The Language of Leadership: Episode 5 - Leading by teaching others

Ayo Akinwolere: Welcome to this episode of the Gowling WLG Language of Leadership podcast series. I'm Ayo Akinwolere. I'm a broadcaster, changemaker and World Record Swimmer and we're continuing our podcast series discussing what sports leaders can teach business about the science and art of getting the most from their teams and organisations. Working with my co-host, Charlie Unwin, a sports performance psychologist, Gowling WLG has analysed the language used by elite individuals in sport and business and developed six lessons for business leaders to take from the world of sport.

Okay, well, today, we're talking about leadership and how sports people commit to leading through teaching others and setting a good example, and to talk to us about this so grateful to be joined by World Cup winner, cricketer extraordinaire, Ebony Rainford-Brent M.B.E, you know.

Ebony Rainford-Brent: That's really cool.

Ayo: Talk to me about that.

Ebony: It's pretty cool.

Charlie Unwin: Is that the first time you've been introduced like that?

Ebony: Yeah, over so I got announced last year, it's taken a while to get it. So yes, everyone after seeing yesterday, as you know, we're recording this at the moment. But yeah, went and met the future king and Prince Charles at the moment. And then I think since then, like, I'm starting to feel it after going to the palace, you start to feel it, it's like this is a pretty awesome accolade. It was a good day. So yeah, I'm gonna revel in it for a little bit, but yeah, awesome to be introduced. And I've got a long name, so it's kind of stretched it out even further.

Ayo: It's alright, man, you're now at that level. So, allow it. It's all good in the hood. Alright now well Charlie, let's break into it because clearly, we've got a great leader here in front of us. Really good place to start. Give us a little overview of what you think this means, you know, leading through teaching others.

Charlie: Yeah, so this one is all about how leaders take responsibility for enforcing and maintaining high standards and I think it's about the shift from simply adhering to the highest standards as an individual, and actually helping other people live and breathe those standards. So that's what we're going to be talking about. I suspect we have got the perfect guest for this today.

Ayo: Well, yeah, I mean, great segue. Let's get into it, in your experience, you know, as a cricketer, I mean, now as a broadcaster as well. How important is setting the standard as a leader, but also how has the standard been set for you by previous leaders as well?

Ebony: Yeah, I think it's really interesting, so if you describe me as a personality, I have to be honest, I'm a reluctant leader naturally. So, I like a carefree life, I think I liked it as a player, I wanted to play carefree as I got older and you know, I've gotten to boards and positions of responsibility, like my default is actually to just want to be carefree, be the reluctant leader. I remember reading a book early on in my career going at some stage, you have to step up. And so, I think through my playing career, you realise there's two sides to it, there's one is for others, you have to take on responsibility, you have to do your part, what is your role responsibility, and you have to deliver for others. So, yes, you can have some carefreeness, but you have teammates and others that you're accountable to and then I think there's a part where you then actually start to get empowered, realising you can make an impact and make a change. And so therefore, you move from sort of being, or I moved from being reluctant to empowered to actually, can I make a difference in this space? Can I lead? Can I have ideas? And can I bring others on with you? So, you know, I have to be honest, you know, not everybody, you know, some people are natural born leaders. I don't think I am, but I've found myself in positions of responsibility and I found myself having to learn how to step up, and then realising how cool it is when you do, and you can see that you can make a difference.

Charlie: Did anyone help you realise that you could have that impact as a leader, or did you work it out for yourself?

Ebony: Yeah, no. Well, that one person in particular really helped me step up he's, I would argue, he's my mentor, amazing guy called Richard Thompson, who's a chairman at Surrey County Cricket Club. He's such an amazing businessman. I remember when I finished playing, and I started broadcasting, I remember he came to me and he said, you have ideas and you know, whether it's about women's sport, whether it's about how you can make change, I want you to put some ideas forward. And I was nervous, I have to be honest. He said, I would like you to send in a paper to the club with thoughts and ideas and I avoided it and about a day or two before there was a board meeting, I got an email from his PA saying Richard has said that you have ideas and we're waiting for this paper.

