The Space: Mental health and wellbeing - episode five

Emma Dennis: I am your host Emma Dennis and today I am talking to Anna Fletcher, a Partner in our Employment team, who is retiring in December after an incredible 29 years with the firm.

Anna has been a trailblazer in many ways especially through her work around disability inclusion, both within our Enable network and through her personal story.

A massive welcome, Anna. Thank you so much for being here today and I have been really looking forward to having this conversation with you.

Before we dive into the topic of disability, I would really love to start by learning a bit more about your role at the firm. I just wondered if you could just tell a bit about what your current role is.

Anna Fletcher: Well currently I am a Partner, but I started my career with the firm back in 1996 at Wragge & Co, becoming a Legal Director in 2007, and then a Partner in 2023.

Emma: And what team are you in?

Anna: I am in the Employment team.

Emma: What does a day in the Employment team as a Partner look like?

Anna: Every day is a school day. We can never predict what is going to be in the inbox from day to day. We obviously do a lot of work with the corporate team, providing corporate support and also work closely with the real estate team, but in terms of general advisory work that is really about steering employers through just a raft of issues from recruitment, allegations of discrimination, grievances, exits, dealing with tribunal claims. So, I have decided I am never going to say I have seen it absolutely all because I have not. People behave in really random and strange ways, and our job is to try and help employers navigate that.

Emma: Amazing, and did you always know you wanted to be a lawyer?

Anna: Strangely enough, yes, I did. I am not quite sure why; I think I can track it back to a very old afternoon tv programme called Crown Court. And it is not that I ever wanted to be a barrister particularly, but it was really interesting and then I was particularly interested in employment law as an A-level student because my dad was made redundant and the process was managed really badly and the people who were affected were affected very badly, so it got me very interested in employment law as a topic.

Emma: And was partnership always the goal?

Anna: No, not at all. Actually I am guess I am a succession candidate, but I just loved being in the thick of it working with a whole range of amazing people across the firm, helping their clients navigate all those employment issues and really just working closely with our team just to keep people out of the tribunal and make sure the work that I do predominantly which is around advisory and contentious employment work.

Emma: I mentioned at the beginning that you have got lived experience of sight loss and I just wondered if you could share a bit of your personal journey with that?

Anna: Absolutely. I first suffered issues with my vision back in 1997 and nobody was able to give my condition a name, which was quite scary, and this was kind of really not quite pre-internet, but really early internet days, so it was very difficult to go searching in any event, which is probably a good thing and then I had a deterioration in my vision in 2004 at which point I got a diagnosis and I suffer from a condition called PIC which is a form of macular disease. Having being diagnosed I got lots of support from the firm but I really was not confident about accepting my condition, so it was not until 2016 that I actually spoke really openly about my condition to an audience of about hundred people at Deloitte, to help one of our former colleagues who was looking for folks to come and talk at an event about lived experience of disability.

Emma: Wow, that is throwing yourself in the deep end.

Anna: It was but there were lots of smiling faces and lots of people who recognised people in the firm at the time who I was talking about and people in fact who have been in the firm providing me with support all those years back in the late 1990s.

Emma: Having done through that people of time, then, of having a diagnosis and then not being hugely open about that, how did that shape your professional life and your career?

Anna: Initially it was really challenging. I struggled to read kind of normal size font if you like, so if a client presented me with a set of documents and expected me to be able to scan through them that was particularly difficult. But actually with most of the clients I work with I have always established a really good rapport so I could say to them that I would need to take things away and sometimes get them blown up or printed off in larger size font, and I never actually came across a client who expressed any concern about that at all, which started to give me a bit more confidence about just being a bit more open about the challenges.

Emma: Did you tell people within your team?

Anna: Yes, absolutely and the team were amazing. I had access to work coordinator who came in and did an assessment. I got larger screens so that I could see more easily when I was looking at documents. In fact, I think the screen that I had at the time is probably the size of the screens that we have now, but it would be fair to say I recall being the envy of the team because I had this enormous monitor to look at and everyone thought it was amazing.

Emma: Over your career, what do you think have been the biggest challenges you have faced with regards to sight loss and work?

Anna: I think probably a couple of challenges. The first is that inability to scan documents. So, it takes me longer to work my way through things. But on the other hand, I think it has almost improved my memory. I have got great memory for matter numbers actually when I am doing time recording because I can just see them visually and I have discovered that is something I think that has arisen really because I just have to use my brain in a very different way.

Emma: Do you think there is any common misconceptions about sight loss or disability in general, actually, that you wish people understood?

