Faire mousser les affaires (épisode 10) | Changez d'optique professionnelle avec George McGehrin, président, The McGehrin Group (en anglais seulement)

You are listening to "Accelerating Business", a Gowling WLG podcast Season 1

Louis: George, welcome to the Accelerating Business Podcast, the pandemic edition. Great to have you with us. Where are you talking to us from?

George: Lou, it's great to be on. It's always good to catch up with you. I'm on the New Jersey side, I'm five miles from New York City. It's from – where we are, I mean – we can literally see New York City, but it's like this Gotham place that you're not supposed to go to. We're about five miles, so that's what, eight kilometers from New York City? A place that I'm usually there like, five, six times a week, sometimes I'm there twice or, you know, two, three times a day. But, uh, you know, for now, on the other side, you know, of the river per se. 

Louis: I know we're going to talk for an extended period about what you do, especially in the coaching context, but this obviously is a disruptive time. How has it affected your personal and professional business life? You've been in isolation, obviously. What do you miss the most?

George: That's a great question. I miss the non-Zoom, you know, interaction, right? So, we have three businesses. The first one is an eight-figure executive recruiting business, the second one's a seven-figure branding business, and the third one is a coaching business. But all that I mean, I guess the common denominator between all three of those is just people, right? And I miss that person to person interaction, especially in New York City, there's so much and I travel quite a lot. But that, hey Lou, let's go have a drink after work on me, you know, for a quick drink. Ah, I missed that banter. You know, I miss that a lot. I tell you the other thing I miss, this might sound like somewhat playing devil's advocate here, but I miss some of the, you know… It's just people are extremely calm, and it's just, it's calmer than it should be especially in this area. This is a very, you know, populated area that we're in, at least where I'm from. And that frantic kind of lifestyle back and forth, I kind of missed some of that, you know. I kind of miss the horn honking and the people getting mad at you because you're crossing the street when you shouldn't be. And I saw some of that edge that we were known for in this part of the world. 

Louis: Well that's interesting. And I think in reflecting on it, an understandable observation, it's a bit counterintuitive, right? Because those things tend to irritate us so much, but we find now in missing them that it's very disruptive. They are things that we miss in our normal routine. 

George: Right.  I mean, even the fact of it, I mean, you know, you just look up in the sky, there's airplanes and you don't see many of those. Right? And, you know, you're totally right about that. But I don't know about you, but there's also some customs, that at least from a…My company's always been set up, we have a remote, you know, kind of environment. We've been like that since 2009. Right. So, you know, the transition was pretty nonexistent. Right, for my team and myself. The thing that I'm seeing, though, on the recruiting side is obviously you've got other people that are not used to work, you know. They're not used to working from home. And they're kind of, you know, they have more work than ever, right? Because they have to work now. So that's kind of been an interesting thing. And you know, I'm like you, I'm pretty laid back right? With some of these changes, you have to be, you have to be able to adapt to new environments, and new scenarios, and just new things. So, I think that you're seeing a lot of people in the world, figuring things out. And there's been a lot of positivity, at least that's been I don't know if you agree with that. But there's been some, you know, great things have happened also, because of this. 

Louis: Yeah, well, there's no question that in some respects, people coming together, there's been a good deal of positivity, I think others could point to a little bit of negativity, but there's no question that there are those among your clients, and in the business world that have been really disrupted by the change, and haven't been as successful as you've been in adapting to it, which leads me to a question about that. You've got a philosophy and a business approach and some wisdom and insights that you bring to your clients and the organizations that you work with. But have any of those fundamental assumptions or insights, any of your central teachings that you've developed over the years if any of those been shaken or changed through this? Do you think you'll have a different view of things going forward in your work?

George: Right, that's it. That's a terrific question. There's one I mean. One of the things that I've preached over the years has always been the face to face interaction, right. It's one thing to do something on the phone, but another thing is to actually physically be sort of in the space of somebody else in that connection. And I think I mean, as you know really well now, that you have to be very conscious of the whole Zoom video conferencing, you know, error, that we're about to, at least from the recruiting standpoint and from an organization standpoint, in a meeting standpoint, that I think we've already entered into, but that will just only be more embellished, right. So, you know, there's things like…I mean, Lou, I'm telling you, I just bought a professional camera, right? We've got lighting we're buying, we're buying cameras. We're buying all of these things, right? Why would a guy who runs an executive recruiting firm, why would I even care about those things, you know 10 months ago? Or a year ago? And now, you know, we're the proud owners of I don't know, I just bought a Canon M 50, and I'm sure people will tell you that that's a terrible camera to buy, I don't know. But, uh, you know, that presence, like you and I just now right before the call, I mean, you know, we're just chatting via video, right? Just so we can meet each other. You know, normally we'd meet over a drink in either Canada or here in the States, right? So, I think that that's the shift, right? And I've been on, I don't know, 50 shows in the last two or three months. So, I'm personally getting used to that. But I have clients and I have candidates that I mean, I'm telling them and I'm preaching this to them, that you have to get ready for that, because that is the next wave of how people will do business, and how to hire and do deals. And, you know, that's a polish that you have to, to me, doesn't seem to some people, it's natural. But I think it's a practiced event. Right. So, I think that's the shift at least for me, personally and professionally.

