Stop the copycats - protect your designs

John Coldham: Hello, welcome to the 2019 London Design Festival podcast by the Design Team at Gowling WLG. My name is John Coldham and I am joined today by Romi Mathew and Martin Darbyshire. This podcast is a part of a series of podcasts we have done over the past seven years and the others can be found on our website together with an information booklet on protection of intellectual property but also our podcasts from previous years. In particular, there is an introductory podcast for all the different IP rights, including design rights, and also an introduction to protecting your intellectual property in China. Jamie Rowlands has recorded a podcast which covers the different types of things you can and cannot do in China aimed at smaller designers as well as the medium and larger companies.

Every year we try and take some designers' experiences of design and we apply them to how products need to work in the real world and if you have a product that works really well in the real world then it is more likely to be successful and the more successful product is also more likely to be copied. The purpose of this podcast is to explain a little bit about how one approaches design and the different elements that one takes into account but also how to best avoid the inevitable copycats at the other end of the story.

I do not want to give too much away about what Romi and Martin are going to talk about so I am pleased to introduce Romi straightaway to explain a little bit about his Bluebell product and how the idea came to life.

Romi Mathew: Hello everyone, I am Romi Mathew. I am one of the founders of Connido. Connido just launched the world's first connected global platform using a mesh technology and our first product is Bluebell which has successfully launched with John Lewis. The company was started by myself and the other co-founders. Our founders are doctors and management consultants and I come from a data background, I have worked in the NHS, so between the founders we have a strong medical technology background. We also have a full in house team of hardware engineers, firmware engineers, so we are a technology focused company to provide value for parents and we started this journey when I had my son and being a new parent we struggled. Being first time parents, we were worried about our baby's wellbeing and safety and also being working parents we struggled to get into a routine and follow a healthy routine. This has a big impact on parents' wellbeing and one in four mums suffer from depression and parents lose a lot of sleep. So our mission was to reinvent baby monitoring, not just for the parent but for the baby, and that is where we partnered with Tangerine to help us with the design thinking of it because being a consumer product we wanted to make sure that it helped as well as the technology.

John: Romi would you like to explain a little bit about, for people who have never heard of the Bluebell product, exactly what the purpose of it is; why would you buy it before we talk a little bit about the design approach?

Romi: Sure. So around 50%25 to 70%25 of parents buy a baby monitor and a baby monitor is used to keep a look out on the baby when the parent is downstairs or they are not near the baby. One of the challenges that I had with our baby monitor is that you had to carry a big clunky device with you around the house; it is the size of a TomTom, long wires, battery dying in a few hours, so that is where being millennial parents you want to travel around, go outside of the house, and if you are inside of the house and you want something which is hands free and convenient. It tracks the baby's breathing and skin temperature. You just need to be alerted when you really need to rather than looking at something so there is general support for the needs of the parent as well.

John: There is a lot of very clever technology in there which, presumably, you have protected.

Romi: Yeah, before we started the journey we filed our first patent around the technology and how this technology would work for the user before we started the actual development of the product.

John: And obviously the technology is all very well and good but you are not going to sell that product based on your fancy technology on its own; you need to sell it in a box that people will buy from. You mentioned it is being sold in John Lewis, so one of the approaches presumably on how you are actually going to sell this product, is to make it look good and work easily and so on and you mentioned this is why you brought Martin and the Tangerine team on board, is that right?

Romi: Yes because these kinds of technologies are fashion lead and that is why we were very keen to make sure that we design something unique and it requires expertise. We reached out to Tangerine to help us with the raw design thinking, the branding, and literally everything that you see. We also looked at the physical and digital world interaction and how that would work for the user and that is where Tangerine has played a big role for the last four years we have been working together.

John: And Martin, this must be an age old thing? People have got these amazing ideas for technology or using the digital era to the best of their advantages but actually to sell a product you need it to look good, do you not? And be in a way that is just easy to use even though the technology behind it is incredibly complicated. When Romi turned up with this very clever technology, what did you do?