Anna: I think there is a real misconception about what visual impairment means. I think people assume it means that the world has gone dark and you cannot see anything at all, and obviously there are people who are blind, but in my case, it is about, I guess, distortion and blurred vision and there are lots of other conditions that manifest themselves in different ways. But the world is not dark, the world is just, in my case, a bit blurry and when it gets dark, a bit darker, then it is probably for most people, so I think that it is really important to talk to people and ask them about their experience and have the confidence to do that. Most people have coping mechanisms, and they are quite happy to talk to you about how they manage their day to day lives.

I think on disability more generally I think there are enormous stereotypes and I think that particularly with invisible disability it is really difficult I think to have the confidence to ask questions for fear of upsetting people, but for most people who have the confidence to talk about their condition, actually they welcome those conversations because it helps us all learn about how people deal with particular conditions and I think that is particularly important with some of the stats around disability to know that , I think it is, and you will correct me if I am wrong, Emma, but 83% of people acquire a disability so they are not born with their disability. So, I think if you look around a room, we are looking at four fifths of a room potentially with people who either have a disability or will develop a disability at some point, and I think we need to be really aware that it can impact anyone at any time.

Emma: Yes, I think it is that is a really interesting stat and you are right that so many disabilities are acquired over your lifetime and particularly over your working lifetime, as well, that, I think I would struggle to find anybody who did not either have a disability or know somebody who had a disability in some way or another.

Anna: Absolutely and I think that has been one of the really, I suppose from my point of view, really beneficial factor in my own experience, talking to our clients, because 20% of people who are working have a disability and again it is not about necessarily visible disability. So, I would spend a lot of time talking to clients about disability discrimination and encouraging them to be open and ask questions, provide support and not just jump to conclusions about what people cannot do, but be more focused on what people can do.

Emma: Exactly. You mentioned a moment ago around coping strategies and I just wondered what coping strategies you have in place for every day-to-day life?

Anna: Well I obviously have the kind of equipment in the sense of my big screen and I had an iPad, which I have had for many years now because back in the days of Blackberrys and in fact even now with iPhones, that was quite a challenge so I could work off the iPad much more easily then off a Blackberry. So that adaptation was helpful. I need to be really mindful about racing around too much or getting a bit stressed because that impacts my vision, so I am more likely to bump into something, so I am very easily bruised, and I do find myself bumping into things quite a lot. My spatial awareness, particularly on my left side, is poor, so I just need to be careful about slowing down.

But other than that, I suppose the only other general frustration is that I have not been able to drive for about 20 years. Getting taxis and Ubers and what have you is fine, but you have to be more organised, so I find that you have to think ahead of about where I need to be and when I need to be there and is there a train that is going to get me there, what else do I need to be thinking about and there are times where if I am meeting people if I know that I am going into a place that is maybe a bit dark, asking people to meet me outside. Things like that. Just practical things that just make things a bit easier for me.

Emma: How do you think law firms and other professional services; organisations can better support colleagues with disabilities?

Anna: Well, I think the most obvious, well I think there are two actually, obvious ways that we could do that. I think the first is just by being more open about conversations, being more inquisitive and not shying away from asking people if they need help. And then I think the other piece for me is around the benefit of a network. So obviously we have Enable here and I was involved as co-chair of Enable for a long time and in fact was part of Enable when it was first set up, which I cannot even remember how long ago that is, it is probably 15 years ago, something like that and I just think that the ability to meet as a group with the support network, the community, people with lots of different conditions, lots of different experiences, I just think that that is so important to embrace and to kind of take on board how other people experience a disability so that we can share as much as possible and as I say encourage people to have those conversations because I think people are really fearful in some cases that they will offend and actually most of the time actually that conversation is quite natural and the more we can normalise those conversations the better.

Emma: How do you think Enable has changed over the years? You mentioned that you have been involved from near the beginning and then you have led it for a number of years, and you are currently the partner sponsor for Enable. Looking back, what are you most proud of from the network?

Anna: I think when I look back I think the realisation that at the outset having the concept of a board sponsor would have really, I think, been a game changer because it certainly was and I remember our first board sponsors were Richard Bate, who retired this year, and Andrew Edgington, and between them they brought I think a massive amount of enthusiasm but also access to the board, so to be truly committed to wanting to make changes and they were both instrumental in actually making things happen in the firm.

I am not going to go into the detail about specific individuals, but really instrumental, really open to reverse mentoring and I think that really was the game changer and then as a result of that and with a variety of initiatives and with a lot of support from the D&I team, what we have been able to do is increase membership, increase coverage, I suppose of more disabilities, and that does not have to be obviously people who have a disability but people with experience of family and friends, being able to bring that into the conversation. So, I think that level of support is so different, I think we are all massively committed back in the day but actually having that board sponsorship was the pivotal moment.

