Practical governance: Moving forward on diversity, equality and inclusion

Joanne Tibbot: Okay. So thank you everyone for joining us this morning. I am a partner in the Pensions Team at Gowling and I am going to be chairing the session today. There is just a few housekeeping notes before we begin that I just wanted to mention. We are going to be recording today's session. It will be uploaded to our website and also circulated to you via email. So if there is any colleagues that you would like to pass it on after, you are very welcome to do so.

There is a Q&A function at the bottom of your screen. We really encourage questions. We want this to be as interactive as possible and we will try to address as many questions as possible throughout the session. If we do not manage to answer all of them we will do our best to come back to you separately with answers on any queries that you have raised. And finally, the session length we put it in the diary for an hour or so. We are aiming to finish slightly earlier than that so hopefully you can go and enjoy your lunch in the sunshine outside but roughly speaking we are probably expected to be done by around quarter to one.

So in terms of what we are covering today. We are focusing on ED&I and pension schemes and I think it is an area that most of us are becoming increasingly familiar with but I still think it is an area where we could all do more and something that I have never forgotten as a junior lawyer is when I went to a trustee meeting, this is several years ago now, I was asked by one of the trustees there if I was bag carrier and note taker and it might have been said in a bit of a tongue in cheek way but it is really something that has stuck with me because I was actually there to deliver the advice, I had prepared the advice, but there was an assumption that the partner I was with would be there to fulfil that role and I think it is really heartening to see that the pensions industry has moved on a lot since then and today what we want to explore is what ED&I means in a pensions context and what trustee boards can and should be doing particularly in light of the regulators recent guidance in this area which was issued at the end of March this year.

We want to really focus on what the benefits are having in integrated approach to ED&I for schemes and most importantly, how having an approach like that can really lead to better outcomes for members. So benefiting not just the trustee board in terms of how it is operating but members more generally. And to help me tackle this really interesting topic I have got two great speakers that I would like to introduce who both are playing their part in driving this area forwards.

So firstly you can see to the side of your screen Nadeem Ladha who is a trustee director at Vadeet. So Nadeem is a really experienced trustee, twenty years of advisory experience and focusing really on strategy planning and end game implementation for schemes. Interestingly he also was the founder of Diversity and Pensions which was created back in 2019 with the aim of really promoting diversity in senior decision making roles within the Pensions Industry and really focusing on how we get that dialogue going so a really fantastic initiative.

Our second guest speaker is Vivienne Reeve, Vivienne is a fantastic colleague of mine who is a senior lawyer in our Employment and Equalities Team. So she advises on the whole employment lifecycle including investigations, complex grievances, and also has an extremely busy tribunal litigation practice. Vivienne specialises in equalities law and she is also the co-chair of Enable which is our firm's so Gowling's disability, health, wellbeing and menopause network.

So some really fantastic guests. We are going to share their practical experiences with you today.

So in terms of how the session is covered. If you could just please move to the next slide. Thank you. So I am going to cover Pensions and ED&I and having a bit of a look at where we are now, where the regulator is in its thinking and then we are going to move a Q&A discussion with Nadeem and Vivienne where we are going to answer some of the interesting questions that hopefully you have submitted to the Q&A function and also some other discussions around what it actually really means in a pensions context.

So, just turning to the next slide, please. So ED&I – What do we actually mean. So TPR in its guidance that it issued at the end of March 2023 included a definition of ED&I which I have set out on the slide and when I was reading this definition I tried to pick out what I thought were the key terms in there which I have highlighted in red on the slide and I think the real emphasis here is that we all have something different to bring and actually having a board that is made up of people with different experiences, skillsets were everyone is heard can really actually benefit the board as a whole and ultimately our scheme members.

The regulator is focusing on making sure the people with protected characteristics are protected and treated in a fair way and as some of you might be aware protected characteristics are characteristics under the Equality Act 2010 which are protected from discrimination so these include things such as age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion and belief, sex and sexual orientation. As you can see by the last words highlighted red in that definition the regulator is actually encouraging trustee boards to think a bit more widely than that and it is looking at the PLSA actual definition that it adopted in its simple guide to diversity and inclusion back in 20 and 20. So looking at the socioeconomic background of individuals and also ensuring that you have a neuro-diverse board. So really focusing on the skillset that individuals have as well, really to have that diversity of thought and experience. So I have included on the right a diagram which I think is a really helpful illustration of even where we treat people, sorry, just back to the previous slide, sorry, thank you. Where even if we treat everyone equally the outcome might not be fair or the same and I think when I looked at this diagram it really made me stop and think about how once we might be treating people equally in some cases you do need to go further and consider whether there is anything additional we actually need to do to create a level playing field. So when we are thinking about ED&I that is something really important that we just need to bear in mind.