Louis: It does, you know, obviously raise a question as to what's going to happen in the future, which is itself contingent on whether we get a handle on the pandemic and the virus and, whether there's any prospect of life returning to normal. But let's assume for a moment that it largely does, and humans being humans, we revert back to old behaviors. How difficult is it to consider to adapt to survive in an environment that's largely digital, for those that are going to continue in that space and develop relationships, which is so much about what advancement and success professionally is, like, it's difficult to do on Zoom. What's your advice to your clients about that?

George: I would say I think you can use Zoom as a vehicle, right. You can use Zoom as a vehicle to interact, but I think at the end of the day, you have to maybe use Zoom and let that be a segue to somehow meet somebody in person later on. Right? So maybe it's just to like… My intention, for example, you know, with you Lou, is for is one day we'll meet in person, right? I'll be able to shake your hand in person, not virtually, you know, with one of these knuckle bumps, right, as kids do these days. But I think if you can use Zoom to segue into a real relationship, that's powerful, right? So, I mean, there's businesses that are literally, I think they're gonna just take off. There's some people who do really well on video, right? Some people do really well face to face. They don't do great behind an email, or behind, you know, even on the phone, but they have this energy on video. And I think I would recommend segueing Zoom or whatever, you know, technology that you're using, even if it's LinkedIn, right, to segued into face to face later on with the intention to. And that's powerful, right, because it's like you're meeting an old friend when you do meet up.

Louis: So, let's put COVID aside for a moment, if that's possible, and talk a little bit about your work with the McGehrin Group, especially as it relates to individual executive branding and coaching. And I think most of our listeners would know what executive coaching entails, but help us understand what executive branding means and why it matters?

George: Right. So, I think it's important for a lot of different factors, right? So, if you're, an executive, and let's say you run an advisory firm, or a law firm, or we run a manufacturing company, or its financial services. I would say back in the day, you know, folks would think of LinkedIn as somebody being a candidate, right, looking for their next gig or their next role. Branding, which could include podcasts, it could maybe include, you know, YouTube interviews, it includes LinkedIn, the social media, part of it. Branding now is a great tool. It's a great tool to deal with partners, vendors, folks that you'd like to hire, right, so that people are attracted to your firm as well as the person that's a candidate right. So, it's also great for folks that are looking for financing for M&A deals. It just lets you control… there's an elevator pitch that you're able to control when somebody actually goes on and Google's, who's Lou Frapporti, right? Who is this guy that I'm gonna have a meeting with? When they Google you, you're able to control some of that messaging. And I think I would say that some of the really savvy execs, you know, picked up on this probably four or five, six years ago. Most executives are pretty aware of it now. But there's a multifaceted reason why, if you're not thinking about your social brand, it's a mistake. And that's an important thing. And I'd like to conclude with one last thing, which you hear all the time. And I hear this from executives, they'll say, George, you know, I don't use LinkedIn. I'm not at LinkedIn kind of guy. Right? And I, you know, I can kind of understand that point. But you have 7 billion people on this planet, right, that have access to that account. You better think about being a LinkedIn guy. If you go out someplace like a restaurant, you meet, somebody – could be a deal, they're going to Google you.  LinkedIn is the first thing that shows up. They're gonna look at your social media, they're gonna look at other things you've done. So it's a really important thing. And it just gives you an opportunity to sell and properly manage your elevator pitch. 

Louis: It just seems to me in listening to your answer George, that the idea of branding and positioning that way isn't really just transactional, it's not about simply when you want to look for a new job. It's something that's constant, it's an obligation, certainly a tool that yield results as a constant practice or discipline. Is that fair? 

George: 100%. I think it's just part of the equation. Right? So, this is a question that I get a lot, you know. We'll deal with folks that come to us, and they'll want us to revamp their CV and their executive board resume and their biography and LinkedIn. And we always sort of preface it with, you know, this is only 15% of the equation, right? Like, we could do the most wonderful work for you on the branding part of it. But the sort of strategy that you have to implement, is really almost I mean, it's more important. I'll give you the example of, you know, I've got my mother. She is 79 years old, she has dementia, right? So, you know, we live across the street from them, and so we get to see them. But if I were to buy her a brand new iPhone today, right, it doesn't matter how great that phone is, it's the fact that you need to be able to implement the use of that phone. Somebody might not find any use for it; somebody might make a couple million dollars using that phone. So, you need to think about your strategy once you have your brand together. And then the strategy is, in my professional opinion, it's 80% of the brand problem. Some people get confused, and they get kind of stuck into this, you know, if they tell the story properly, everything will be gold, it just doesn't work that way. You have to really think about your network and your power base and who you know, and who you've worked with, and people that used to work for you. And there's all that dynamic. And that's when you combine that sort of a magical combination for yourself. 