Emma: Yes, I agree. I think it is really important isn't it to have that senior leadership involvement and to help remove barriers, open doors and just champion everything that we do.

Anna: Absolutely, absolutely.

Emma: I was just wondering, as you prepare to retire, what advice would you give to those that are carrying on Enable's work?

Anna: Just keep being the voice of people who perhaps do not feel that they have a voice. Keep asking for support, keep asking for people to be involved, work with the board sponsors, work with the D&I team and just carry on coming up with great ideas about how we can normalise the conversation.

Emma: Yes, good piece of advice. So, we have talked about Enable, but I know that you have also been active in disability inclusion beyond the walls of Gowling WLG and you have been involved with organisations like the Macular Society and then also Midlands Ability which the firm was one of the founding partners of. What drives your involvement in these wider initiatives?

Anna: I think that from Macular Society perspective it came about actually because of the talk that I did for Deloitte because I was trying to find images so that I could put up on screen what it is like to have Macular disease and I was put in touch with a guy who was one of the fundraisers, I think, for the Macular Society and we got into conversation and eventually over the period of time he said "do you think you might want to be a trustee, we are looking for trustees with the conditions because the board needs to have a certain number of people with a visual impairment". So I thought about it and I thought that sounds quite interesting so I hopped on a train to Andover, ill-prepared, read the trustees report in the accounts, realised some of the challenges and was able to answer very knowability some of the questions I was asked, a bit on the hoof and I spent my first three years as a trustee and was then invited to stand for another three years, so I retired back in 2023 after six years as a trustee and it was just fascinating watching what the charity was doing, obviously from a personal perspective really interested in the research that is going on and I am perhaps going to explore that further.

I have been doing work actually over the years along with the team and other people in the firm for the RNIB so I found that fascinating so who knows where that might take me. Midlands Ability again the speaking opportunity came through that forum back in 2016 I think from recollection, and they are doing great things encouraging employers to engage with people. Again, normalising the conversation, encouraging people to be supportive and running a whole series of events which I think we have access to even now.

Emma: Yeah. And what I really enjoy is the connections that you have, how they benefit everybody at the firm as well so the work you have done with RNIB you were very instrumental in us then going through the mark of being a busy but better employer so I love that you are always pushing for us to do more and be better.

Anna: And I think actually that is one of the important factors I think in your own disability journey how could you contribute in different ways. how can you raise awareness and again, , I think that is where the networks such as Enable help galvanise those conversations, help spot those opportunities and we know that from the variety of speakers that we have come in and the initiatives that we are involved with so again it is all a great way of expanding what the firm can offer. And I know from my own experience of talking to clients we have worked with clients setting up their own disability networks and that has been hugely welcomed by clients because obviously it is not the day job, but it is that bit of extra value and added value the glue of the relationship.

Emma: No, it is a really important point you make about what we can do with clients what are the opportunities have you been able to identify?

Anna: Well I remember a couple of years ago I was actually looking at a programme for the annual conference for the European Employment Lawyers Association which was due to be held in Bucharest in 2023 and I looked at the agenda and I went back and looked at other agendas from years prior to 2023 and there was nothing on disability which I was really surprised about. So, I contacted the kind of editorial board if you like suggested we cover neurodiversity and invisible disability and that was snaffled up really quickly at relatively short notice and the great opportunities there…. well, a couple I can think of.

The first is we were able to invite the head of D&I a client to come and be part of the panel and also….and my colleague Annette in our Frankfurt office who was not with the firm at the time came and spoke again as one of the panel members along with a Swedish lawyer that we work with and a Romanian professor that we delivered the session and we just got the most fabulous feedback. And actually, being able to involve the client as well as other lawyers to then be leading the way if you like and that was a great opportunity and great fun.

Emma: Yeah. I must admit part of my job that I enjoy most is when we get to work with clients on things on joint initiatives around diversity and inclusion and particularly around the disability topic.

We will take a short break now and when we are back, we will hear more from Anna on her experiences.

Welcome back to part two we are going to kick off with some quickfire questions to get to know you a bit more Anna.

So, what is the most used app on your phone?

Anna: Well at the moment it is an app called Fit On I signed up to a cancer research challenge for November which is to do 30 minutes of sweaty exercise a day and it has just got loads and loads of different exercises, strength, yoga, HIT and various different lengths so you can do something pretty short or you could do a 30 minute session so yes that is what I am using most at the moment.

Emma: What is one word your friends would use to describe you?

Anna: Kind.

Emma: I like that, I would agree with that one. What is a small thing that always makes you smile?