So just turning to the next slide please. So pensions and ED&I and the pensions regulator – What is the regulator's vision. So back in 2022 the regulator published its ED&I policy and the regulator said that it wanted to build a workplace pension system that works for everyone. Its long term aspiration is the governing body is to represent today's society to make inclusive decisions that deliver good and fair outcomes for all savers and the ultimate goal being as I have just said that having a diverse pensions governing body made up of people with various life experiences, characteristics background will lead to better decision making with the ultimate aim of improving savers outcomes. And as a public body interestingly the regulator has recognised that its on its own ED&I journey and that it as an employer needs to do more to become a more diverse and inclusive organisation and with that in mind the regulator set out its three strategic aims which are included on the slides. Apologies if that is a bit small. I will just go through them.

So the first one is to be a fair diverse and inclusive employer.

The second one is to build a collective understanding of why pension inequalities occur and within their regulatory remit to work in partnership with others to seek to reduce them.

And the third one is to promote high standards of equality, diversity and inclusion among the regulated community.

So back in 2021 the regulator actually set up an ED&I industry working group to build on actually the practical things it could do to implement its strategic aims and one of the first deliverables in its action plan was to actually issue the guidance that was issued at the end of March 2023 and I am going to have a really brief look at that now for you.

So just moving onto the next slide please. So as I said at the end of March the regulator published two lots of guidance one focusing on governing bodies and what we mean by governing bodies is trustee boards of all pension schemes and the other focusing on what an employer's role in that process actually is.

So I am going to look at the employer guidance first and this really focuses on ED&I, on trustee boards and how employers can help that through recruitment processes and also ensuring that employees have sufficient time to carry out their roles as trustees. And the guidance covers a variety of issues and I am just going to give some of the key highlights. So it covers the selection of trustees and it really encourages employers to promote trusteeship as an opportunity to add value to personal and career development for employees. Obviously the employer can only really influence and select employer nominated directors but I think there can still be a role in helping employees who might be putting themselves forward for the member nominated role understand that is a really valued role. It also make the point that employers need to consider carefully their legal obligations under the Equality Act when they are doing any kinds of recruitment selection process. That is really, really important and I will come onto look at the reasonable adjustments requirement that is outlined in a bit more detail in the governing bodies guidance.

The third element is well actually join up with other ED&I initiatives that the employers got in its own business. There is a lot of really fantastic initiatives going on within businesses and I think that is something that can actually be used for trustee boards to help them fulfil their obligations as well. Are there any skills gaps , think about any skills gaps that need to be filled and how you are going to do that and actually think about how you encourage individuals who are perhaps not in those senior management roles to think about becoming trustees as well. I know with our own pension scheme governance committee there were quite a few senior people on it from different parts of the organisation and one of the things we did was to encourage more junior members of staff to come on board and actually that brought a really different perspective in terms of what they value, what is important to them and how we communicate with that particular demographic. So it is just thinking a bit more broadly about what you want the board to look like.

And then I think the final points I will make and I am sure this will come up in the Q&A session is just around appointing professional trustees. More and more schemes have professional trustees on them. Lots of schemes are moving to professional sole trustees as well and so actually thinking about the recruitment process, the selection process, full professional trustees, ask those professional trustees for their ED&I policy. Think about incorporating questions relating to this topic in the tender process and actually ask them for examples of their own experience, how they have seen ED&I done badly, some well and what improvements have the trustee board seen from actually focusing on this area. So that is the employer guidance.

