welcome to-- if I can come to you first. I'm fortunate to have visited Singapore more than once, but I'm conscious that for many people it will be their first time.

After the postponed inter in 2020, I know that from talking to IP lawyers around the world, that lots of people are really excited that they can finally make the trip, and visit your wonderful country. And what would you say at the top three things that visitors should know before they arrive for the inter-conference?

Choon Leng Tan: Well, John thanks very much. I think we're very excited to welcome our colleagues, and friends, and contacts to Singapore. But I will say this, though everybody is truly asleep, but we're all looking forward to it. But with Singapore, I suppose the key main thing that give everybody heads up on is the temperature. All hot, right? So please bring your [INAUDIBLE] jacket because it can get cold and [INAUDIBLE] it's actually [INAUDIBLE]. But please do plan your travel ahead. Please spend a little time [INAUDIBLE].

The second thing, and I worry for people. I still see people flagging cabs along the roads. I would strongly discourage it. I would encourage you to go download the transport app. So we don't have to worry anymore. [INAUDIBLE] order is this company called [INAUDIBLE] You've got others, Go-Jek and ComfortDelGro.

Look it up, you can find it online. Do download one or two of these apps, and you will be thankful that you did. The third thing is, listen I know everybody's here for business, but please make time for food as well. We don't have mountains. Don't have lakes. But we do have lots of good food from everywhere that will make you wish you had an extra day in Singapore.

John Coldham: Well, if my experience of inter is anything to go by, there's quite a lot of opportunities to sample the local fare. So we're all very much looking forward to it. And while that all sounds like a lot of fun, and hopefully there will be a lot of fun at the conference but just as I must, we've got to turn to the serious stuff. What's business sentiment like in Singapore, and if you can speak for it to the rest of the Southeast Asian region?

Choon Leng Tan: Yeah, no it's good but cautious, John. I think the underlying sentiment is strong with growth over the mid-term, and there are probably a couple of key reasons for it. The first is that, within Southeast Asia itself, there is core population of 650 million, which is about 9% of the world's population, which is good. But what's really exciting about it is the quality of that population. You've got a real demographic dividend coming up where you have more than 50% of the population in this region under the age of 30, and for the current rate is actually dropping.

So the average age is actually getting younger, not older. At the same time, you actually have a rising middle class within the region. I think there was a recent HSBC report that expects that, within the middle class itself, there would be a 5% rise per year until at least 2030, which makes the region the fastest growing middle class in the world. The third point really is that, if you look at it geographically, we are sandwiched between two larger neighbors.

China in the North, and India in the West. So between the two countries, they've got huge populations of [INAUDIBLE] which Southeast Asia benefit, and in some cases, compete with. The fourth main reason is that actually we haven't been ignored by the rest of the world. So there is still a lot of investment coming into the region from North America, from Europe, from the GCC. And we expect that to continue in the near mid-term.

John Coldham: So that's where all the young people went then. The rest of us are complaining about our aging populations. They're all in Singapore. And maybe quite rightly too.

Choon Leng Tan: --and the region too.

John Coldham: --and the region. And which sectors would you say you're seeing the strongest growth in the region then?

Choon Leng Tan: Yeah, so I mean if you look around, you've got other reports from McKinsey, from Bain and [INAUDIBLE] banks. But they seem to converge and emphasize a few sectors in particular. One of them is the consumer, where you talk about the rising population around the region. We talk about that a little earlier. But what's interesting is that the rising wealth is not just in specific [INAUDIBLE] but across the board. So you've got the usual thing of the rich getting richer, that's probably true.

But what is happening now and that's good, is that you're starting to see evidence of the opposite reversal in terms of people getting out of the poverty zone, starting to reverse already. So you find that even at the lower strata of that. Whichever strata they find themselves in, there's general growth. So that is helpful across the spectrum of consumer services. The second is on energy and renewable energy.

So there was a recent report by the International Energy Agency that estimates that Asia Energy Resources are growing about 3% a year, which I didn't think was fantastic. But that's about worth in line with the fastest growing region in the world. The third is actually in financial service. it's funny. We've had a couple of years of hyper growth around the Venture Back Financial Services Company but across the Southeast Asia region, you still have about 70% of the population that is unbanked, or underbanked.

So that in itself represents a huge opportunity for financial services companies. The fourth is in health care where there was a report by The Economist Intelligence Unit, that actually expects that within the next five years, the growth in health care in the largest two countries rather, Indonesia, Philippines, is actually higher than in the BRIC countries, which is quite amazing in itself. The fifth is actually on just general infrastructure in the region. And I think that's backed by the [INAUDIBLE].

John Coldham: Thanks. That's really interesting. Finally, government? Do you feel that the governments in the region play a key role in attracting business?

Choon Leng Tan: It's-- sorry to harp on this one, John. It's one of those yes and no answers. Yes, in the sense that point is a large project that you could imagine, but it won't pick up without government support, whether it's [INAUDIBLE] or direct. There are large populations that need [INAUDIBLE] support. And government do as much incentives as they can. But even without all those government incentives and support, what you're finding is that the private sector is finding that there are lots of opportunities.