Martin Darbyshire: When Romi and his colleagues turned up we were kind of blown away in one respect because we thought that was a really good idea. We have grown up children now, but thinking back to what it was like when we had young children with noisy squeaky baby monitors that tended to listen to your next door neighbour more than to listen to your own, we knew that there was a big gap in the market there for something which was smart but at the same time we were also slightly hesitant because lots of technology start-ups are very excited about the technology. They often want to solve every problem under the sun but in reality the end user wants something that does a job really well, really succinctly, demanding the least amount of interrogation. And on the one hand, it has got to attract, it has got to pull people towards it, it has got to standout in the market and be distinctive but also, because you are essentially delivering a service in this case, you have to make sure that the physical product and the interface work seamlessly together so that they are as intuitive to use as you can make them and they meet all the quite different, distinctive physical requirements that are required. At the same time, in the background, being designers who are going to take something to market, we also have to be really careful about ensuring that we are creating the right thing which is not too expensive to make, does not have too many parts, is reliable, does not breakdown and meets all of the physical requirements.

John: Easy as that! So your first task was to take something incredibly complex and simplify it.

Martin: Yes, I mean, Romi and the team had done a good piece of work already in understanding what the elements might be. They had done some initial technology exploration. They built a very simple monitor that monitored the breathing of the baby and Romi tried that out on his own son; they got some understanding of the data that they could get and they have done work on what the chip sets might be, what the technical aspects of it might but there was still a long way to go to actually determine what the physical elements could really be like, how would they work, and also the interface that could make this huge list of possible bits of information that you are gathering be available.

We had to map out all of the features, work together with Romi and the team to determine what seemed to be the critical ones, push them quite hard as we went along to try and do a "so what test". If it is not meaningful, do not have it. Really drill down into the sort of meaningful content that is going to make a difference and really try and understand what the problems were that you were solving at the point in time and which device you should be using then to solve that.

John: For those who have not seen the product would you like to explain how this is a baby monitoring system but not in the traditional sense of having just a camera at one end and a little screen in the other as Romi has already described?

Martin: Yeah, so we think this is a new category of product in the baby sector. There are a number of products, obviously most people would be aware of the very old ones that just used to listen. There are new emerging technologies involving cameras, some involve pressure mats, some involve little display devices that can help you look at what your child is doing via the camera, some involve alerts at the same time. This is the first one that tracks breathing rate, skin temperature, movement and sound. There is a wearable that clips onto the baby's baby grow. It constantly monitors what the baby does in their cot, in their pushchair when they're out and about. There is a wristband that the parent wears and that wristband receives alerts from the baby monitor and can tell you the condition of the baby. It also enables you to track things such as feeding times or nappy changes. Then there is an app which lets you view the history of what the baby monitor has recorded and also what the parent wristband has recorded and then there is a hub which essentially becomes the home for the two elements that you use to recharge them but that also sits in the baby's nursery as a microphone so it is listening to the baby and also a thermometer so it is measuring the temperature of the room. It also has a nightlight that can play lullabies. This system is bringing a full suite of monitoring technology to parents but in a really easy to use and simple way…we hope!

John: With all that technology and all those different functions you wouldn't know this is the simplified version, I dread to think what the first list looked like! But with that in mind, how did you then go about making that simpler?

Martin: I guess the different elements have a different design brief in a way. The baby monitor has one really important function - it has got to stay clipped onto the baby grow, it cannot be possible for the baby to pull off or to chew, bite their way through, and it has got to be easy to clip and unclip on and off. That actually probably was one of the most difficult aspects of the design in total and a considerable amount of time was spent on trying to develop a reliable, easy to use method that is not going to break very easily and is going to be reliable in service.

The parent wristband provides alerts from the baby. It is doing so through a combination of vibrations and also via a colour changing LED which lets you immediately see the status and through a series of symbols which appear on the display to tell you what the issue might be. So if the baby's temperature is too high or the heartrate is going up it will clearly show that. If the baby is starting to wake it will give you notification of them waking. Through the app you on your mobile phone you can then fine tune the degree of sensitivity of those things as you want them so you can turn features on and off if you want to and you can also go back and review the history of everything that you have recorded or chosen to record.

John: So with the hub itself, that had to be good looking as well? Presumably? But also had a lot of technological functions to achieve because it had to be a charging station, a nightlight, a thermometer, a speaker, a microphone and all the rest of it, so maybe describe what that looks like and how you made that look good as well.

Martin: Designing the hub was quite challenging. It does have a lot of functionality. Principally, it is the home for the parent wristband and the baby monitor so it lets you charge them but it also has buttons on that lets you control certain features and provide the nightlight and the speaker for playing lullabies. So it is also the brains of the whole system so essentially there is a mini laptop incorporated inside the sealing and also an LED nightlight system which can be controlled by the app so it is a smart device but it had to, of course, be very simple looking, very easy to use.