And I will just give you a brief overview of the governing bodies guidance. So just turning to the next slide please. So the regulator very much frames the guidance in terms of the trustees having legal duties to scheme members, good decision making is key to ensuring those duties are met and ED&I actually supports robust decision making and effective decision making and the guidance is intended to provide practical tips to trustees and really outlines some initial actions that trustees should be thinking about. Obviously there will be some trustee boards that are perhaps further on in the journey than others but the initial actions the regulators encouraging trustee boards to take is to get training on ED&I. This does not have to be expensive or complicated training but speak to the sponsor about what they have got in place and what your trustee board might be able to use. Is there somebody in the HR team, for example, that could come and help trustees with this. And there is also various organisations out there both within and outside the pensions industry that provide ED&I trainings that the trustees would be able to access. Once you have had that training, think about developing an ED&I policy and when you are doing that, having a think about what your agreed definition, what does ED&I mean to you and off the back of that, what is your aims, what is realistic, what do you want to achieve by when. Then also thinking about ,well okay, we have got these objectives in place, how are we actually going to measure and ensure that they are working. And just linking back to something I touched on earlier, there is a real recognition in the guidance that schemes will be in very different place with their ED&I strategy and I think that is really important, there is a lot that schemes are grappling with at the moment particularly with the impending general code and so making sure that you are able to focus on the right areas for your scheme is important but I think there are some really small steps all schemes can take to move themselves forward on the ED&I journey, if I can put it like that.

And finally I just wanted to touch on some of the key points coming out of the guidance and I will do that now in turn going through the boxes on the slide. So firstly, the role of the chair the regulator is very, very clear and I do not think it comes a surprise that it is the role of the chair to really lead the ED&I progress and set the tone for discussions around inclusivity and also to really embed ED&I in the culture of the board and so selecting your chair, giving feedback to your chair will become really important in this area.

I've already touched on this but assessing progress against policies, lots of trustee boards have lots of policies they put in place but the policy is only as effective as well as it is working. You cannot just have a fantastic policy and not test that it is working and I think the regulators focusing on that saying, well how are you going to actually test the policy is working, the agree objectives and goals at the start of the year and have a regular method for reviewing that on an annual basis and actually get feedback from the trustee board generally, your advisors and also if appropriate to do so from members as well.

Enhancing diversity. So going back to what I was saying about the regulators guidance for employers in this area. Having a think about the pool of people that you are asking to become employer nominated directors appreciate those challenges we are getting member nominated directors on board but there are still ways that you can make the role attractive and make it easier for individuals to do the role and I think having an open line of communication with the employer in relation to those issues and also on ED&I is really helpful and that is something the regulators encouraging.

Fixed term appointments I think is a really interesting one. We typically see fixed term appointments for member nominated directors and they will change after a period of time. I think quite often employer nominated directors will sometimes get put in place and are not reviewed as often. I am not saying that they necessarily need to change but it can sometimes be a barrier to change if you have very long serving trustees on board and that is not reviewed just to make sure that really the right people, the right skillset is on the board to enable the trustee to do its job properly.

Reasonable adjustments. This is a really interesting but a really important area I think and I am not sure how often it something that is actually thought about during the trustee recruitment process. So do you have any candidates who have disabilities or health conditions where adjustments need to be made. Do any individuals need extra time off work or off their day job to enable them to have time to read the meeting papers to prepare properly for trustee meetings. Can everyone attend meetings in person and if they can, are there any issues with accessibility that need to be dealt with assistance, etc. and meeting papers they often produce in a paper or an online format. Is that sufficient for everyone.  Are there any individuals who need them in a different format for example. And so I just think it is something that I do not know how often we all think about that but it is something that is really important and I know Vivienne will have more to say on that.

And finally advisors. We will cover this later again in Q&A I am sure cause Nadeem is very well versed in appointing advisors, running tender processes etc. but TPR notes in the guidance that advisors and their selection has a really important role to play in all diversity so an ED&I strategy right through from the selection of advisors to how you are advisors are delivering advice and also what that advisory team looks like, what is the makeup of that particular team. So again I think that is something that the regulators encourage in trustee boards to think about.

So that is all I was going to say in terms of the overview in terms of ED&I where we are now so I am now going to invite Vivienne and Nadeem to come on screen and we will start the Q&A session.

Hi both, how are you? Good thank you

Joanne: Excellent. So first of all just sort of as a general question and it would be just be really interesting to get your take given the different roles you both do. So I just want each of you to comment really on what ED&I means to you. So Vivienne I do not know if you want to go first and then Nadeem afterwards, that would be great.

Vivienne Reeve: I think essentially what it means is that the people who are making decisions so those people on the board have a real understanding of the needs of the people that their decisions affect. So better representation of people, better diversity of thought means amongst those trustees means that they are more likely to have a better understanding a better insight and be better able to make the right decisions that really make the best outcomes for the people they are representing.