Ayo: He forced it.

Ebony: He forced it, so I went home, and I was oh my God, like I'm actually being forced here, and I went and wrote down, but I wrote down ideas about commercialising women's sport, how we drive all these, all the things that were in my head and when the paper came through, I think it surprised them actually the ideas and he was like, well, now we're giving you a platform to do something. And I think there was a few things. One, I think I had impostor syndrome a little bit. Two, being a woman in a man's world or thinking, does anyone want to hear my ideas? I think there's a lot of me holding myself back, but he forced me, and he said that he always wants to be around people who lead not follow. And so, he forced me to think about how we can lead. So I would say without him I mean I've been around him in the club now for maybe eight years, in particular of this and I would say he has revolutionized how I think about leading, how I think about ideas, how I think about bringing others with me, he's an incredible guy and it's forced me to think about how to grow and step into it. So, I would say genuinely, without people who sometimes spot something in you, you might not realise you have the qualities, but you can develop leadership, and then I've gone down rabbit holes of reading, speaking to people and then trying to kind of really grow through that.

Ayo: Yeah, I mean, how important is that? I mean, I love what she said there really, in terms of leaders being able to observe within their team, potentially there's an awesome nurture in that.

Charlie: Yeah, yeah, definitely and it's, it's encouraging that voice that perhaps is hidden, you know, especially if you're an introverted character, you're not naturally expressive, you know, expressive people, especially in sports, you know, they get that podium or that pedestal to be able to sort of have that voice. But you know, being, having permission, because the other thing that came out of that was bravery, right? I mean, you can have all the ideas, you can have the logic, this is what should happen but there is there is a bravery to standing up and clearly, you've had to demonstrate that bravery so far and you know, probably feel like you've still got a long way to go.

Ebony: Yeah, I also believe in, I said this with the charity that I run, I remember saying to some of the team, I also believe in speaking and I learned this bit through sport, you know, as an athlete, when someone says, what's your goals this year, you don't say, oh, I want to come fourth. You have to put it out there that we're going out to win so you know, I remember our team when I first start playing for England, many years ago, and we were actually pretty average, at that point. My first tournament, we got pumped, by, we got beaten in every game. And our captain is like, we need to sort it out. But we need to speak into existence like where we want to be, we want to be World Cup winners, we want to win the Ashes, we want to win the World T20 and it took us four years as like a team transformation, but we did it and so it kind of made me realise if you don't put it out there, what you want to do, you won't turn into that. So, this is why I talk about Apple. Apple's one of my favourite brands, they're always talking about innovation and evolution and wanting to be at the forefront, and I like the way they go about things because I think they're a company that speak into existence. So I said to our charity, when we started, let's put into the media that we want to be in six cities within a year and we just achieved that we got funding from Sport England, we got, but it's because we say to our team talk it out there because then you get held accountable to what you want to do. And then the fear actually kicks in.

Ayo: You're putting pressure on yourself.

Ebony: You're putting pressure on yourself to deliver and because you've put it out there publicly, you've only got two choices you completely back away, you know, you can't coast you have to either go out there and deliver. So, I do think is really important that with big goals, whatever your company is your organisation, your team, put it out there - it forces you to step up.

Charlie: I think there are a couple of great things to pull out from that for business leaders, because that's so salient that point, the first point, I love that term speaking to existence, I've got to confess I haven't sort of heard that before.

Ayo: Take it. Use it.

Charlie: I've written it down as well here.

Ebony: I'll take 10%25.

Charlie: But it's so true, you know, the first thing is, let's talk about this and, and again, it's probably one thing that in sports, you create the forums to talk about, or good sports leaders create the forums for that, and in business there's this constant need to keep going and the moment you've kind of finished one project you're on to the next and it's an incessant focus on what's next rather than where are we trying to go or what's happened. The second thing though, is about the specificity of the language you use, because it will be easy to speak into existence something that's kind of quite nebulous, it's kind of you know, it's not very well defined, but actually the example you gave there was really specific, I remember seeing the British Cycling charter, team charter, and it wasn't you know, things like, we will respect each other it was really specific things like you know, leave your kit on your seats, if you want it to be, you know, maintained or cleaned or something like that and much more specific in the behaviours that define the standards.