Louis: Well, it does raise an interesting point. When people think about brands, they think about products. But the reality of brands is, you know, is that brands in a sense are a promise. A promise of what the product is or who the person is, and there's nothing more disappointing in life, than a lot of brand hype that gets you excited about a person or a thing, and then of course, the reality of it doesn't quite meet the expectation of it. And so, when you talk about the necessity 85% of what the equation is, after the brand has been properly positioned, what does it take to align the packaging with the person? Because when you talk about strategy, what I'm hearing, is the reality of behaviors. That a person's behavior really is that strategy and how they live the brand. How do you make that align? How difficult is that?

George: So that's sort of an open-ended question there. I think it depends on the person, right? Some folks are just naturally able to put those two pieces together, and other people have a hard time with that. That's obviously why they hire, you know, firms like mine or other coaches. But the problem that most folks have is, it's like in a lot of the executives, they want a quick sort of ROI, right? And what's the ROI on doing this one task? And it's sometimes a sort of implicit you know, intangible ROI. It's almost like going to university, like what's the ROI if you would have gone to a different university, or if you hadn't gone at all? And I think some of the executives understand that it's a long-term play, and it's just part of the equation and it's just, you know, just part of the storyline. They do really well in that kind of environment. But the folks that want to figure out, you know, the exact math behind the branding exercise, I think they're kind of missing the point on why they need to do this. So that's kind of the disconnect I see between the two. Who would compare sort of, you know, beta test between A and B, to two executives with the same exact problem? 

Louis: Well let's talk for a second about the brand aspect of it, the 15% the 20%, which is clearly what people can experience first. And LinkedIn, you've mentioned it, obviously, there are other ways in communication, you talk and work on writing quite a bit, which is critical. But when you talk about LinkedIn, what are the mistakes that you see is most common in people and how they present their brand? Digitally? 

George: Right. So, the first thing is I think they need to quantify scope in terms of the exact three or four or five problems they're continually solving. Right? So, some people have really interesting sort of pedigree backgrounds, but they don't have a cohesive message of why they've been continually getting hired over the last 15, 20, 25 years. So usually, they're solving three, four or five core problems, right? So that's the first piece. The second piece, and I see this over and over, it's showing the chess player, chess strategist, right, the version of view versus the technician. And you see this a lot, especially with CEOs and sometimes CFOs. But it's more about how you run the business. And if you're not a CEO or a CFO… If you're a CFO, it's your pseudo COO skill set, or your pseudo CO skill set. But it's more about how you move the pieces, then your day to day, and what you do for a living, right, so the qualitative job tasks. That's the second mistake I see over and over. And the third thing is, which is just really basic, you have to think about this in the framing, you know, let's say that you make a half million dollars a year, you make a million dollars a year, in five seconds or less, and this is why you hire an expert to do this. In five seconds or less, you have to show on paper, why are you worth that million dollars to sort of, quote unquote, hang out at your next place? Right. And I think people don't take that task really seriously. Those are three major mistakes that I see. You know, I always recommend, you know, you're trying to solve a million dollar problem, or, a half a million dollar problem, it's not whatever the service might cost you kind of problem. And I think those are the three things. Qualification scope, you know, number two is just the overall, sort of zero to hero story in terms of the things you bring to the table. And the third thing is also, like I mentioned, obviously, a different order, but just playing strategists versus the technician problem.

Louis: So I'm gonna unpack the second one a little bit, because I think the majority of people who listened to the podcast aren't necessarily CEOs, they're aspiring CEOs who are wanting to work their way up in an organization or be successful. But it would seem to me that the advice that you're giving them is constant and necessary throughout a career that you've got to show value and your capacity to solve problems, to anticipate problems, and not simply to react and provide, you know, a technical solution. And so in that regard, not that you're necessarily dealing with very much of a younger compliment, what advice would you give to those aspiring CEOs as to how to cultivate not just that brand, but the reality of behaving and living every day as a problem solver? And value creator?