Joanne: Thank you.

Nadeem Ladha: For me I think it is partly about people, a bit partly about culture as well. So having the ideas and in peoples' minds is one thing but how do you kind of then adjust cultures so that everyone is heard and it does not feel hierarchical, you know, dominances, control, so that actually the diversity already exists typically across employers trustee boards in particular and advisors that can all be heard rather than kind of stifled. So I think that that really captures it for me.

Joanne: Yeah, that is great. Thank you. Thank you both. And so I guess there is various aspects to ED&I in a pensions context. There is looking at the sort of the trustee board maker but then also looking at what it means to members and we have touched on the importance of advisors in this as well. So just turning to the trustee board and I guess perhaps one for you, Nadeem. Why should trustees be interested in ED&I and what are the benefits for the trustees with so many other important issues on the agenda, the increased regulatory burden that you are all, you know, dealing with on a day to day basis?

Nadeem: Yea, I mean, well it is comes down to outcomes and I think we have this chance to reach such outlet that demonstrates that with different voices and different ideas that you tend to get more diverse thinking and therefore you can land on a more optional outcome. So if you want to boil it down to purely outcomes I think that is pretty clear but it is interesting you talked about appointments and running it by the selection processes. And it is really interesting that you find that when you do go through those processes the kind of terminology that is used during the decision making is around or fresh ideas or a different type of energy. That kind of freshness really kind of comes into the selection process and the reason is because people can kind of see that there are new things that had not been thought about being brought to the table. Obviously they have to make sure that those advisors can continue with those that freshness and that energy but I think that really just encapsulates and almost proves that people do care about this, people do want to hear different things but they need to be exposed to it in the first place to recognise that.

Joanne: Yea. I think that is really interesting. We have actually just had a question about how or own ED&I sort of how Gowling's policy kind of makes the firm more competitive and I think just touching on what you said Nadeem I think it is about bringing those fresh ideas and the different way of thinking but really importantly for me and Vivienne you might comment on this but I have been at the firm for quite long time now as have you Vivienne I think and one of the reasons that I have stayed for so long is having that culture where whatever level you are at you do get heard. Your ideas get respected I mean I think means that that helps us retain great people that were happy in their jobs which ultimately means that you deliver great advice for clients. I do not know if you have got anything you want to add to Vivienne?

Vivienne: I agree completely and I think the other aspect of that is that it means that new, the proof is in the pudding is not it and as you say its all very well having a policy but nothing actually happens that align to that policy then it is pointless but I think we see the impact in that people choose to come to the business and will choose where they want to invest or, you know, where they want to be, were they want to be a trustee based on what they can see so we have choosing now to come to us because they know that we are good at supporting people with disabilities for example and I think the more you can kind of live that and I agree completely if you can see and if you feel that, you know, things move on and peoples' opinions are respected then it makes a world of difference in every aspect.

Joanne: Yes. I think that is right and actually one of the things I was going to mention which is not pensions related but an event we had on earlier this week which Vivienne it was part of the Enable network where we had two partners in the team who were wearing a fancy menopause vest which was sort of almost imitating symptoms of the menopause so the men could understand what it was like for women who might be going through that and actually I had a meeting with an employee network yesterday and it was fantastic the feedback on that which means that actually a bigger caring employer I think means that, you know, you just get, you are in a better place and with your employees and they are actually really engaged and supported.

Vivienne: Yes.

Joanne: OK. So in terms of trustee boards where do you actually start if you are starting from scratch with an ED&I policy looking at ED&I where do you start with your governing body, what are the simple changes you can make to encourage that to happen?

Joanne: I don't who wants to take that.

Joanne: Yes.

Vivienne: OK so I think there is no one size fits all because of dynamics and the schemes will be different seizes so I am sure Nadeem will have a very experienced view of it and I think as you talk through the pension regulator strategy I think the sort of starting points that I have been from research and thinking about it is to start with a kind of informal audit so where are you at with your trustee board, how diverse is it and narrow the gaps so what does it look like in terms of age, gender, race, what is the overall kind of mix that you have got so far, is anybody open about having a health condition or a disability, how open, what is the kind of trust level, what do people share in terms of recruitment, you talked earlier about not having really long appointments so that you can have that refreshed view coming in, do you have a plan if you don't can you map up where those skills are that you need to retain and perhaps where the skills gaps are and where you need to try and further those skills to fill that representation gap and then once you have kind of worked that out and you can figure out that uninforms your strategy which can then inform your training and objectives and kind of links together that way so I think starting with a review of what you have got can then help you inform where you need to go. Nadeem, what would you say from practical perspective.