Ayo: Where do you guys lie with the idea of leading also with integrity, a purpose? And there will be difficulties, but also decisions made that a lot of people will not be happy with, you've got to believe in your pursuit of a greater good I imagine?

Ebony: Yeah, look, sport is the best place for, you're kind of on the train, or you're not and I don't think it matters on different personality types, you know, you do all your testing, and you know what personality type are you, and you know, you might all to an extent hate each other. But if there's enough of a pull of what we're trying to achieve, and we're all on the same train, and we know why we're trying to do it, and why we need to respect each other in that process, people will pull miracles out the bag, you know, people put in long shifts, they put in the time because that vision is created. And I think it's really important these days, especially in an era now, where mental health is considered and all that, that people trust that the vision you're taking them is going somewhere that is going to benefit them, sits it's in line with values. I don't think business can now, business and sport can't just cruise along and win now solely, it's not just sole performance, you need to make sure this is socially conscious, you know, how does this affect the environment? If your team is flying all over the world and not doing it sustainably there will be questions asked. If your team is not looking into making sure that other groups can get accessibility, there's gonna be questions so I think business now isn't solely performance, you have to have values and integrity that make everybody think it's worth working for you or worth being on this train. But I think those extra elements will make people put in extra. If a company, if I'm wanting to work for a company, and they say not only do we want to achieve this and turnover, blah blah blah but we also want people to come out better, we're helping mental health, we invested in charities or profits going, I'm on that train and I'm in and I'm going in hard and so I think that integrity piece is vital. I don't believe people have to get on, there's so many different paths, personality types, but everyone has to have respect and they have to really believe in that vision, that it's got valid deep values behind it.

Charlie: No one gets bored, do they talking about vision? Yeah, it's a good vision is everyone wants to talk about it. Yeah, it's really important.

Ayo: What are your thoughts on the integrity, from a leadership perspective?

Charlie: Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing that I think can differentiate sport from business, is the attitude towards leadership. So very often, in sport, leadership is a privilege. You're not there necessarily, because you've been in the job for however many years and that can happen in business a lot more, there's a rite of passage. And I think, I think, you know, businesses are trying to get that right and challenge that model but it's difficult, right? It creates politics. But in sports and in the military as well, leadership is considered a privilege. I remember at Sandhurst doing officer training that the motto there is serve to lead. The idea behind that is, you're there to serve your soldiers, they're not there to serve you and it's a constant reminder through that process of why we're leading, but the fundamental attitudes towards leading I mean, is that what you notice, and I guess that can still go wrong in sport?

Ebony: Yeah, the only thing I was thinking as you're talking as well is, you know, at any moment, you're under the pump, and your job can go in sport, which in business it still happens, you know, especially, you know, I can imagine in financial world, but it doesn't seem as short, sharp. So, I remember, I was Director of Women's Cricket in Surrey, we're on a string of five losses and going to boardroom. I was getting nervous because you don't know. I mean, luckily, our team turned around and won that year. But I think some of that in sport, you know, you look at football managers that go like I think you have to realise, like it's a very different culture, that you have to realise I have to, you know, one, it could be a short span if I don't get everybody on board, if I don't get everybody singing in a hymn sheet, if we're not putting in performances. So, I do think that cut-throat-ness of sport actually does help leaders to kind of, find that very quickly and then try and when they do make it work, you know, you look at some of the great leaders over time and some of the great coaches and Alan Ferguson, you know, when they do get it, and then they are incredible leaders for a long time. But there's a lot of leaders that, if you don't have the skill set are quickly turned over and I don't know if that that's a different in business where you have a little bit more time and you can settle in and you can then get into different ways of being.