George: I mean that's a great question. I would say, number one, you need to overdeliver, right? So over deliver, number two, I would say be extremely engaged in whatever you're doing. Number three, and I see this over and over, and you've seen this too Lou, it's like, that's not my job, or that's not my role. Most of the CEOs I've seen, I mean, you know, they're so engaged. I mean, you really don't hear that from them, even though they know it's not their job, or not their role. But you need to have an attitude, where you're willing to step out of the box and do other things. Maybe it's not part of the job that you were hired for. There comes a point where, and I think if you're looking to get a sort of, let's say, you're looking to move up in the ladder and move up in sort of the scale there or move up in that organization, you have to get to that symbiotic relationship where I, you know, I need you as much as you need me and once you get to that magical point, that's when you can start to move up and combine that with. With being able to solve problems and combine that with great communication skills and combine that with being able to really lead people, it's a win for both sides. And you'll see that the other thing sometimes you see Lou, sometimes you see with the bridesmaid versus the bride, I don't know if you've seen that in the career, where people are passed up. Sometimes the easiest way to get a better paying job or a better ranking role is just to change companies. Right? Let's say you're VP and you'd like to get to where you're, you know, you sort of report to the CEO, and you report to the CEO over and over and over for 15, 20 years. The easiest way to get that CEO spot is just to change companies and sell that story. 

Louis: When you were talking about those innate qualities that, I think, separate those who are successful in advancing or at a CEO level from those who aren't, you were talking about not having the attitude that it's not my job. Being engaged, being a problem solver. What came to my mind, George, is the thought leadership around servant leadership, the ability of leaders to view themselves as being really on a mission to help others, help their employees and help their colleagues succeed. Is it something that you subscribe to? Do you think that's an important attitude to cultivate?

George: I mean, I preach that here in my own company. We just hired a new salesperson. On my team, we've got 29 people, right, so there's 30 of us total, but we just hired our new person, right? So, this person will be number 31. I've spent, in the last two or three weeks, I mean, I'm spending pretty much 5,6,7 hours a week with this person to make sure that he understands exactly where we're trying to go, you know, what we're trying to accomplish. We're role playing. This is something I had done 20 years ago, right, 19 years ago. The feedback from him was, George, I've never worked in an environment where the person at the top took the time to actually do all this with me, you know, and I appreciate that. He is gonna have so much success with us. But I think you have to realize, is that my job? I certainly would say, it's probably not my job. To me, that's my job, right. It's my job to make sure that I preach culture. It's my job to be, you know, sort of a cheerleader and an ambassador for what he's going to do and the success that we'll have. And I've learned that, by the way. I've learned that from the CEOs of top companies, fortune 50 companies, right. They're still engaged with some of their employees, it's amazing. And that's something you can, if you're an aspiring CEO, you know, that's a great takeaway from today's call. To make sure that you add value and just give, and you know, things come full circle. 

Louis: It's interesting, and I love your observation around this, because I couldn't agree more with what you've just said. But it also very much is the case insofar as you were talking about LinkedIn. That an individual's ability to network, and see it not as something that that one gets, but what can give to those with whom you network, where you're there, you know, you're offering to help even in circumstances in which there's nothing directly in it for you. And that creates brand. And of course, when that happens over and over, and you are seen as that person, it seems to have a very significant effect in growing your network. What would you say about that is an important consideration in expanding a network and having a successful career? 

George: So, I see this. This is another common mistake I see. Sometimes people are ready for the next role, or that maybe they've been, as of late, furloughed. They've lost contact with some of the people that they've worked with before, and then they need to reactivate some of these relationships. The smart executives, they're always, you know, networking, right? They're always trying to help somebody else out with another job. If that's the way you're operating then, you know, that's wonderful. Most people are not operating that way. You have to be very careful. I mean, coming from the recruiting side, I meet people literally every day that say, hey, George, can you give me a job to give me this or give me that? Maybe they've met me for 25 seconds, right? They don't know anything about me. I mean, how many times in your career has somebody asked you for a job right? Or they asked you to get you in here or there, and you kind of cringe when you hear that right? And when it becomes genuine because they were just giving…I think it goes back to that message of over delivering during your whole career. Asking for favor or asking to be part of somebody else's network is extremely important. There's a statistic, by the way Lou, that there's an 85% chance that you'll find your next role through six degrees of separation. And then I think the other part is, you know, through guys like myself and companies like mine, this is when you get to a certain level. So, you need to be really conscious of that, right? You know, somebody knows somebody that knows somebody will get your next job, maybe they'll get you your next client, right? So, you have to continually just try to help people out. I was on a podcast this afternoon, where somebody actually asked me, George, could you recommend me to these three people I noticed you know. I told my team, send the person 10 people. So, he had asked for three, and we were giving him 10. You need to over deliver on things that you promise, and that's how you build a long-term career. 

Louis: When you were talking about the over delivering. That's a skill, It's something that can be done so much, it seems of what makes an effective leader, or speaks to how people are promoted. It appears to be about certain innate qualities. And some believe, and I'm curious as to your views on this, that success is about those innate qualities that folks are born with. Some folks have it, some folks don't. But do you think that success in business and success as a leader is entirely dependent on what you're born with? Or can you learn and develop those skills in a way that leads to a successful career?