John: And not look like a laptop!

Martin: No, it has got to be relatively anonymous, it has got to feel like it belongs in a nursery space but, on the other hand, it has also got to feel sufficiently technological that somebody feels that they are buying something which is worth buying and performs really well so it is a tricky thing to get right. And I think that applies across all three of the devices. Getting the design language right is quite difficult when you are trying to find this very careful balance between fitting within a high technology world and feeling that it is going to offer the performance and the reliability that you want at the same time as belonging to the baby category ane having the right sort of look and feel to be appropriate for that world.

John: You have mentioned the clip for the baby's baby grow but what other design challenges did you face? I think the people listening to this that design their own products may find it helpful to learn a little bit from you about what sort of problems came and the ways you go around these problems.

Romi: I think from our point of view, because parents are very protective of their babies, we have to make sure that the device is not really small enough that the baby can choke or any of the components or parts of it can easily break. At the same time it should not come off or if the baby chews on it the components should not peel off. The position of where the device was also needed to be thought about and we needed to make sure we could reliably detect breathing and skin temperature. These were some of the key things that we proposed to Martin where Tangerine looked at how and where this could be attached and how reliable it could be so I think that is where we took I think nearly two years for us to go from initial concept to a number of iterations of different designs, I think we have made over 100 prototypes of different types of products; magnets, clips. But also we had to make sure that the device did not damage the cloth so that was the kind of challenge that we had. I will let Martin speak more about it.

Martin: The different elements had different problems. We talked about the baby wearable/baby monitor, you know that is very tricky, but the parent wristband brought challenges too. We had to make the strap of the unit be separable from the main body so you have them lock into one another so you can potentially change the strap if there is a failure over time or if you wanted to deal with different colours, we had to think about the requirements of those but still allow low cost introduction because we wanted to hit the most attractive purchase price you possibly can.

With the hub, the problems were, as I mentioned, already there as there was a computer inside it and we wanted to keep it compact and small. We wanted it to be very easy to use. We have a nightlight with a very bright array of LEDs and you can control the level of the nightlight from the app so from outside the baby's room you can change the level of light; you can also switch on and off lullabies that you choose from the app as well so each of the different devices had quite distinctive challenges and design problems associated with them and the interface on the parent wristband or on the app have to be incredibly easy to use. They largely are based on icons or symbols so you want to ensure that they are understandable. The recording information is done very quickly and via the app there are three principal modes; a kind of feedback mode that just lets you know what the baby is doing, a programming mode where you can then define when you want to do certain things and then a kind of review mode where you can look back at the history of what you have done, what the baby has been doing and you can learn from that so if the baby is becoming unwell, you can go back and look at what has it been like over the last couple of days. You can track anything you want to track.

John: I suppose by definition you have the user very clearly in your mind when approaching a design project like this, which I suppose is stating the obvious but this is a user who potentially is anxious and worried. You mentioned possibly even some people may be suffering from a little bit of depression, and so you have got a consumer who is not the same as the one sitting around your design table because this is somebody who needs this to work, needs not to have false alarms I imagine. I cannot think of anything worse than it telling you that your baby is not breathing when actually it is and so a lot of time must have been spent on reliability but also, as you say, Martin, making it very user friendly so that if they are worried about something it is quick for them to find out the answer.

Martin: Yes, indeed.

Romi: I would agree to that, I think that is where, as we mentioned, there were a number of different prototypes. I think one of the challenges that we have here is to make sure that the battery life, you know, it gives you at least two or three days. I think we had limitations of what sort of sizes we could use on the parent wristbands. We had to make sure the different components that we use can fit into the design so I think this is where the journey over maybe three years, no, four years and counting, is going through a number iterations of various testing processes to understand false alerts and false positives and things like that.

John: The way it pulls everything together and really makes it fit for this century is it's something which is a new product and a new category. The advantage of having a new category is that you are first to market and you get some traction with retailers because you are bringing something genuinely new to the market but I imagine the disadvantage of bringing a new product to market is that you inspire others to follow. Where you succeed others will perhaps adapt and try and make something that becomes a competitor to your product. You are in a sort of honeymoon period if you like at the moment where you are the first one and everybody is sat there admiring but no doubt some will be sitting there working out how they can compete because that is how the world works; everybody takes inspiration from other people and develops their own, hopefully independently, better product that is how…and you will continually be improving your product as well.