Nadeem: There is a question that just popped up in Q&A and I think this partially answers that question as well so from a practical perspective I think where is the easiest place to get additional diversity into the board. I think that is we have talked about it before it probably is amongst the advisory group frankly and it is probably the employer nominated trustees and then behind support probably the nominated trustees particularly within schemes but I come back to the practical elements and I think it does come down to culture so once you have got these difference people there once you have spoken to the employer and you kind of say look what skillset do we actually think is going to have the most value rather than just finding a person that is going to put their hand up quickest an when you are looking at the advisory group making sure that actually not that they have just got fresh ideas and are keen to talk and put those ideas forward but actually they are not overly dominant either but they are willing to listen to the trustees and peers not necessarily as people they need to educate and I think you see that a huge amount where clearly advisors know a hell of a lot but actually the way that they approach those meetings, those conversations in those rooms do need to start becoming more like peer to peer conversations so that actually that culture of kind of no fear in a sense can kind of penetrate and I think that will naturally just bring out those ideas so someone on the Q&A asked how do you do that with small schemes and I think it is exactly the same. You might have less people but actually the eco-system is broader than just the trustee board and if everyone around input into that trustee board as well.

Joanne: Yes that is really helpful. Nadeem thank you, and I guess just looking back to what you were saying around advisors and their role in all of this, I guess just to get into the Chair's role and I'm sure there are lots of schemes where you chair where you might be in a sole trustee position but also other trustee boards where you are the chair, you are the professional and have a lot of knowledge and you might have more lay trustees who perhaps are new to the whole pension scheme trustee experience but how important is the role of the Chair and how do you ensure that from an ED&I perspective you are bringing people along and getting their voices heard.

Nadeem: People are more open when there is a sense of humility across the Chair and coming back to the advisors as well and so I think the Chair's role is probably threefold actually but the term needs to first of all really understand the individuals because there is a lot of hidden diversity, hidden experiences, hidden knowledge across what might seemingly be very similar people from the same organisation but actually there are no two individuals that had the same experiences whether that is early on experiences or even if work experiences so I think it is the chairs responsibility  to make sure they really understand those people as human beings not just as trustees and also try to have conversations about experiences and how almost coach they into how they can use those experiences and how they are relevant and valuable to the trustee board because a lot what you will see sometimes I don't know about the topic that we are just about to talk about but they definitely know about the topics that they have been involved in historically and it is bringing those kind of tangential ideas into the discussion that is really important rather than them just sitting there listening and kind of saying there is nothing wrong with what I just heard so let's go ahead with it so I think that is the first role kind of really understanding the people and then I mention humility before, and I think you do have to sit there with humility and that is not just going round the table kind of saying well I have got something to input. I think it is really making people feel that they are valuable and you can only do that by almost kind of showing some level of vulnerability and some level of peer collaboration in the room.

Joanne: No thank you Nadeem that is great. I guess the next question to ask and Vivienne you might have something to say on this so would the need to look at ED&I and trustee boards, how do we balance diversity of skillset knowledge with ensuring the maintenance of the trustee board is diverse and inclusive in terms of being representative of people with protected characteristics so it is looking at the sort of equality and looking at it through that lens but looking at through the slightly wider and important lens of making sure you have got the right skillset as well on the board.

Vivienne: I think as you say managing the skillset and the technicality was critical but I think in that kind of informal audit of skillset to work out where are the gaps in knowledge can help then strengthen the board so they kind of go together and so if the trustee board is more diverse and representative than that can help strengthen what is already there but you know you have got to have that technical knowledge as well but I agree completely what hat Nadeem is saying in the sense of the Chair having that role in understanding perhaps the hidden skills of the other people in the team and being able to bring those out and bring them to the fore and I think we talked a bit earlier about making sure that balance between dominating voices and making sure if there are people who are perhaps more reticent to follow up with him and try to bring them into that conversation and so it is a kind of balance I don't think either is supreme, you have got to have those technical skills obviously but I think in doing both you are enhancing both if you know what I mean.