George: I think it's proven that you have to…I think everybody has a core skill set, and the other things you can learn. I don't really believe that. I mean, I've been, quote unquote selling for a long time, but it's something that I have to always practice, right? Some would say that I was born with the ability to be able to convey a message so that customers, you know, work with us. But I'm always working on that skill set, right, through either courses or reading or listening to how other people take a different approach. I would say everything we do in life is, they say that it's a 10,000-hour event. But I think where people make mistakes is… you know when I was younger, I think I wanted to be a professional basketball player. I'm too short for that. Right? You have to be realistic as well with your skill set. 

Louis: Sure.

George: Listen, I'm very good at the visionary part, I'm very good at from a business standpoint, very good at coming up with sort of, you know, ideas that grow things. I'm terrible at the execution. I mean, that's just the way I'm wired. But I hire people that are good at that. And I hire people that are great, you know, on the execution side, I hire people that are great operators. So, you have to think about what your core skill is. If can expose that, that's great. Things are not great at, you need to hire folks for that and build a team around you, that have almost polar sort of opposite skill sets. That's what we've done here. And I see that over and over, the best leaders out there, and the ones that are able to recognize what they're not great at, and they hire for that. And they build teams to complement their shortcomings.

Louis: And that's a great insight. Speaks to me the fact that having some degree of self awareness, taking an inventory of who you are, what you can do well, recognizing what you can't, and then building on that and constantly and continuously learning become key determinants of success. That's what I'm hearing what you've said, and I think probably a great takeaway for folks who are listening.

George: Right. And self awareness is something I think that comes with maturity, right? Once you get older, and sometimes you see this in younger kids, they do really well in life later on. But I don't know if you agree with this, but I think you really don't start, I mean, my self awareness started in, you know, my late 30s. Right, that's when I started to think about things a little more strategically and tactical, you know, maybe in a more mature way. And I think the sooner you can start thinking about that, you're an entrepreneur, you're still a student, let's say you're inspiring CEO, the shortcoming thing is a power, right? It's that knowledge is power for yourself, and not only from a professional standpoint, but just from a personal standpoint. Everybody has, we all have these demons, I guess you can call them and it's good to recognize that to be able to work on those things.

Louis: I noticed in the descriptions and writings that I read of you, clearly, you understand the importance of vision and dreaming, and you have a tolerance for failure. And I say that because of what you've just said, you know, those who succeed tend to have the courage if I can call it that, to fail, to try. But when it comes to the question of self-awareness, you know, failure can be a great teacher. It's massively important in terms of growth and success. If you can learn the lessons that failure yields, rather than, for example, blaming somebody else or not understanding why you failed and how to do better, would you agree with that? And is there some observations that you can make about that in your career and the advice that you give to others? 

George: Right, so my story is, I mean, I started my business because I was unemployed, right? So, I had this, maybe you would call this sort of pedigree background. I worked for a big four, I was able to study economics at Oxford, right? So, I did all these cool things, and I was still unemployed. So, because of a bad job choice that I had taken, they shut down a company and I literally started my recruiting company because of that. So that was a failure, that was sort of a mistake turned into a business model. And then I built up the company and all my clients were banks and financial institutions. And I went for it. Now, I went from 50 people, back to zero, right. So, I learned that again. And, you know, I had to start again. And the business that I run today is literally because of the failure that I had in 2009. I've got a more diverse client port; we've got these clients that are all over the place in terms of industry and geography and revenue. We have different streams of income. We have different business lines. It was all because of the failure. So, I think if you look at professional sports, I mean, I'll use the baseball example. You've got folks that are in the Hall of Fame, and they're batting 330. So that means that they're failing 67% of the time, right? And they're getting rewarded to fail, more than they're winning. You'll see everybody, I mean, everyone that's ever really done anything, I don't know if I'd put myself in this category as successful, but you know, just there's a lot of failure there. You have to be able to pick yourself up, and then that's it. That's it, that's an important lesson. I'm not taking life too seriously, and I think sometimes people take it too seriously. You need to be able to recognize, you know, there's lessons there you learn, and you get better at what you're doing. I feel blessed, actually, by some of the things that had happened in my life. To me, it's like this. It's like this bank account of knowledge, these experiences. To me, some of the best things that ever happened to me, and, by the way, in 2009, to paint that picture a little better, I was at the time, financially, just so irresponsible. I'd lost two houses, right? Because I just was so leveraged with cash, I did so many things wrong, you know. And now in this COVID-19, you know, quote unquote, sort of era, I mean, I'm getting to reap some of the benefits of my losses in 2009. So, to me, it's a blessing that I had some of those major failures. 2009 took me two years to pick myself up, quite frankly. So that was a long, you know, 2009-2011, rough couple years there for me and my business.