Many companies find that opportunities worth pursuing even without government support. It becomes a very nice to have rather than a must have. So the growth in the near and medium term is looking very strong. I would encourage companies to consider investment in this period, which is a golden window of opportunity because to be fair, it's hard to know what the future will hold.

John Coldham: Absolutely, and hopefully everybody will be excited from their trip to , enter and they will report back to their respective countries around the world about what a wonderful place Singapore is to do business.

Choon Leng Tan: Thank you.

John Coldham: Choon Leng, I'd love to have to talk to you for the whole webinar, but I'm excited to say that we've got lots of things to cover. So, Elliot, I'm going to move to you now, and sort of moving our way away from Singapore itself, to the wider region. Everybody knows about the border measures in Europe, and the UK, but many clients don't seem to be aware of the fact that China customs will inspect, detain, and potentially seize products that are bound for export from China if they infringe Chinese rights.

So trademarks, designs, copyright, and patents as well. Could you take us through the prerequisites for getting customs in China to help, and how companies can maximize the effectiveness of doing so?

Elliot Papageorgiou: Yeah I mean, the great thing the customs and border measures, you'll know that John from your experience in the UK is the gift that keeps on giving. Once you record those rights, then customs basically does a lot of your IP enforcement to work for you. Now unlike customs in most countries, Chinese customs for cultural reasons, and historical reasons, and also to keep sort of cultural artifacts in China, also filters exports. And what that means is that, if you get rights in China, rather than just in the country of export, or import, I should say, it means that you can actually record those Chinese customs, and then of course, get protection.

And actually Chinese customs checks exports about as much as it checks imports. It is between 5% and 10% of the products actually get physically checked. And then they go with risk analysis, et cetera. But there are a number of prerequisites as you mentioned. In relation to trademarks, there is a little sort of nick in it. If you have international trademarks, you localize it. Which basically means you apply to the Chinese Trademark Office, the CNIPA, and you get those trademarks. You get a local exert in the Chinese language, because then it's available to customs for you to record it with customs. In relation to designs, it's really more a common sense approach.

With designs, you can again record those with customs, but of course, you would choose some designs where customs will notice your particular product, right? With trademarks it's fairly no brainer. Customs has a good memory for trademarks, and they'll get it quite easily. Of course what you try to do with trademarks as you would with designs, is to train customs. That's important. So the record will be customs, is one element. Then training customs, giving them the so-called risk analysis, So when they should be looking, when there should be alerting the rights holder.

And last but not least, throughout this they need to be making sure that you support customs if something is detected. And last but not least in relation to patents and utility models, like in any other jurisdictions, to use those with customs, it really must be very targeted. So effectively, you know who the supplier is. You know the route through customs. You know which customs substation, and you actually do, not an ex-officio, but a targeted customs attention. That's the only way that is going to work with patents utility models. But again, this is something you can do to stop these products from entering the international trade.

John Coldham: Thank you, Elliot. And perhaps infamous issue in China, and I must add, in other parts of the world as well of course, is where trademark pirates steal your trademark and register it before you. It's an age old problem in most parts of the world, particularly people talk about it happening in China. Does this mean that if that happens to you, or anybody listening, that it's game over for manufacturing your products in China then?

Elliot Papageorgiou: Well, I don't mind admitting that given the volume of trademark applications. I think last year was a lull at something around 8 million new trademark applications. And to put that into context, right? The EUIPO had 2 million in 25 years. So I don't mind admitting that China has its fair share of bad faith registrations. Now it doesn't actually mean that it's game over. I mean in fact, China is well aware of this problem. One of the issues is that at the Trademark Office, no examiner is willing to declare a trademark as being bad faith, to be honest. But again, China has done a lot to try and overcome that.

Chinese individuals, as in natural persons, can't register trademarks. Only Chinese companies can. Foreign individuals can, of course. On top of that, they've tightened the ability of agents to just willy-nilly register trademarks. You must file empowering documents whenever you now file a trademark application. Then bringing in and making more powerful the duty of good faith in registering trademarks, and of course penalizing bad faith applications. And then I think last but not least, also penalizing the agencies.

There have been agencies throughout this period in China that have basically made money out of registering. I think the famous case is Xenia, where one agency has filed 2000 trademarks, incorporating different elements of the Xenia brand. So these sort of things, China has really taken some measures against that. Now, of course, there are remedies as well, even if you have no registration in China, as long as you have a certain level of reputation, nowadays you can actually file civil litigation to try and get your trademark back.

So this is again something that the Trademark Office is stepping up, recognizing also, of course, that a lot of people in China may not know some international brands. So it's still a work in progress.