Joanne: Yes. Agreed and I think it is an interesting one about Nadeem you were saying about bringing people in because I think into the discussion because I think sometimes the trustee meeting agenda is so busy, the meeting pack is so huge that actually finding time I think to make sure that you have got time for those kind of discussions and to hear the voices of everyone is quite hard. I don't know if you have any practical tips in terms of how you do that.

Nadeem: In the same way that kind of chairs and advisors tend to work in between meetings to kind of almost kind of co-create a solution hopefully, that should be the absolute minimum. I think we have got to bring other trustees into that process as well where they are willing and engaged to kind of help that creation of the solution so that when they get to the trustee meeting are actually armed with the knowledge and the confidence to input and evolve. I think that is really, really helpful and I have seen many trustees who are absolutely fantastic, very knowledgeable, very experienced people go from being silent observers to being very energetic and very informed and inputting and changing the direction of what we end up doing because again unlocking stuff before meetings and getting their input before meetings kind of helps them to feel like they are actually part of solving the problem rather than again just receiving an answer with a whole bunch of defence around why they answered the right answer and then almost kind of being told to accept it otherwise it is going to take another three months to come up with another answer so I think that is probably my biggest tip.

Joanne: Yes and I think that is a great tip actually and going back to what the regulator guidance is saying on working out what ED&I means to a trustee board and how you measure it. That is just one example of how you measure success in a way isn't it that introducing something quite simple between meetings and then having that person who was perhaps actually not keen to contribute to discussions suddenly being very engaged and actually changing the direction of what the trustee might be doing is a real measure of success I think that is really helpful, and so turning on to members now ED&I and the trustee board is one thing but ultimately we are all here to try and deliver better outcomes for members so Nadeem I guess one for you, what role does ED&I have in improving member outcomes do you think?

Nadeem: Yes I think we kind of touched on it right at the beginning when we were kind of there's a whole bunch of solutions and we ideally want to find the best one. If you do not hear the idea in the first place you are not going to land on the best one most of the time. You are going to land on something so optimal so I think just taking it back to basic kind of the more ideas of our you are more likely to be able to kind of create maybe a tip to the solution that that is best and that best whether we are talking about security when you were talking about increased value effort, whatever it is in the absence of idea and in the absence of having a culture where those ideas can be shared and brought about with time. You will get there in the vast majority of cases so yeah.

Joanne: OK. Thank you, and I guess one of the things that lots of trustee boards do struggle with not though want of trying is actually member interactions and Vivienne I don't know if you have got any tips, practical examples from the work you do with employees in terms of how you could actually improve interactions with members and make them more inclusive.

Vivienne: Thanks yes I think so. There are some common on the principles that I think we had crossed quite well. I think the first kind of thing in terms of making things more inclusive is getting the basics right so giving people the information that they need a the right time, not giving them so much information that is overwhelming, recognising I think that some members will have a much higher technical ability for want of a better word explaining or there be more use to these kind of communications than others and making sure that the language that you were using is plain and simple so that the pensions regulator expects plain English jargon free so that it is more inclusive. It is important to use if you addressing members individually to use the correct pronouns and name obviously. In more general communication the regulatory advises or guides suggests using they or them instead of general specific pronouns, agreeing a standard style of communication so that the reader is used to the style and they do not have to try and adapt to different style each time they are reading something and they can once they see it , they see where it has come from they can kind of instantly lock into they know what it is going to be about and also checking so that if you are using any terms relating to national origin, sexual orientation etc. those things are appropriate and what is why having a more diverse board is really helpful. In terms of accessibility, disability is one of the main things and accessibility that we are thinking about in employment space but also inner space so the DWP has recently reported that a fifth of people of the state pension age are disabled and trustees have a legal duty to ensure communications are accessible to disabled members so that means thinking about whether members prefer postal communications or online, we do so much online these days but not everybody is comfortable with that, not everybody has access easily or at all. For written communications it is thinking about whether people can read easily so is the font large enough for somebody with poor sight, do they meet the disability guidelines. Thinking things like the terminology so rather than easy words like purchase, you use a word like buy, instead of approximately use a word like about to keep it simple. If your website online communications is the website accessible for people with poor site. If you use video, is it hearing accessible, is it easy to access so one of the things that we do as part of Enable internally is that we help with our internal projects and review things so that if we have a new training programme or anything going out internally then the team that I work with will often review it just to see if we can spot anything that might be helpful to try and just tweak before it goes out so for example if the website is quite busy, if there is sound, if there are different colours and lighting is that quite distracting with overwhelming somebody who has any kind of Asperger's type ADHD sort of condition, is it accessible in terms of whether it can replay or read out type to view that sort of thing and those kind of things are actually not that difficult to do, there is lots of online guidance from disability charities that you can plug into as well and that sort of thing can really help a member feel that they are being made that things are being made accessible for them and that they matter and that is another thing that they have got to battle through just to be able to get the same access. It goes back to your diagram at the beginning about the three people and what equality means.