Charlie: Yeah, it's funny because one of the leadership skills that perhaps embodies that ability to set high standards and get everyone on board is about listening, right? You mentioned Sir Alex Ferguson there because he was famous, wasn't he for telling the receptionist at Old Trafford or Manchester United you know, you play a really important part in this club because you're the first person that everyone sees when they come in and if you smile and if you create the right standards, everyone's automatically on that page as they go into the changing room, as they go into meetings. But you know, imagine what it must have felt like for that receptionist to have had that conversation with Sir Alex. It must have been incredibly empowering but it's an example, isn't it - be clear about the standards, but demonstrate everyone has their part to play everyone has.

Ebony: So, I think, so I take cricket as and this is why I mean, one of the reasons why I love cricket is how much it relates to life for me, and I think sport, business, everything. So, you take a cricket team, you take one of the greats, Sir Alistair Cook one of the best batters in the world, churned out runs. But if you were to ask him to open the bowling, there's no chance. So, in sport, you have to very quickly identify what someone's super strength is and then you have to help them max that right. Whereas I don't you know, in companies I've been in I've been in places where I've worked where no one's really actually identifying what your super, you're there to do a job but no one's gone.

Ayo: You're just a cog, you don't know what your function is?

Ebony: Exactly, but they're not going necessarily, what's your super strength? And how can I leverage that to get success because you want to win? And so, I think the example of Alex Ferguson talking to the lady at reception, is he needs to identify quickly, what is everybody's super strength? And how do I get them to max that, to get this environment on the page, and I sometimes find, you know, in business worlds there's so much to do this and there's not that time and so, you know, you take a cricket team, you need to work out 11 different super strengths, and someone who's at the top of that in world class, and that can be a horrendous fielder. And so how do we work out? Where do they field? Where do they bat? Where do they bowl? How do we get the best all-rounder? What number do they all need to bat in combination? The constant focus is super strengths and bringing the best out of people and so then that's one thing about sport that I love is that that's never lost, getting the best out every inch out of somebody and helping them empower them to want to get every inch out of themselves.

Ayo: Do you think the current England women's cricket team embodies a lot of these values, in your eyes?

Ebony: Yeah, Heather Knight, who's the leader, and the captain is an incredible leader. I started my career playing a bit with her in crossover. And I remember the first time I met her she had this natural, first of all calmness, which I think it helps in leaders don't get me wrong, we are all like different types. I am not a calm leader at all, but I remember just in her presence, you felt calm. Then even as a friend this is when early in her career, she would be teasing out of you, what are you trying to do, you know, just her natural way of being around players and so as soon as she got the job of England Captain, I knew she was a leader that could you know, she led them to 2017 World Cup, she's bought players, you know, she's made the tough decisions at times and going look I think our combinations are better if we get rid of that player, or move this around. So, she wasn't afraid to make the hard decisions but her natural way of being has helped, you know, this England team become incredible. And also manage the limelight that started to come - increase broadcast, increase awareness, money that's coming to the professionalism of the game - and I knew it, I remember when I first I would have, she would have been 18,19. I was just like, she can lead, I wanted to follow her and I was like late 20s at this stage and so I'm not surprised and I would say she's definitely a natural leader. And I think that team has embodied all the values of spreading the game, sharing the game, inspiring others, role models, taking the game forward. The women's game have had to learn to build more strength and power into the way they play. And so, you know, great leaders just make such a difference to an environment, I have to say, and I think they've done that brilliantly.

Ayo: Do you think it's been relatively beneficial for, and beneficial is probably not the word I'm looking for, do you think the current women's team have been able to I guess, learn from perhaps past mistakes of the more I guess, publicly glamorous men's team and cultures that have existed there? So, you're sort of redefining what modern day cricket should feel like, look like and taste like for audiences?