John Coldham: I see, and I have to say that I have experienced this on behalf of clients, where your colleagues in China have helped get trademarks back into the rightful owners hands. And actually, it works very well but inevitably, as it would anywhere in the world, processes like that can take some time. So we've talked about how products you've made in China might get caught at the border if you don't own the trademark for it, but I know that from experience actually, because you've helped clients of mine with this in the past.

There's a so-called OEM safe harbor, which can help clients-- companies to continue to manufacture in China for export. Could you maybe just explain very briefly how it works.

Elliot Papageorgiou: Yes, so the OEM safe harbor was the China Trademark Offices. And this is all no part of the CNIPA, but let's call the China Trademark Office section. It's attempt to square the circle, right? On the one hand, you want to make sure that you recognize registered rights. On the other hand, you want China to remain an attractive origin for OEM, right? And it was a huge risk with a number of bad faith trademarks for products that were never produced in China for China, but produced in China for export that wouldn't no longer come to China for production.

And the government had sort of put some pressure on the Trademark Office, and the Trademark Office has said, well, in 2014, we have decided that certain types of use is not actionable or infringing use. And that is if you're not actually using it in China, and we'll define as not using in China if it's purely for export. So from that you derive at the moment what the principles are. One of the requirements is, of course, that it's really for export only. So don't misunderstand me. If there's a re-import through Taobao or these different portals. If it's not official re-import, hey, that doesn't matter.

But the manufacturing in China must be for export. That's also underlined by the fact that the licensing for it, you know, your license to manufacture, the license agreement which you should have in place, which should also say, license for manufacturing for export only, right? Now it must also be a case that the rights holder, or ideally the party receiving the products internationally, should have a trademark in the receiving country. So in other words, you should have for, taking example, one of your clients. They have a UK trademark. Fantastic.

We then go back and we register that. And actually, that requirement will show customs we're producing for that client for export. Then I think the other thing that we strongly recommend is finding out, through which customs is going to be exported, to alert that custom and to start conditioning them and say, by the way, you're aware of this particular OEM exception, and you should abide by it. And we can also give some advice on which customs not to use.

Because there are some customs in China, which are more, if I can use an Aussie term, 'more dodgy' than others. And last but not least, the same thing with the enforcement authorities. You approached them, you tell them this is purely for export, it's a legitimate export of these products, and the way, watch out, there's a bad faith registrant.

John Coldham: Perfect. And if you don't have the relevant IP rights, I appreciate what you just talked about how we might be able to work around that a little bit, but let's say you're in a circumstance where infringers have cleverly worked around your IP, such as it is. To what extent do you-- do other methods of enforcement that we see elsewhere in the world work in China? I'm thinking here about the selection of things from unfair competition, consumer protection, and comparative advertising for environmental standards. You tell me, what other tactics have you used in the past to work around where you don't have the IP in place?

Elliot Papageorgiou: I can see your work fill is very closely, and not a surprise. You're exactly right. These are the sort of options that you've mentioned that we've be looking at. Unfair competition law, maybe for some of us coming from a common law jurisdiction, less known, but certainly China having a civil law based system for its IP law, very much embraces unfair competition. If you have reputation, if there is a risk of consumer confusion, and you have some unique features, bang. You try for unfair competition law even if you don't have a registered trademark.

In relation to consumer protection laws and standards, again, sometimes you have to look for what type of appearance is there. Are consumers being misled? And then you look at one of China's copious consumer protection laws, and you will often find something. You'll also find something in relation to laudatory statements. Often, the websites will have something like, original, approved, the only. Those sort of things we can also then use to try and take action against it notwithstanding of not having IP rights.

And last but not least, China's comparative advertising law is-- in fact, the advertising law in general in comparative advertising specifically, is really quite strong. I mean, anything that's laudatory, any of the standards, for example, if there's a claim that says saves 10% on fuel because they've basically copied something from some international product. Great. We look into that. As soon as they fall foul, well then in China, there are regulatory authorities who have reasons beyond IP to take action against those products.

John Coldham: Great, and thank you. Now finally we're coming on to this little bit later with Vivian of course, but it seems to me that lots of companies are neglecting trade secrets as a potentially effective method of protection in China. I don't know if you agree with that, but what tips would you have for companies about-- how to ensure that-- they make the most of this in China, if you think it's something that they should be, and presumably they do need to have the appropriate structure in place, and all the stuff you'd expect elsewhere?

Elliot Papageorgiou: Indeed. And you know this from the UK system. And before that, when we're talking about the trade secrets directive, et cetera, of the EU. Companies are required to do something in order to be able to claim trade secrets by way of protection. And the key things in China are really, should have a system in place. So two types One of them, you've got to have the legal system, you click through, everything on this laptop is owned by the company, by the firm. It'll be things such as the terms on the employment contracts, any sort of supplier agreements, non-disclosure agreements, non-disclosure, non-compete, non solicitation.

All this have to be in place. On top of that, having a good physical measure, so you show that if you've taken real attempts to protect trade secrets, for example, locks on your USBs, blocks on certain type of websites, uploading, downloading, right? Physical things such as not using pooled printers, making sure you use passes to get certain areas of the company where information-- really showing that you have a consistent system. It's not enough to have everything that's printed with the watermark confidential.