Joanne: Thanks Vivienne. That is really, really interesting and Nadeem just sort of following on from what Vivienne said in terms of the trustee boards that you work with I'm mean in terms of what I often see there has definitely been a shift to online communications but I guess I am not sure how much time is spent considering the types of issues that Vivienne has just mentioned just because of time constraints, budget constraints, all of those kind of things and I just wondered whether any of the trustee boards you work with have thought more widely about actually what can we do to help our membership or perhaps that is the next step in the communications journey.

Nadeem: Yes I think communication, I think the big step up that I've seen in particular over the last 36 months has been to stop thinking about communications as an afterthought so especially we are doing a whole bunch of complicated stuff, taking members through the journey through the different decisions that we might need to make or just being informed and it has really taken and rightly so a much higher kind of priority and we are absolutely came a shift from and recognition actually from simple communications which are less effective communications aren't simple from when you are creating them actually it has been really, really well thought through, really well planned and everything had new signposting so we talked about the same tone of voice but actually kind of signposting seven communications so they all link in with each other, people understand kind of what is going on, think risk transfer think  equalisation with all the other bits and bobs that are kind of going on in the ED&I world at the moment so we are absolutely seeing a big shift in that whereas arguably I would say that more communication but not historically we are just transactional so a whole bunch of stuff that we have to say let's just make sure we say it and it has probably frankly been written by the wrong people. It wasn't really being written with an audience in mind, it was being written with an author in mind and we know it is clear and that is not the right way to approach communications if you are trying to get good communications so absolutely are definitely seeing more time spent and a higher priority in making sure that what is going out is actually helpful rather than just kind of saying what you need to say and probably left unread and therefore misunderstood.

Joanne: Yes thank you that is really, really helpful. I am conscious that it is 1.45pm now. We have got about five more minutes or so to take a couple more questions and just going back to what we were discussing before Nadeem around advisors and Vivienne and I can talk a little bit about the questions we get asked if we are going through a tender process and what we are seeing but when you are looking at advisors from an ED&I perspective what kind of things do you as a trustee consider or look for in your advisors? What should trustees be thinking about in tender processes in terms of ED&I do you think?

Nadeem: I think by the time you have kind of got down to the shortlisting and the interview panel at that point you have probably already got comfortable about the plans or the individuals that you have on that shortlist are capable so essentially all that piece around credibility and ability to actually get stuff done is guaranteed and you know usually you have probably got out a long list as well so it is quite interesting because I was having another conversation yesterday around whether trusteeship was the consolidation was going to start becoming even more b to b  in terms of firm to firm type relationships, one then trustee to firm relationships and my answer was that it has probably always been a real big trustee to advisor relationships because actually the key individuals that had been put forward by their firms actually make or break the successor I think and I don't want trustee boards need to be braver about and actually what advisory firms need to be brave about is knowing what they really do want and the mix of people they want when a team has been put forward but then honestly I think advisors need to get braver at putting the different talent forward as well because it is very, very, very easy to play the safe card and kind of say we have got someone that has been doing this stuff for 30 years and then they specialise in this area and it was just a high probability of success isn't it? I think my message today is it is not a high probability of success actually, you are probably reducing your chance of success if you just go safe or what you perceive as being safe so I think there is work to be done on both sides but we are seeing evolution now and I think we are more aware as trustees of trying to bring people in, not firms in but people in and actually add different dimensions to the advice that we are getting and the conversations that we are having.

Joanne: I thinks that's right. I mean I don't know Vivienne if you have been involved with tender processes in terms of the questions that we get asked but certainly I would say in the last couple of years ED&I has not much higher on clients agendas and actually it is being able to stand behind that you are not just saying, you are actually able to demonstrate what you are doing as a firm and why that is as a benefit to the clients why we can bring something different and I think we have got a question in the Q&A function about what we as a firm are actually doing and I just wondered if it was worth giving a minute on that Vivienne if you wouldn't mind thank you.