Louis: No question. And you're talking about failure. And using the example or metaphor of baseball, I was reminded of that iconic Michael Jordan. I don't know if you remember it back in the day where he is in a basketball court shooting hoops, and over the narration is him talking about all the shots he's missed in his career, right. And, of course, the ability to be able to tolerate failure and keep going is clearly critical in his life. But you know, it's funny in reflecting on that, it's one thing to have the capacity to fail and the willingness as an individual. In my experience, organizationally, where there's a real challenge is in more senior leadership, having a tolerance for failure and others, and seeing that as an opportunity for growth for those within an organization. And frankly, being transparent and encouraging of people taking chances to fail, because obviously, so many organizations are afraid of the consequences of their failing and what the implications are for their career. Is that something that you've experienced in your work with leaders and in businesses? 

George: Well, that's usually I mean, you see that in a lot of toxic work environments, right, where people are not allowed to fail. And you see that over and over. Usually, I mean, that's a key indicator that there's a toxic work environment right or, they've just hired the wrong person or the wrong persons in that spot. Or you know, there's a point where I think when you work with somebody, you sort of give them multiple chances. And, you know, sometimes some people are not fit out for now, they're not suited for certain tasks or certain roles. I think I've seen more of the toxic environment now where some people are afraid to take chances, they're afraid to create risk. But I would say, if you're a leader, and your team is afraid to do that, then, you know, in general, you're gonna have a bigger problem than just that one person, right? You have a cultural problem. The interesting thing is I've worked with people that are making from $300,000 a year to $4-5 million, right. And we've done a lot of placements like that. The number one component that I've seen in all of those sort of salary specs has been the why people didn't work out in a role. It's usually because of their people skills right, it's because of the leadership skills. It's not because they didn't hit their numbers. I mean, you've seen this even in your organization, there's people that aren't…they're not the best. But they're just always there. Right? They're present. And they're team players, and they give have other positive, you know, they bring other things to the table. Usually, it's a people problem, right? It's a people problem. It's a personality issue, they get triggered as easily. That's usually the biggest problem when you see these people failing at an organization, that's been my experience. I always ask one question, when we start a search. What was the number one reason or what is the number one reason you're replacing this person, right? And everything is obviously confidential. And they'll pretty much say in laymen terms, the guy has a bad attitude. He's just doesn't fit what we're trying to do. And that's pretty much what they tell me. And, you know, I must have heard that, I don't know 400 times that one line, about attitude.

Louis: When you say that, I'm curious. So you're hearing that in organizations that are filling new spots, but of course, you have clients who come to you looking for new work, and maybe in some circumstances, because they've been let go? Is that actually a conversation that you have with those clients in terms of you're looking to be successful in placing them? Or it's not something that you say, but you're looking to see whether they have a bad attitude, which is obviously going to complicate the conversation? How does that factor in?

George: I mean, I have one of these personalities where I'm probably not a great cheerleader. So, I sort of preface by my advice to them, with that first. That listen I'm not here to be your cheerleader, I'm here to sort of give real counsel on what you need to do. And this is why you've been the bridesmaid, not the bride, you know, 15 times in a row. You need to change these four or five things, right. Some people, you know, some people don't want to hear, and some people are really willing to hear, the ones that are willing to make a change. They do really well later on it. That's a tough conversation, right? I mean, when you tell somebody constructively, what their shortcoming is. I mean, in your situation, how many times have you let somebody go because a lot of times it's an attitude problem, right? I mean, I don't know if you agree with that.

Louis: 100%.

George: Yeah. And it's that lack of engagement, right, it's not that they didn't dot their I's and cross their T's. It's the fact that they didn't care about doing that. Or they just don't treat it like their own business. That's the biggest problem that have, we work with people, they might work for organization, but everybody that we're working with, most of these folks treat it like it's their own business, which it is their own business. So, it always comes down to that, but that's a tough conversation to have with people that are paying you to be honest with them. Some don't want to hear, you know, some tell you about all the great stuff they've done, and I get it, but you know, there's a reason that they're on the market, and especially if they're unemployed sometimes. 

Louis: There's a couple of things that come to mind when you mentioned that. Maybe not related, maybe related. One of them that I recall in dealing with medical malpractice litigation. Seeing some research that suggests that the highest percentage reason for physicians being sued for malpractice has not to do with their competence or whether their negligence, but their bedside manner. That litigants were more likely to sue a physician even if they were competent and provide competent service because they were jerks. Right? And less likely to suit incompetent physicians who had a wonderful bedside manner and who they liked. 

George: Right. Well, that's it. I mean, I can tell you this, we have like a laundry list of just amazing clients. And it's not because I'm the smartest guy, you know, recruiter guy out there, it's just, you know, maybe in terms of the relationship piece, I might play that better than my competition. So, you're spot on about that. I mean, it's hard to do harmful things, or, you know, maybe that's what's perceived harmful to good people, right? It's just, you don't want to give them a second chance. I have a guy on my team, I'm not gonna mention his name, but he's sort of has symptoms of like ADD, right, you know, so it's difficult to manage. And sometimes, you know, the best management is I just, I learned how to… I hired somebody to teach me how to manage that kind of personality, right? Because he's a good guy, you know, like, he's a good guy. And maybe in other organizations, they would have made me let him go, you know, he's worked for me now for five years. So, I was able to manage him a little better, and I just accept some of the mistakes he's made, right.