That's just a joke because sooner or later, people are going to turn around and say, well you don't really mean it. So that's the first part. And I think as far as the other part is concerned, you need to make sure in this particular situation that you have consistently applied it, and most importantly, when you see an infringement, or a breach of your system of trade secret protection, you need to take action. Because if you let it slide a few times, then as well, it shows that you're not serious about protection of trade secrets. But Vivian is going to tell you a whole lot more about that soon.

John Coldham: That's a great. Great trailer for later. Thank you, Elliot. And Thanks for all those answers. We better move on. We're going to move on to the topic of the metaverse now. And it's a pleasure to be joined by you, Monique. And we're only scratching the surface of the topic today, aren't we? But I'm sure that lots of those listening will be thinking that this is a worthy of talk in its own right. Well, if you are one of those people you are in luck because Monique recently chaired a webinar as part of our life cycle of a smart idea series, which is about to be launched on demand from our website.

We will no doubt be doing trailers which will get millions of hits. Our UK team has also recorded a primer for those of you who are very new to the metaverse, but need to know the beginner's guide before you set sail for Singapore as part of what we call, BAD, that's Brands Advertising Design's insights series on IP rights in the metaverse. That's also available from our website, and I gather it's also available wherever you get your podcasts, which is a whole revolution for me.

And Monique, thank you for joining us. You're really expert in explaining to clients why they should pay attention to this topic in the first place. I know a few people are asking themselves the question of whether they should. And I know you believe they should, and you've been advising clients on issues arising in and about the metaverse. So what have you been seeing and helping our clients with?

Monique Couture: Well, Thank you, John. It's a pleasure to be here. We certainly saw an evolution of the metaverse over the last year. And of course before we launch it, I should say there really isn't one metaverse. It's really remains conceptual for now rather than a single place. There are several competing platforms that people are like-- they've heard about Roblox, Fortnite, Facebook, Horizon, Decentraland, and there's some cooperation between them but no interoperability which of course, the Holy Grail.

It will be some time before we know exactly how this will shake out, what will move forward, whether it'll be one big ecosystem, or whether one or two platforms will win out. But just setting the stage for our discussion. But over the past year we really have gone from what is this, and how does it work, and should I dive in, and where is this going, and what is this good for. This is where we were at last year leading into Intel, and it's been really amazing to follow the trends over the last year.

John Coldham: And I suppose that rather begs the question making my job very easy for me. What trends have you have you observed then in the last year?

Monique Couture: Well, it's been amazing actually. We followed it weekly, and it's been amazing to look back. So at this time last year heading into Inter, there was a lot of novelty, and brands were really questioning whether or not they should enter this space. There were many concerns about the risk inherent in dabbling with NFTs such as triggering securities regulations. There were reputational concerns which is the energy it takes to create all the NFTs, and of course, much, much uncertainty surrounding enforcement.

So what's happened over the last year is, if we've seen a lot more certainty into the space, we've had the very first lawsuits decide on the NFTs are property. These lawsuits happen in Singapore, China and New Zealand. In the US we had the landmark Berkin case, where traditional trademark rights were sufficient to stop infringement in the metaverse. That was huge. And at the same time on the NFT, the crypto space there was a very chilling effect as the Securities Commission made high profile enforcement examples of some very big celebrities for endorsing crypto assets.

I think one of the most high profile ones was Kim Kardashian, paying a $1.26 million fine, and the SEC stated, the Federal Security laws are clear that any celebrity, or other individual who promotes a crypto asset, security must disclose the nature source, and amount of compensation they received in exchange for the promotion. And the investors are entitled to know whether the publicity of a security is unbiased, and Ms Kardashian failed to disclose that information.

And so these enforcement actions have definitely put a bit of a chill on that space. We're also seeing narratives emerging that the metaverse is just nothing. It's a big nothing burger. But we see that narrative, but in practice that's not what we're seeing unfold. There are various research firms that are now looking at the future. The research firm Gartner predicts that by 2026, one in every four people will spend at least one hour a day in the metaverse to either work, or study, or shop, or socialize.

And research and markets has just published its findings that the metaverse industry in the US alone is expected to grow by 44% on an annual basis to reach $51 million in 2023. That's just the US. And it's expected to be something like $375 million by 2030, only in the US. Not counting what's happening globally.

John Coldham: It's incredible, isn't it? And the whole point of this is it is global, which is actually why your taskforce covers this. It's got members from all over the world. Has an expert pooling together our experience from around the world into moving this forward as quickly as we can, because pockets of stuff are happening all over the world. But how are you seeing this growth of the metaverse unfold?