What steps have you taken to bear that in mind? Do you make it trickier for people to make a product that is as good as yours?

Romi: I think for us, from a technology point of view, when we started our journey we filed our first patent around the connected devices and how it interacts with the cloud and how it interacts a smart device and then once we started making more progress on the algorithm and the testing we added more patents to build a portfolio of patents around that. At the same time we worked with Martin to look at the design level of patents that we can file and, unfortunately, I cannot get too detailed in the patents at the moment.

John: No, of course do not, what kind of approach did you take?

Romi: We closely worked with our law firm to understand what the opportunities are that we have and where we could potentially add barriers for other competitors to look at it and we are still campaigning to do that as we make more progress with the product.

John: Of course you do have to file patents in a timely manner before your technology is released on the market but designs are different in a lot of ways. By the very nature of using a British based design firm you will have a lot of unregistered designs that are automatically subsisting and the main key with designs is simply that your design is original. Now, you have mentioned a couple of times that you spent four years working on this but by definition I would like to think there is at least something that is a bit new about it in that time Martin.

Martin: I mean we are giving Connido the best advice we can around that they need to use design registration as an effective and sensible form of protecting the shapes that are involved. They have covered themselves in terms of the technology with regard to the patent and, sensibly, they have written those patents on a very broad basis so they are not linked to this particular market because obviously monitoring devices of this nature have tremendous transferability into other market sectors so you need to think very carefully about that.

Sensibly, they had trademarked Bluebell as a name and they had already defined their name before they came to us but we felt from a brand point of view that it was very right. We have given them advice around smart monitoring system as the thing that they are consistently calling it because I think the naming of these products and the sort of definition of the typology is quite an important thing you can be the first to market with that so it is important to have something which is clear and consistent.

John: Well, the clash on trademarks is always that you need something that is unique enough that it signifies just you but tells your consumer what it is but if you make it too descriptive then it becomes something that other people should be allowed to adopt as well because you are merely describing what you see. The combination of using the very strong brand, Bluebell, in combination with smart monitoring system being a description of the product effectively, those two things together mean that you have got a distinctive brand whilst also educating your consumers and it is an age old conflict between your marketing departments and your lawyers as to whether you want something that is more unique but does not tell you anything about the product or something that is more descriptive but using the two together is perfect.

Martin: Yeah, and some of the elements that we are not going into today, but around brand, for example, the development of the icons, which form part of the overall brand identity, they are key to the system so they are used within the brand communication material to help communicate the benefits that the product has and the proposition of parenting made simpler, we have purposefully tried to create that proposition on a wide basis so that Bluebell can move into a wider product range; they are not just secured to this sort of space.

We are looking at design as broadly as we possibly can in terms of trying to define as many own-able, defendable elements that set their brand apart and keep them spaced from competitors who might want to follow. But, as we have heard in many of the talks over the last six or seven years that we have been involved in, for those who are successful it is often a shock for the designers to learn to what degree these businesses are copied. When I think back to other talks where, you know, Richard Joseph from Joseph Jones said, "Well, we spent more money on lawyers and defending our IP in the first year of trading than we did on design." And people have to think very carefully when they are embarking about the protection that they have.

John: Well I think Richard said in his talk a few years ago that they have nine new infringements a week, and that was a few years ago when they were not as big as they are now, so I imagine that it has only got worse. And it is that line between flattery and annoyance when people start copying your products but it is inevitable and especially when they are high value products such as yours it will probably get fewer but more significant copies over time so it sounds as like you have done it absolutely right. And I think one of the important things that is coming out of what we are talking about now is the importance of having, if you like, a web of protection; not just going for one thing and sticking with that.

If you just had the patents that is all very well and good and that gives you the broader protection that it will cover other types of product, not just this product, but the trouble is you might find somebody who makes a version of your product…the copycats that are not actually adopting your technology but people, consumers, think it does the same job especially if it is a new product in a new category. We have found this with other clients where having a product in a new category, somebody might bring along a "me too" type product that does not work in the same way at all. They buy that one, do not really like it, so think, "Well, actually, the idea of a Bluebell type of system is no good." They dismiss your product off the back of the fact the copy does not really work so having all of this other iconography and good looking design means that there are other reasons why people might buy your products as opposed to the copycat and just through being better.