Louis: So, just out of curiosity, I'm interested in this both from a leadership perspective, but also individually in terms of either self assessment or recruitment. Are you a believer in the usefulness of psychological assessment tools like Myers Briggs? Are they a part of your routine? And if they are, is there a tool of that type that you think is particularly helpful?

George: I mean, I'm biased towards this, but 100% we use this to actually hire people, Myers Briggs, there's CliftonStrengths, there's the DiSC 360, right. A lot of these tools, and a lot of them are even free online now these days, but I'm a firm believer of hiring people that don't fit into your persons. You know, if you've got a team of 50 people, it doesn't make sense to have 49 entrepreneurs on your team, right? So, it's like a recipe for disaster. Everybody that we work with, we test. We actually once a year, we actually take the test, and we take the test and we share the results, everybody shares the results, right? I think it's cool to see. 

Louis: Yeah, it's cool. 

George: Yeah. It's interesting to see what, you know, what Lou's profile is right? And you're like, oh yeah, that's a spot-on assessment. Or you learn something about other people that you didn't, maybe you wouldn't assume. And then you can give them more responsibility, do other things. Does your does your firm do tests as well with new hires?

Louis: No, not generally. And frankly, in the legal industry, it's not terribly common to do that, although it's something that I've looked at a lot and feel strongly about. And it's a useful tool to have, right? Well, both for self awareness, and both to see how people would compliment an organization in terms of their attributes. Because let's face it, if what you're doing is exceptional, as a branding consultant for a person, sometimes, what I'm looking at in terms of hiring isn't necessarily what I'm going to get. And a tool helps to shed some light on that.

George: Well, the interview in itself is flawed, right, you know, the whole interview process, and how people meet and hire people. And, you know, this is just even going back to the whole video presence, right, even that's gonna be flawed. You're gonna find, and I think you'll see litigation one day actually on this, you'll see litigation where people working from home will say, listen, I don't want to give my employer the right to see me on video, right, even though I work from home. So, I don't know if there's litigation out there so far, but because there will be bias, right, there's gonna be bias in the environment, they'll be biased based on what the person looks like. Any tool that you can have to better assess people, you know, to better assess possible hires is a great thing. I guess I mean, do you think there's a reason that the legal profession doesn't give/have that as a practice to test folks? What do you think the reason for that is?

Louis: So, I can't say that I know for sure. But I think so much of what the legal industry does is rooted in its history, and the profession itself isn't operating on the same plane, as many of the businesses it serves in terms of its practices. It's very tradition bound. And I think that's part of the equation, we don't and haven't traditionally used that. I think lawyers depend very much, maybe overly so, on their sense of judgment and intuition, and just aren't used to using tools of that type. And I feel like it's going to change. I think certainly some firms are doing that. Probably will increase over time. But we're not there yet. For sure.

George: Right. Right. I mean, would you say you're 15% there? 30%? What percentage would you, if you were to give it sort of a ranking or rating, what percentage do you think you are?

Louis: Well, I'm going to say 15 would be charitable. But there's a related, I think there's an interesting observation about that, both in the US and in Canada. So much of our hiring, generally, is a function of, you know, the university law school mill, in terms of academic performance. So generally, historically, you're looking for the top students from the best schools. You know, the reality of my experience, and maybe that's just because I come from a hardscrabble background is that often the most successful lawyers are those that have really developed soft skills, and their academic performance really just measures their ability to do tests. But the ability to succeed in an organization and with clients, which is so dependent on relationship skills isn't really measured or valued. And it's those things that become important in assessing a candidate, which I think would be helpful in terms of insight by using those tests. And when we use proxies for them, right. I mean, you're looking at a resume, I tend to look for high levels of achievement in team sports, or athletics, significant accomplishment and things outside of their chosen field, whether it's music, or something else, which shows some aptitudes that are critical, or life experiences that I think reflect a person's nature and who they'll be in the organization. You know, it's funny. And on that point, you've done a hell of a job in creating that story in the material that you share about yourself, including the fact for example, that you're an ultra marathoner. I found that very interesting. There are all kinds of stories and how you present your brand. I obviously know that's important to you.