Monique Couture: You're absolutely right, John. It is global because it's virtual, therefore global. And so what I think is the most interesting thing of the last year, is that we're seeing this growth taking place really in three different sectors, depending on the goals, and the users, and the objectives. And we can divide these into what we're going to call, the consumer metaverse, the industrial metaverse, and the enterprise metaverse. So if we start with the consumer metaverse, this is I think what most people think of when they think of the metaverse.

A colorful virtual world for gaming, entertainment, shopping, and socializing. In these worlds, brands are looking to amplify their brand value, experience growth, and interact with consumers in all kinds of new ways. Examples in the sports world that include the NBA, the NHL, and golf. All venturing onto Roblox to engage with consumers in whole new ways. And some project that the consumer metaverse alone, globally will have revenues of $50 billion by 2030.

So I think that's something that people need to be aware. Of course I'm presenting from Canada, so I'll use hockey as an example. The NHL has launched a hockey themed community space to connect with fans from around the world, and this is to serve as a central metaverse hub, where fans can express their love of the sport, competing and thrilling fantastical games that they can wear any NHL jerseys that they like, and snap photos of digital avatars. Living out hockey poses featured on NHL trading cards. Of course, that resonates for Canada, maybe not for elsewhere. But if--

John Coldham: We get the idea. We understand.

Monique Couture: Where do you get the idea. It's engaging with your fans in new at different ways. But if we're moving on, so that was the consumer metaverse. If we move on to the industrial metaverse, this is an entirely different kettle of fish. So the industrial metaverse mirrors, and simulates machines, factories, buildings, cities, vehicles, and even entire traffic systems, and the beauty of this is that it enables virtual testing that conserves resources. So the promise here is the potential to allow everyone to innovate at much lower risks, and costs.

There's an absolutely fascinating report that I encourage everyone interested in this space to read, put out by MIT and Siemens. It's called the Emerging Industrial Metaverse, and I quote from it because it was just fascinating. And it says, "The industrial metaverse will help develop sustainable products, as well as more efficient and sustainable factories, buildings, and cities that will enable the democratization of engineering, allowing everyone to innovate without fearing risks or high additional costs.

By merging digital twins with their real world counterparts, companies can optimize production and processes in a continuous feedback loop. This convergence of digital and real worlds will change the way we work and collaborate, enabling real time interaction with other people and machines, just like in the real world." And so this report, this is the MIT-Siemens report, proposes that the industrial metaverse is a megatrend that can help with digitalization. That can help us meet and shape the challenges we face in doing more with fewer resources in the face of enormous political and economic change.

And so it will be fascinating to see how this enterprise-- excuse me, It's industrial metaverse will evolve, and the report projects that the industrial metaverse revenue will be something like $100 billion by 2030. So this is also not something I think that we should be ignoring. We need to be aware that this is on the horizon. That was industrial metaverse. And so turning now to the enterprise metaverse. So this is something people may be actually just innately more familiar, with but not realizing that's what it is.

We're talking about immersive virtual spaces for businesses to collaborate, including productivity tools, and virtual workspaces. Innovation-- this space includes unique ways to conduct house viewings, and work meetings. So it's not as glamorous and interesting maybe as what we've just discussed, but it's probably-- people are experiencing it more without even really realizing it. One super interesting example in Canada once more, is the Vancouver Airport has a digital twin.

A digital tool that allows for training, optimization, future planning, simulation, testing and more by visualizing data. And through the integration of sensors, and historical and real time data, it enables data driven decision making, and collaboration, which has never been available before in real time. So this would allow the airport, for example, to address a security issue promptly with corrective action, ensuring a better experience for travelers. And interestingly, although it's the Vancouver Airport digital twin, it serves as a learning ground in British Columbia, which is the province Vancouver is in to connect and collaborate with businesses and community to try to drive economic growth in BC.

So a really interesting sort of mixture. It's an airport. You wouldn't think that it would be integral to economic growth in the region, but it might well be. And so again, the Siemens report estimates the enterprise metaverse to generate revenues of about $30 billion by 2030. Again, big slices.

John Coldham: I mean, this is a lot of money to say that this is actually only 7 and 1/2 years away. This is not one of those reports that's talking about stuff that's going to be created in 50 years time. This is how the world is going to be. We're talking we're talking seven years and now in thinking about the metaverse in these sorts of sectors, I mean it's fascinating. What else, if there is anything else that-- you've covered a lot of ground already, but what else are you seeing? Anything else to do with this?

Monique Couture: Well, I mean the key thing is, to keep in mind that everything we've just talked about, I find absolutely fascinating. But there's been so much development, and like you said, John, that's seven years away. It's-- The pace of change is very rapid, but we remain in the very early stages. There's still so much that needs to be developed in terms of connectivity, interoperability between platforms integration, privacy, security, payment systems, and regulatory systems.

But even in these very early days, interesting examples abound of metaverse being used to improve the delivery of services. For example, it might surprise people to know that Interpol, the law enforcement agency, has really been engaging in this space with an increased attention to policing and privacy in the metaverse, developing a reputation of French headquarters in the metaverse, and delivering training there. And so Interpol as an entity, foresees many benefits in terms of remote work, networking, collecting and preserving even evidence from crime scenes.