Romi: Yes, I think that is where we creating our brand positioning, our brand taglines and the colours and then also launching with a premium retailer will help us to sort of standout from other products in the market when they will come in future. If they are copying something we will reach out to them and we will start flashing our paper on what we have defensibility about and we will do that.

John: And the difficulty that some listeners might find is that, actually, it is very difficult to know what exactly people are going to do when they try and emulate your products. You do not know when you are sitting there on the design boards exactly which bits are going to catch on and which bits are not and, Martin, you have worked with other clients in the past where you designed the Sky+ box did you not?

Martin: Yes.

John: But what ended up being one of the most notable bits of that product which you had not necessarily expected at the time you were designing it?

Martin: Yes, I mean at the time when we designed Sky+, the thing we found from research was there were not very high adoption rates of personal video recorders.

John: Another new product category.

Martin: Yep. It is a new category and people did not understand the benefits that these new products were providing so the thing we discovered from research was that if you could, number one, emulate the physical controls to be more like a familiar product so that immediately made the device become more familiar and then you use a method of displaying the information in a way which is immediately recognisable for somebody, they had a massively increased chance of understanding the potential benefit that they could get and our clients at the time, Pace Micro Technology, and Sky, who was their client, now they invested very heavily to try and push this product into market but, at that point in time, were very focused on can we make this successful, you know, what is going to happen? How do we deliver a change? And then did not consider the fact that actually that central display feature, which has now become a key part of the brand for Sky…

John: You are talking about the LEDs.

Martin: Yes the ring of LEDs on the front of the unit, you know, they did not look to protect that in any form and, of course, now it is the icon of their brand, it is the thing that helps explain what the product does and how it gives value and so those aspects of the design are very important. It will be interesting to see in the Bluebell case, we have purposefully looked to crease user simple display so that we can keep the price point down. We do not want to spend a huge amount of money on a very flashy, you know, multi-colour display and we want it to be simple and easy to understand that just portrays simple icons combined with a colour change LED that changes the blinking rate. So the combination of those two things is a key potential benefit for Connido that they need to look at and try and protect because it is providing clear, simple information at relatively low cost which is an important point with their product in particular.

John: The advantage of IP protection and intellectual property protection generally, is that you do not have to do it all before you start so Romi you have done absolutely the right thing by getting your patent in the very early stage and are also in the process of protecting your designs as well through registrations. The good news is that, as I mentioned already, you can get some unregistered designs which last for less time but they still last a reasonably significant amount of time and you have those whether you do anything to protect them or not. Obviously it is good to keep records of what you have done, and the design, and who owns what and all that sort of stuff but you do not have to do anything to the outside world at this early stage.

The other thing that you need to consider is copyright. A lot of the icons and screen displays and so on will be protected as artistic works or literally works just simply through having created them so the good news for those listening who think that they may have to spend an absolute fortune on protection is that you do not have to spend an absolute fortune on protection but you should spend something. But you can also get an awful lot just automatically, especially if you create your work in the UK or in the EU because you get a lot of protection automatically by virtue of where you are based. That way, when the copycats do come along, you have got this array of different options available to you when you need to enforce because, unfortunately, it is just a sad fact of life that people will copy and they will not go into the same investment that you have taken.

Having this multi-factorial array of different things that you can use for your protection, and in different forums as well, so sometimes people might want to go to Court, nobody wants to go to Court, but might have to go to Court but there are also simpler ways of enforcing your rights against copycats who might put the product on Amazon or whatever. In that sort of forum having a registered design or a patent can help a lot because you have got a piece of paper or a digital piece of paper that you can wave at Amazon, or any of those sorts of platforms, and they will take note of that more easily than they will take note of things like copyright and unregistered rights where you have got to prove a little bit more about the fact that you have got it in the first place. They are good on both but the registrations are simpler. At Court, actually, the unregistered rights can sometimes be stronger because you have that extra time to explain what you did, you can explain how your designs are similar to the infringement in a way that on registration that you have got to set it all out at the very beginning so having that mixture of different rights can really assist. This might be a timely moment to explain that we actually have a series of podcasts available on our website which cover a number of different types of intellectual property protection including one on the introduction to designs but also ones on patents and passing off on trademarks.