Anna: I think it is looking around. I listened to a podcast quite a while ago now about a month talking about gratitude and talking about just stopping and just looking around so particularly this time of year with the colours of the leaves, when I'm walking to the train station or even looking at the leaf fall walking across the cathedral square just taking in and really just enjoying the colours and the sounds of leaves crunching that makes me smile.

Emma: That makes me smile thinking about that so that is a good one. If you could instantly master one skill, what would it be?

Anna: Oh, be able to be bake sourdough.

Emma: Is your bed made right now?

Anna: Yes.

Emma: Well, done. What is your dream holiday destination?

Anna: Vietnam.

Emma: Oh, I would like to go to Vietnam. Sweet or savoury?

Anna: Savoury.

Emma: Best sandwich?

Anna: Oh, that is tricky isn't it. A good BLT.

Emma: Favourite smell?

Anna: Freshias.

Emma: Text or call?

Anna: Call.

Emma: Sunshine or snow?

Anna: Sunshine.

Emma: Are you more an introvert or extravert?

Anna: Introvert.

Emma: Pineapple on pizza yes or no?

Anna: No, absolutely not.

Emma: And music or silence while working?

Anna: Oh, now that is a 'depends' which is such a lawyer's answer isn't it. If I am feeling a bit sluggish music and if I am not silence.

Emma: I want you to have a little bit of a think now for those that are starting out their careers in law or just thinking about a career in law what advice would you give to somebody in that position who has a disability?

Anna: If you do have the confidence, ask for help. I am reminded of… it is a book called The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and The Horse where the message is essentially asking for help is the kind of strongest thing that you can do. A friend of mine bought me the book when I was recovering from shoulder surgery and I read it, and it just really resonated so ask for help it is not a sign of weakness and if you are concerned look for support from the network because there will be people that will be able to help. Look for support from HR, D&I teams. I think we are hopefully beyond the days where people are absolutely reticent about coming forward and I would really like to think that people when they do ask get the support that they need and most of the changes that people need they are really small and what we tell our clients all the time is generally not very expensive. It is little things that make all the difference.

Emma: It is. I think it can be quite a vulnerable time when you first ask for help particularly, I think when you work in a profession where it is all about perfection and getting on and you are having to talk about the things you struggle with. Can you remember back to when you first reached out for any help did you feel that like vulnerability?

Anna: Oh absolutely, but I do remember my first access to work assessment and the lady who came she came all the way from Hereford who worked at the Blind College in Hereford and we ended up talking about employee disputes such ironically because she was saying her experience because she would give evidence in tribunal from time to time was that things went wrong when people stopped talking to each other and that trust breakdown so for me that was a really useful piece of advice and I have always used that with clients ever since that keep the conversation going, it is unlikely to go badly or go badly wrong but as soon as you stop talking and as soon as you stop checking in with people and actually asking if they are okay and if there is anything else that they need then that is where things become more problematic.

Emma: Yeah, definitely. If you could change one thing about how society views disability what would that be?

Anna: I think we need to really focus on what people can do and look less at what people cannot do and I think if we could get into that mindset then I think we would just open up so much more opportunity because there is still a massive disability employment gap and there are people out there who undoubtedly are very capable but just do not get the opportunity. So, I think that it is about unlocking that talent.

Emma: Yeah, focusing on the strengths. And then finally my last question for you is what is the best thing that has happened to you over the last week it can be work related, it can be personal life, what is the best thing that has happened?

Anna: I joined a running club in January and did my couch to 5k and I go every Sunday morning when I can and I love it because I love all the people and the chats that we have as we are running round and it makes running much more fun than running on a treadmill and on Sunday we did one of the coaches he is called Geoff we did one of Geoff's specials which was we run around the town I live in which is Shrewsbury and had a bit of guided tour of unusual things. So, we were shown the plaque that is near the…. what is currently the library. It used to be Shrewsbury school where Charles Darwin was at school. We were shown various sights, and it was explained to us about the historical significance of these sights and so on and his historical runs or runs of interest or I do not know he comes up with all sorts of imaginative ideas really really interesting so you are kind of running and learning at the same time so that was brilliant.

Emma: That makes running sound much more appealing to me to have like a bit of history lesson….

Anna: It is.

Emma: ….at the same time. Thank you, Anna, so much for joining us today it has really been great to talk to you, and I just want to wish you all the best in your retirement when that arrives and make sure you stay in touch.

Anna: I will do and thanks Emma it has been a pleasure.

Emma: A huge thank you to Anna for joining us today and sharing such a powerful and personal story. Anna's legacy spanning three decades at Gowling WLG and her trailblazing work in disability inclusion will continue to shape our culture long after her retirement this December.

Thank you to everyone for listening to this series of The Space Podcast and we will be back next year with more stories from Gowling WLG.