And of course Singapore, and the UAE are jurisdictions that are reaching themselves to be global leaders in the metaverse and virtual asset space. And of course, no pre-inter commentary is complete without commenting on the fashion brands. They're entering the space by creating new ways of engaging with consumers, where the pedestrian realities of gravity, or the physical limits of real life are transcended in very creative matters, opening up a whole new realm where imagination is the only limit.

Virtual fashion shows, and concerts, and all kinds of things. So that's the more artsy side. Incredibly interesting as well. And we're interesting for the-- and we're seeing for the first time, physical goods which are in the metaverse with Nike's, TKFT, which is a virtual collectible company, releasing its crypto kicks in real life. So these were developed in the metaverse on the platform, and now being sold in real life. So that's a bit of a reversal that's happening as well.

So there's a lot of creative folks engaged. It's absolutely fascinating. But as a group, our group has come to the conclusion that, of course our laws globally, need to evolve to keep up with all the issues and then increasingly a digital world. Not only the metaverse, but of course, the whole online space.

John Coldham: Yes, and I suppose there's going to be a whole variety of people listening to this webinar, and following the materials that you've created generally on this space because I should add, there's lots of materials on our website about our work in the metaverse, and about metaverse [INAUDIBLE] in it. There'll be people who are in different parts of the experience of that. Some people will just be still in the why should I care, if you bring it back, explain that.

But there was some people who are thinking, right, my business wants me to do more in the metaverse, and as a legal counsel or a trademark lawyer or whatever it is, they've got to do something with this information. So what practical tips do you have for clients, and those advising them on how to engage with the metaverse?

Monique Couture: It's a daunting task due to its emerging and global nature, but clients need to be aware of the potential and the promise of pitfalls in the space. From a brand perspective, keeping in mind going into Inter, we should really keep in mind the basics of any enforcement strategy. Enforce your rights, of course, you need to own them. So keeping trademark, industrial design, copyright, trade secrets, patent portfolios up to date is an excellent first step.

And of course, in keeping with that, making sure that there are strong contractual provisions, and licensing in place around IP rights. Defense them in, especially those being exploited in metaverse platforms. But the space engages, of course, so much more than just intellectual property. One issue is the platform's terms and conditions, which limit how you can proceed and where. Jurisdictional issues are of course vital. Although we're seeing US courts and other jurisdictions willing to take jurisdiction. Data privacy is enormous. Trade secrets, terms of use, securities, taxation, agreements, commercial agreements, just to name a few. It's dynamic, fast moving, and global.

John Coldham: Thank you, Monique. A lot of you thinking about there. Excellent. Turning to you, Vivian. Last but not least. Coming back to Singapore for our final segment of this webinar. And let's talk about trade secrets. Here's what I could do a poor joke about not wanting to tell you why they're important because it's a secret, but I wouldn't dream of being that poor. Vivian, with increasingly strong trade secret laws around the world, should innovators consider keeping their smart ideas under wraps indefinitely, or do patents still afford the best protection for proprietary inventions?

Vivian Wei Cheng: Thank you, John. I would admit that some of the most valuable IP in the world are in the form of trade secrets. So as everybody knows, the classic examples, if Coca-Cola and KFC had applied for patents for the recipes, and yeah you, can patent a recipe, that would have been in the public domain for many years now. Copied widely and freely. And we'll accept that these are exceptional cases of course, but when one is use of trade secrets at a basis of protection of IP, the best way forward.

I think, in order to make a call on whether to patent invention, or keep US trade secrets, you really need to know your industry, and the technology quite well. Having that adequate knowledge will enable you to know just how likely you will be able to keep the smart idea as a trade secret. So keeping something as a trade secret means not only keeping it under wraps within your own organization, but also making sure that whatever products that is released to the market is not something that a competitor can easily reverse engineer.

So for example, formula fabrication processes or source codes, are examples of IP that are often kept as a trade secret indefinitely due to the difficulty to reverse engineer. So whatever the smart idea is, if you are able to keep it-- maintain the strict confidentiality, then you may wish to keep the smart idea as a trade secret.

And another point to consider is that, trade secret protection is preferable for those technologies that patent protection does not work, because there are many exceptions from patentability around the world, and some national laws. For example, in the AI, and machine learning field, mathematical methods such as algorithms per se are not considered to be inventions.

So for a patent application to qualify as a invention, the subject matter must relate to the application of the machine learning method to solve a specific problem in a manner that it goes beyond the underlying mathematic method itself. So for example, a mathematical machinery method itself is not patentable, but a method of using that machine learning method to control the navigation of a autonomous vehicle is indeed patentable.

And I would say in reality, a company may consider a hybrid approach for protecting innovations. For example, in the context of a pharmaceutical company who use AI related innovations to do drug screening or development, those raw data, or training data, or optimize the model parameters, for example, they are difficult to reverse engineer and they are better suited for trade secret protection, while the drug which is developed itself can be protected by patents.