Ebony: It's such a good question. I think the number one thing I think for female cricketers, which actually is a blessing, and I felt this as well in my career is that you can get a chance to see both sides of the table, when very little interest in you guys very little interest and investment, like those parts of it and women's cricket or sport wasn't valued. And so, I think when you when you have a sense of like, what it was like, without all of that, when you get it, and people are interested in it, people are investing and people are watching I think that sort of just pure joy of like why you're here starts to translate and so I think when you watch a lot of women's sport on TV, and that's why I think it connects with family audiences. It's a very different message to you know, men sports been going for generations now it's sometimes about the money, the transfer deals of this, that and the other. But I always think you get a bit more sense of pure joy and pure passion and that like the core value sometimes when you watch women's sport, and it's kind of the things that connect us to all wanting to just be part of pureness, and so I think players in particular who have kind of gone through a few different generations are all like really grateful. Like actually that sounds like, basically they're almost honoured to be there any moment it's not just another deal and how much am I going to get paid? It's I want to be the best because this is going to make a difference for the next generation, and it keeps kind of pushing forward the narrative. So, I do feel there is that with women's sport, which is pretty special. And, you know, personally, I felt that, and I see it with a lot of sports, female sports teams as well, that joy of change and improvement and growth for the women's game.

Charlie: It's a really interesting example of that were the women's American soccer team, who've been successful for so long now.

Ayo: More successful than the men's team.

Charlie: Oh incredible, absolute incredible and what's interesting, you know, they almost started with a blank sheet of paper and said, right, this is the sport, how do we get good at this? I remember a commentator during the World Cup a number of years back, who said, it's amazing that the American team do so well, considering none of them play in Europe and I couldn't help but think actually.

Ayo: It's probably a good thing.

Charlie: It's because they don't play in Europe. That it gives you that freedom of mind and then it's less about bravery because, you know, for young businesses, you know, and for young entrepreneurs, it's much easier to take risks when you're not coming, when you're coming from a sort of low bar because even just creating a website is exciting, it's moving forward, it's a step in the right direction. The moment you've proven yourself, the moment you've got a reputation to hold on to, that's when the same level of innovation can be really scary and where leadership has to step up, I think a bit more to that.

Ebony: Not being afraid to fail, right? Is so important and when you've got a leader who says, only way we're going to grow is through, gonna go back to the tip of the technology world, where a lot of companies will say staff can take off a Friday, and work on projects of innovation and then the other four days get down to the work you've got to do. Now, that doesn't happen in a lot of companies, but you think about sport, for example, I want to be able to, you look at some of the greats, Kevin Peterson, he didn't just hit the ball up and down. He was trying to work out what areas, how can I innovate new shots, new ways of playing, new ways of taking the game forward, that now these shots that are ridiculous and so I think it's important to create space to fail, create that narrative, that that's how we grow. And like you say, I think women's sport can do that and have that license a little bit sometimes because they aren't weighed down by like you say that the historic parts, there will be a day at some stage maybe in the next 10,20 years where maybe start to try and hold on to what's been created but I think it is important that the right leaders know that you only grow by being prepared to fail as well.

Ayo: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I mean, one of the things we've spoken about a lot in various podcasts is creating a culture that allows people to find freedom in themselves. Just before we started the podcast, you talked about analogies around football and certain players playing freely on the pitch but that's because said manager said structure was going, go out and do your thing. How important is it to create that culture?

Ebony: I think it's massive. The best coaches I had as a kid, they did two things, they helped you find out the foundations of you know, how to do some basics but also within that there was time to say right now you go off and create your own. In all of our, we got six academies, that are now being set up three are running properly in London, Bristol and Birmingham and we talked to our coaches about, that we don't have a structured warmup anymore. You know, before it used to be right now you come in it's medicine balls, it's this is that and the other and actually, the first 20 minutes is for you to work out how you want to warm yourself up and then there's a board over there, where you write down what your goal that you're working on is and how you get there. And rather than us dictating, because it's easy sometimes with younger kids as well, young talent, you think do this, do that do that, and you expect them to perform. Where actually the goal is to get them to work out what is their superior, and we'll help you find it. What are the best drills for you to get yourself there? And I think it's important to create that space. There'll be times where you have to say, sorry, but you know, it's match time and we got to win it and you've got to focus, but you also have to build in space for that. And I think that's one thing that we've, I've learned through my playing journey. I think if you look at the best players as well, there'll be structured practice, and then they would go off, I learned, you know, Claire Taylor, for example, who's became, and Charlotte Edwards, it was two players who became the world's best, they churned out runs, they did it in big tournaments. After set training, they go off and do their thing, they're working out, they're trialling, testing new areas, new angles, and they're failing at them. And they would work out when am I going to now bring this into the performance environment? It's the same with the technology companies. They might be working on that project on the Friday that they've been given license to. When is that product now decent enough that I can bring it into the workspace and turn this into a real-life product? So, you got to have space to fail, and you need leaders that create that expression and that freedom to become who you are as your best.