Vivienne: Yes of course. I agree with you. All of the tenders that I have been involved with in the last couple of years ED&I has been a lot more of a priority and exactly as you say it is not just kind of a 5%25 box ticking exercise, it is a genuine drive and a genuine need to be able to explain what we are doing and also to be able to present on it as well and so in terms of our firm's strategy, we have different networks for gender and for LGBT, health and disability and open house and ethnicity as well and I think the two that we are doing a lot of work on gender in terms of improving representation in senior management and partnership which obviously you know about  but also I think the two things that I have been most aware of in the last couple of years are doing a lot more work on ethnicity and better representation across the business and also support following the appalling George Floyd situation in America and also of course the situation, the ongoing situation in the UK and it needs to improve diversity here, but also what I am mostly involved with in terms of our network Enable, and the work we do internally in improving education so we run events in terms of getting everybody to understand what disability is and what it can look like and how it impacts people at work. We kind of mentioned earlier we have been focusing on the menopause at lot lately because it is such a hot topic and thankfully I think people are realising that because it affects 52%25 of the population directly and everybody else frankly indirectly and women of menopausal age are the fastest growing demographic in the workplace and will continue to be for the next how ever many years, it is understanding the impact of the menopause on women at work is not just a nice fluffy thing, it is actually essential and so those were the things we have been working on and I think in terms of what we are becoming known for health and accommodation and being accessible and welcoming and frankly as we should be towards people with health conditions is one of them I think we are now really know that people come to us because they know that people, if they have a disability or they have specific needs then they will, they will have much more positive reception with us and that makes me really proud because we have huge amounts still left to do I think we all do in professional services. The rates of understanding you know within any business how many people have health condition disability and are really low because we know for a fact that in society in general, the disability rates are fairly high and then you do questionnaires within professional services at least kind of declaration is the wrong word because you should not have to declare a disability but the amount of people who will share the fact that they have a health condition is really low and there are lots of reasons why in terms of trust and vulnerability but I feel like we are making good progress and I think we are starting to be known for that and hopefully we can continue to build on it.

Joanne: Thank you very much Vivienne that is really helpful. I am conscious of time but I wanted to ask our guests one more question and sort of give those of you who are trustees on the call a takeaway. If trustee boards could do one thing to improve ED&I what would it be and why so Nadeem I don't know if you want to take that one first?

Nadeem: Yes I can. It is quite interesting because I think I have been through a journey in understanding what the easiest thing the quickest kind of win is there and originally clearly getting different people on board is what we are talking about here but I do think when I started off right at the beginning around kind of flat culture around peer to peer conversation around being, arming people with what they need whether that is time or information to have a conversation actually is the most inclusive thing we could do right now and it doesn't require a big exercise it is just a slight change in how we act.

Joanne: Thank you. Vivienne?

Vivienne: I agree with that completely. I think what we can do is just embrace and see it as an opportunity and is something actually that we need to do going forward then as you say it is not just if we are burying our heads in the sand and just putting forward people with 30years worth of experience rather than a more diverse group of people who are better able essentially to understand the needs of people that they are there for then that is going to take things much further and I think that is going to stick rather than a burden.

Joanne: Thank you very much. Well thanks very much both. I think there was some really interesting and thought provoking discussion and I hope our attendees have found it similarly interesting and I think what it really shows is that there are some very small steps trustees can take to improve their approach to ED&I. As Nadeem and Vivienne said without actually incurring a huge cost or changing the way they work significantly and I think it is those sort of small steps that lead to bigger improvement so thank you very much both for your contribution.

Just to wrap up, just to note that once you log out of the session there will be a feedback form and we would be really, really grateful if you could take a minute or so just to fill in I think there are four questions for you to answer, we would really appreciate that so in future sessions we can cover any new topics you want or improve how we are delivering the sessions and then finally our next session in the series is next Thursday, so 27th at the same time and that is going to be focusing on what was the single code, now the general code, we still do not have it, don't know if we will have it by then but the intention is to give you some practical oversight in terms of what trustees should be doing once we do have it so hopefully that will a similarly interesting discussion.

So thanks very much everyone and we hope to see you again soon. Thank you. Bye