So company should really carefully consider what information the scientists, or employers will publish until they decide whether to keep it as a trade secret, or seek patent protection. So this means that all kinds of measures will be needed to keep a trade secret as a trade secret.

John Coldham: Exactly. So presumably your suggestion there, Vivian, would be to get some excellent legal advice from somebody who knows. So have you got any examples of practices, or measures that people can take to protect their trade secrets?

Vivian Wei Cheng: Yeah. So companies that have valuable data should definitely ensure that they have adequate measures to protect their secrecy. I think the very important first step is to actually identify trade secrets. Because many of the companies are not really sure what data or what information are considered trade secrets.

So to approach that, I think it's important, or useful to ask questions such as, has information being kept secret, and only accessible by selected persons? Or is information already out there in the public domain? And is that information of commercial value to the business, and it is it difficult to reverse engineer that trade secret? So by asking these questions may help in a way to identify those trade secrets.

And once it's identified, then it's important to make an inventory to record, analyze, and review the trade secrets. So the inventory, in my opinion, should be a comprehensive one. It should include the trade secrets developed in-house. Those which is disclosed to third parties, and the confidentiality agreements, and those who are licensed for your use by third parties. And of course, this inventory should be updated, and reviewed regularly, say, on a monthly, or at least quarterly basis.

So once this basic measures are in, place there are various measures to protect trade secrets. As Elliot just mentioned, many people use highly confidential watermarks to make trade secrets a secret, but it is not enough. So similar measures with the notices of confidentiality to inform a reader when someone opens a confidential file, that document is confidential in nature.

There are many cybersecurity measures as well, such as password protection, encryption, antivirus protection, firewall protection for confidential information. And I would say physical protection measures, they may seem old fashioned, but they are often quite effective and necessary. So this may include storing the confidential material in a safe, or room with restricting access to authorized personnel, or prohibiting the use of cameras or external storage devices in areas containing trade secrets, and maintaining a logbook of sign in and sign out activities.

And if trade secrets are needed to be disclosed to a third party, then make sure that non-disclosure agreements, and employment contracts are properly signed and recorded. And last but not least, I think it's very important to train employees on trade secrets protection. It's very important to have a internal trade secrets policy, training the employees on the obligations of confidentiality, have the employees trained on cybersecurity protection.

For example, promptly reporting, and deleting phishing emails and suspicious links, or prohibiting the use of personal email address to send work related documents. And as for those departing employees, it's quite important to conduct exit interviews to remind them of their obligation of confidentiality after the termination of employment, and return all the trade secrets in his or her possession to the company.

These are not exhaustive list of all the measures which can be used to protect trade secrets, and I think a company has to be adaptive, and flexible in choosing what kind of measures that can best suit its own business strategy and policy.

John Coldham: No, sure. And I suppose that's a good point for me to remind everyone, including myself, because I did mention earlier that we have recorded lots of other webinars on this topic. So if you are interested in trade secrets, there is a lot of good material on our website already, and there's more to come, both in terms of webinars, but also in terms of written articles on trade secrets.

And on that note, we've actually just launched an article on why Brands lawyers should care about trade secrets, and if you're a patent lawyer by background, and it's easy, I think, for us Brands lawyers to dismiss trade secrets as being something that's for other people to worry about. But I'm afraid that's not true everybody. They are important as a part of Brands and identity as well, aren't they, Vivian? So maybe you can talk a little bit, if you can, about how a trade secret can form part of a company's branding and identity.

Vivian Wei Cheng: I totally agree with you, John, on that point. I think a brand with a secret element often attracts excitement to it due to the human nature of curiosity. So mysterious elements could be attractive force that keeps customers coming back to the same brand or same product for more. We have been discussing about KFC's secret recipe, and how are the 11 herbs and spices added to each other, what are ratios, what are the sequences of the process of making that fantastic chicken, but nobody has figured that out.

So the very fact that the things are secret, will excite people, and making people to feel like going back to this product. So all this could help to boost sales of that product. And secrets can also be used to protect a business, or a brand's goodwill. So as discussed earlier, trade secrets, due to a difficulty to reverse engineer, can somewhat prevent the competitors from designing around a brand's unique selling point.

So provided that information remains secret, a trade secret can provide lasting protection for a brand that could outlast any other kind of intellectual property rights. But there's also, of course, a risk associated with trade secrets. If a brand solely rely on trade secrets to protect its intellectual property, because it only takes one person to breach that confidentiality obligations to destroy the secrecy of trade secrets.

So as a result, I think many of the big brands they wisely choose a variety of IP protection methods, and trade secrets is only part of a wider brand protection arsenal. For example, they use patents to protect a new invention. They use copyright to protect iconic artwork, or images. They use design to protect the appearance of a product, or packaging.

They use trademarks to protect logos, slogans, and other indicators of the brand. So alongside with trade secrets, this could provide a all-round protection.