Is there anything else you would like to tell us about your design process or anything, any learning points for the designers listening of things that you might have done differently next time round? Romi, anything from you?

Romi: Nothing from me as such; I think it is important that as you mentioned, John, that you try to spend your cost wisely on some designs that you could do at the very early stage of the journey than fighting a long battle towards the end which is going to make it more difficult for you so, I mean, that is the approach we have taken. Of course we have spent a lot of money but we have wisely spent our money that we have, being a start-up, in the areas where we could spend and, yeah, that is my advice.

Martin: Gosh, the horrible thing about design is there is always something better and as the designer you have to get used to the fact that when you produce the first one, you very quickly need to follow it with the second one. You are constantly learning by mistakes and making mistakes is a good way to learn as long as you fix them before they reach the market. So it is difficult to pick one particular thing. I think in this case there have been a number of challenges and I am pretty happy with the way those things have been resolved in this first iteration of the product.

Things that would be nice to have is more time to experiment with and be able to spend more money on are things like exploring some of the materials and being able to run a lot more samples in production and try and spend a bit more money on eking out the absolute best you can possibly achieve but time and money are both challenging dimensions and we had to get something to market quickly but I think this meets the requirements of the customer and satisfies them.

When we launched the products at the baby show, the reaction was really positive, I mean everybody we have shown it to, if you just talk to them and say, "Are you interested in baby monitors?" they are looking at you and thinking "Well, not really, I am buying prams and I am buying this, why would I want a baby monitor?" and then they suddenly think "Oh yeah actually we do need a baby monitor." And then you get them to think about what type is it, what does it do and very quickly they start to say, "Actually, this is really good, isn't it?" and then they are often saying things like, "Well it is three products in one, isn't it? It plays lullabies, it has a night light and it helps me monitor my baby." So I think when you see that then you know you have got some things right as well. You have managed to bring together the absolute right, perfect things that do meet the needs of the customer, do satisfy them, are easy to use, simple smart-looking, fitting to the market position but still sufficiently distinctive to be own-able and recognisable which is why John Lewis when they saw it, were like super excited and said "This is something we want to have, we have to have."

John: It is a pretty good testament to a successful start. Romi, you must be pleased with that?

Romi: Yes, yes, we are happy with our launch as Martin suggested that we had a good launch and we have more than 200 plus active users at the moment and I was telling Martin last week that we have more than 290,000,000 data points that we captured and from the data we can understand how the users are interacting with the device and the users are interacting with the app so we know we have created a solution. We can see that parents are interacting and they are using the device how we intended and, of course, we will keep on improving this and, as Martin said, design all these changes and we learn from our mistakes and we will keep improving it.

John: And I suppose having that data that is coming in from your existing users will give you that advantage over the copycats as well so you are just using IP but just being better than everybody else and by having these data points you will be able to refine your product while everybody else is just starting out.

Romi: Yeah, we have, as I said, yeah, we will constantly be improving it, you know, we are doing two new firmware releases every week. We have already started developing changes to my factory and designing the different mechanical components, everything that needs changing, so hopefully within six months from now we think the product will become something completely different from a mobile app used. From an experience point of view I think this is where we will improve.

Martin: Yeah that is where you will accumulate knowledge that others cannot follow so you are absolutely right that there will be lookalikes which are lookalikes but what Bluebell need to concentrate on is building better and better products and refining them so that their performance is enhanced and they do have happy customers that get from the device what they want.

John: And Romi, I promised at the beginning I would let you plug it. Apart from John Lewis, how can people find out more about the Bluebell product?

Romi: So our website is www.bluebell.io and that is our own website and also if you go to John Lewis' website and put "Bluebell smart monitor" or on Google, "Bluebell smart monitor", you will find more details about the product.

John: Perfect.

Romi: And I was also going to say we have been very happy to announce that today we are shortlisted for the best baby monitor for 2020, hopefully, we are hoping that we will get the best, you know, we are currently just shortlisted at the moment so…

John: Congratulations! What a great start, what a great start that is brilliant. It is a lovely success story already, Romi, and you have only just started and Martin's design work through his team at Tangerine have obviously done a brilliant job to help you as well.

Thank you for listening. For more information and for the rest of the podcasts we have recorded in connection with London Design Festival, please visit our website at gowlingwlg.com/designsforlife.