Charlie: Are we talking here about the difference between accountability and responsibility whereby the leader has to remain accountable such that they buffer, create the space and the freedom, but you are still responsible for your job and your value, your effectiveness?

Ebony: One of my chief executives, Richard Gould at Surrey, he's moved, he's now at Bristol City Football Club, was incredible at saying, take a risk on some projects, I've got your back publicly if this goes wrong to an extent, but I'm gonna give you the responsibility to go and make this project happen. And therefore, you know, you've got, they've got your back to an extent, obviously, and then you don't want to, you know, you don't want to mess it up but that space I don't often see from leaders. And he's an incredible guy, really smart mind, he's been actually through the army, and he's done a lot of traditional military training and all that sort of stuff. He's brought that into the business world now taking it into cricket, football, but it's not often you get that space or someone saying, I've got your back as a leader, the public accountability, but you have the responsibility to take this forward. And then I think when you do have responsibility, and you know that you're backed by leader, you then step up. And so, I've taken that into everything I do, I'll say to my team, the exact same, I've got your back, but this is your job to deliver on this and you've got the flexibility to find your way and that's really important. So, you know, you take those learnings that you learn, and then you bring it into your own world of leadership to give to others.

Ayo: Yeah, so interesting, because I guess this is, this podcast is about leading by teaching others, also leading to allow others to grow.

Charlie: Yeah, yeah, teach themselves because I really like that approach around, we're not going to tell you, it's not an instructional approach, it's not performance by numbers, step by step. It's almost performance by principles. What are the principles we're going after? Because if you understand the principles, you'll kind of work it out. And again, in business, it can feel, it can be scary, it feels like it takes a bit longer, but actually, what you're doing is, you're literally developing people's brains more effectively to work it out for themselves. Because there are very few scenarios that you can kind of, that you can predict in sport are there? You know, you can talk about, you know, that sort of however many runs off the last three balls all you like, but you'll never nail the exact context that you will find yourself in so if you don't work in principles, because you've always kind of just focused on, this is what you do in this situation that's what you do in that situation. How are people's brains developed to adapt to those novel situations?

Ebony: I'll also add one more point in there, which I think good leaders are humble in the sense of, they don't necessarily think they know the right answer. I might be great at creating an environment, a culture, a system, but there might be people within that environment who know more or could actually take this further and so that empowerment is two sides. One is to help them grow, but also the others, you may actually be better placed you know, sometimes you give a team talk over and a captain might go to another player, actually, I need you to stand up and speak now, you know, I can imagine Joe Root in the room with Ben Stokes. There might be times Ben Stokes is going to step up and speak because he might be the best person at that moment. And I think good leaders are very good at making sure the team around them and the others that are leading are switched on, they are empowered, but also listening, you talk about that listening part, is listening to the ideas they have, it could be, you know, I look at some of the work I do, I don't always know the best thing. But if I've got good people around me and I'm prepared to say, you know what, I trust you and at the moment, you're more switched on than I am and I'll try and catch up but actually, my job is to create the culture, the environment and the structure. But let everything else thrive. So that other bit I think is really important is being prepared to take the ego out and let others kind of drive it.

Ayo: Is there an element as well though, as a leader going into, quote unquote, the hiring process? You're hiring people that can better your environment? And I think that's what you mean about the ego as well is that I'm hiring said person, because alright, they could probably take my job next year. Do you know what I mean, like sometimes you also get that fight back, don't you, where people don't get jobs because said leaders like, oh God, they're gonna come for me. But actually, flipping that around and thinking, do you know what this could be a real asset to the company and actually, maybe you'll get me to get a bit more out of myself.