John Coldham: Perfect. So the whole point is that you must not think that trade secrets are everything, but they've got to be there in the mix somewhere, or at least you should be considering them even if you decide they're not for you Thanks Vivian, that's been brilliant. Well, thank you to all of you on my panel for taking the time to join me today. And thank you to those of you who tuned in and to those of you watching on catch up. Maybe from the plane on the way to Singapore, thank you for watching and making it to the end of the webinar.

I really do want to take this opportunity to remind you that we have lots of topics available on our website, in case there are things that you want to gin up on before the conference starts. And it's great to see so many of my colleagues around the world who have worked so hard to prepare those materials, which are very interconnected. They do cover a lot of the different issues around the world. When looking at the inter-conference more generally, it's so nice as an opportunity for everybody to just get to see each other again in person.

So many times we meet like this, don't we? We meet on video, or we meet over the phone, or even just on the email. And it's easy to forget the importance of that personal connection, and the fact that trusting people you work with around the world relies so much on that personal connection. So I should add that this year we have lawyers attending the conference from every country in which we advise clients on IP, with well over 20 of our team going to be there in person in Singapore. And I do hope that we have time to catch up with you. And if you haven't already done so, please do get in touch.

A recording of-- I should say this bit first before I say my last question for you. A recording of this webinar will be available soon, and it will accompany all of those materials that we've already put together on the web page that I mentioned earlier, which if you've forgotten it, and I've got to plug this, it's gowlingwlg.com/INTA. Obviously, there's no need for you to watch a trashy film on the plane. You can watch, or read all of those materials all the way to Singapore, like the good lawyer that you tell yourself you are, rather than watching a re-run of James Bond.

But before we go, I do feel we just need to come back around all of you just to get one final tip. So either that can be a tip if you've been Singapore before, or you live in Singapore, or something that you must see. The one thing you must do while you're in Singapore, apart from eat food, chilling. The other one is, if you haven't say, you haven't got a tip for Singapore yet, what's your tip for coping with Inter. Inter is infamously intense few days, especially for those of you who've traveled around the world. So what is your one tip coming to random. You first, Monique. What's your tip for Inter?

Monique Couture: Well, I've never been to Singapore other than the airport, so I'm looking forward to being there. So I have no Singapore tips per se, but I am an Inter veteran and my thing, and maybe it's coming from Canada, I prefer being outside. And so it seems that Singapore will not disappoint in its rooftop venues. I'm seeing from the invitations coming in, it's going to be spectacular. And so if you can be outside, on a rooftop with your Inter people, that to me, is always preferable.

John Coldham: If you can survive the humidity.

Monique Couture: Oh, I haven't-- as I said, I've never been to Singapore. So maybe that's true. Someone else might have a different view, but that's what I'm looking forward to the most. Seeing everybody again after it's been so long, and being able to talk about all these wild things that are going on together, and all these jurisdictions. It's a wonderful opportunity that we have. We're very lucky.

John Coldham: I totally agree. Vivian, what's your what's your local's tip for Singapore?

Vivian Wei Cheng: I would say bring an umbrella. Prepare for the sun storm. And if are really caught in a rain, come to our office, which is connected to the MRT. Very closely.

John Coldham: The MRT being the metro system for those who--

Vivian Wei Cheng: [INAUDIBLE] place, MRT, yeah.

John Coldham: Elliot, what's your what's your what's your tip?

Elliot Papageorgiou: I think for me, it's got to be food, and it's got to be three things. You've got to try the laksa while you're in Singapore. I think you've got to try fried kway teow, which is this wonderful noodle dish. And last but not least, you've got to try bak kut teh, which is-- some people say it's pig's trotters. It's much more than pig's trotters. So those three things, I mean Choon Leng and Vivian are locals, but I've been to Singapore so much. Those three foods you've got to try. Choon Leng?

John Coldham: You're not recommending the durian, then?

Elliot Papageorgiou: In limited consumption, yeah, for obvious reasons.

John Coldham: Don't take it on the metro. And Choon Leng, as head of our office in Singapore, tell us.

Choon Leng Tan: I'm going to disappoint on that, John. I mean, Elliot sounds like he read my list already. So I'm going to go on-- I'm going to go on the workfront and be boring. I'll say this. I think Singapore and the region, we recognize the value of intellectual property. And you'll see that there are quite a lot of funds who are willing to invest and back intellectual property protection measures. That would help you guys, it will help your client and all. If you're not sure what they are, talk to us about it.

John Coldham: That's perfect.

Elliot Papageorgiou: Sorry, John. Just one last one for Choon Leng. Singapore is an IP free port. So this is the man to ask the questions about how literally manage your IP assets, because Singapore is a great place for IP. So you know.

John Coldham: Thanks Elliot, I thank you both for bringing us back to work. You're keeping on the straight and narrow, thank you. Listen, thank you to all of you for joining, and we wish you all a very safe trip to Singapore, and we look forward to meeting you there. Bye bye.