Charlie: I've never known a leader who's really good at that, who's good at saying, you know what my job is to get you doing my job. I've never known anyone who's really good at that. They've always been successful, people want these people, so you don't have to worry about losing your job. Or even though ironically, that's kind of your…

Ayo: That's what you're doing right?

Charlie: It doesn't work like that, you're an incredibly valuable asset to the business or the organisation when you think like that.

Ebony: There's two qualities you want, I think two qualities and when I've messed it up in hires before and you realise, number one is initiative, and just being prepared to, someone who's working for you that will bring ideas, try and drive change won't just watch and see things just happening and let it kind of roll out as such. They're going to take the bull by the horns, that could be a 19-year-old coming in, it could be a 45-year-old, I don't care. And the other is being prepared to speak up. Now that one's harder because I think there are some people who don't recognise their voice. Don't recognise you know how good they are and they're a bit scared to bring their ideas forward and that's where as a leader, you might have to coax it out. But you want people who will challenge you as a leader, you know, you want, if you're about to go into a team performance, and you've got the wrong tactics, Ben Stokes or someone in the team to step up and say, this is wrong, you want, you know, one of the people on the board to say, if we do this it is going to lead to financial ruin, you need people who are prepared to speak up. So those two qualities for me are more important than actually how good you are at that moment, if you've got those two things, you'll take initiative to improve. And then the other is you'll speak up and bring the ideas forward and present, you've got to have the skill set to sell it, I guess, or persuade and so that ability to be able to communicate those ideas and put it across is so vital. So those are the two things I look for, I messed it up in the past, you know, you didn't test enough if they've got that within them, and then you end up with a bit of dead weight. And it's not great, you know, then everyone's trying to work around trying to make that person and you just got to cut your losses. But when you do have those two characteristics, it's just incredible and I think as a leader, that's what is important to look for within your team that can help drive that culture forward.

Ayo: I tell you what, goodness me, this is a lot we've covered here in a short space of time. But something we ask all our guests, Ebony, is if there's one clear takeout that we want leaders to take from this wonderful conversation about leading by teaching others, what would you say that would be?

Ebony Rainford Brent: I think there's no doubt, for me the number one thing is just the vision. Where are we going? I take it back to being a player in sport and it was sold to me that you want to be a World Cup winner, how are we going to do it, why are we going to do it, what it means. I jumped on as a player, that was, and being sold a vision, and the way it was put across and the way the culture, it got me hooked. Then as I've gone through my career since, either being in leadership positions or being around others, unless I want to be on the train, like I'm not interested. And I think when you then are able to sell the vision and you get people who are attracted, then you attract the best talent, they want to be on that, they know exactly, what you're working towards, where you're going, the differences you're trying to make. I just think you can never get away from vision because then that changes everything. If you set a really aspirational vision that excites everybody, everything else has to change to fit that. You have to have the communication to manifest those ideas, you have to have the business plan, you have to have the right team. But by setting it and setting where you're trying to get to and having the ability to flex with it but kind of knowing the trajectory, it can really make change. So, for me number one that's what either gets me on the train or what I encourage others to get on the train with.

Ayo: Ebony's talking about vision. Charlie, what do you think?

Charlie: Yeah, I'm excited.

Ayo: What's your takeout though?

Charlie: I mean there are so many takeouts and you know, go back, and listen again. I think, and I think I will be. But as a starting point, at the very least, define really clearly what the standards look like with your team, talk to them about it because if you find yourself getting frustrated that people aren't behaving to the standards that you want them to, ask a question. Have we clearly defined them and spoken about them and talked about it? Do we keep checking in with it? Because, if not, you can't be frustrated, you can't expect that from people. So, but yeah, just really clearly define what those standards are and how they present.

Ebony: And then sell the superness. Sorry, that was, that will be my second one.

Ayo: You've got so greedy. Do you know what it is, it's the MBE. Taking up space. Charlie as always, thank you very much. Ebony Rainford-Brent MBE, it's never going to get boring is it. Thank you so much.

Ebony: Thank you for having me. It's been brilliant.

Ayo: Yeah, and as always guys like and subscribe because we'd love that and also don't forget there's one more episode to go on this series of podcasts.