George: Well, I mean, it's tactical. It's how you'd say, well how does running habit? What does that have anything to do with somebody professionally, right? And it goes to your point, it's the mindset, right? It's the fact that somebody, you know, took the time to figure out how to run 80 kilometers, or, you know, and we're trained for that, right. There's a discipline to that. And I also come from that sort of, you know, that background where you kind of hustle, you know, to get ahead and initially, my grandfather from the Italian side, I mean, he didn't have more than a second grade education. And then my grandfather from the Irish side, he was a truck driver, right. So, it just comes from this sort of silver spoon background, right. But I can tell you, the one thing you learn is, and I don't know about you, but I would almost bet you $1 I mean, I get up at 4:30 in the morning, and you're probably one of those guys that gets up at 4:30, 5 o'clock in the morning, right? 

Louis: Yeah. I'm laughing when you reference an Italian and an Irish background, because if you were a chemistry experiment and you were to mix those two chemicals together, it makes for a pretty explosive.

George: Yeah, I've got a cool Irish last name. And I've got the Italian nose, you know, to go with it. So, it's good. I'd taken a picture of, this was on Father's Day, was a Sunday, at 8:30 in the morning, I took a picture of the parking lot of the office building I'm in, right. And I was the only car in that whole building, you know, in the whole lot. Right? And sometimes people say to me, and they'll come up to me and say, hey George, like, what's the secret? What's your secret? What's your trick? How do I do this? And, you know, and I guess I'll preface that with, I was at work at 8:30 in the morning on a Sunday, but I'd also run like 20 kilometers before that, you know, before I got to work. So yeah, I had done more than most people do on a Sunday. It was Father's Day as well. I was there for a couple hours. But it's that go get them hustle. Right. And that's hard to hire based on a school or an academic relationship. You know, I agree with you. And I, you know, so I'll go back to the reference of the Oxford thing. There are a lot of smart people at that university, but I also met a lot of people that weren't so bright, you know, and you see that everywhere, right? You've got some top universities in Canada. If you went to McGill, it doesn't mean that you're the brightest guy in Canada. You know, there's a lot of people that aren't, so I agree. It's that hustle, that scrappiness that gets people, at the end of the day, ahead.

Louis: I couldn't agree more George. Listen, as we're wrapping up here, I got one last question for you. Obviously, there's an enormous amount of self help and business literature and learning out there. And no shortage of folks who are popular today and in conveying advice and wisdom. Among the thought leaders that are out there, and you know, Simon Sinek comes to mind who is somebody quite popular, are there thought leaders, writers, speakers today that you think are particularly relevant and helpful that you would recommend?

George: Right. So, there's one person actually, in talking about Simon Sinek he wrote the book Why, right? 

Louis: Correct. Yeah, among others. Yeah.

George: Right. There's somebody who actually interviewed him. There's a guy, he's actually Canadian. Rock Thomas, have you heard of him? 

Louis: I don't believe that I have.

George: So, he's a real estate. You know, he's a multimillionaire. He lives in Montreal. Yeah. When he was younger, he was told as a kid that like, hey, you know, you're not really worth anything from his father. Right? And he had a very difficult upbringing. And he had grew up with this self, it's just as terrible. So, he started this movement called the I AM, right, the I AM movement. He works with executives, and he works with leaders and he's got a podcast. I was on his podcast a couple of months ago. But he's got this movement. Yeah, but he's Canadian guy. He's really interesting to listen to, so he's Rock Thomas, right. There's a video on goalcast, if I remember correctly, I think it had 6 million, 7 million views. Really interesting. But it talks about you defining who you are, right. Like you, not somebody else, right. Lou is going to define who Lou is and not someone else. Really, really interesting to listen to. And I'm a fan of, are you a Tim Ferriss fan? Do you like Tim Ferriss?

Louis: Yes, I do. 

George: So, I'm just fascinated by these life hacks. You know, so I'm a Tim Ferriss fan, I'm fascinated by pretty much everything he does, I've been a fan for years. He's the kind of thing you should listen to. The problem right now is there's so many gurus, right? Every knows that there's these people on YouTube and Instagram, there's all these experts, you know, kind of working from their garage.

Louis: It is hard to separate the pretenders from the real ones. Yeah, it's I mean, it's also true, though, that for those especially younger folks who are looking to be exposed to new wisdoms, you know, back in the day, George, when we were kids, if we were going to do that we had to go to the library and check out a book, right, there's just an enormous amount of information in a variety of different ways that you can get. You just need to be able to figure out how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

George: Exactly. And I can finish with this on my side. But the ability to be able to, like you say, prove yourself with just access to online tools doesn't cost much, right. If you have to find the right, you know, the right people, if you're financially able to afford it, you know, you can hire people to help you and just to speed up the process, and that's one of the things that I wish I had done sooner, invest in myself, invest in coaches, and the sort of people that could help me grow. Because, the more that you work, and the more that you kind of get involved with life and kids and marriages and other things, you just, you've just stopped growing as a person. And I think if you can, you could pay people to help you. It's a blessing financially, but I, you know, if you're a younger kid out there, and you're listening to this, you know, be careful of this sort of overnight success story about how if you sell 20, you know, 20 widgets, then you're going to become a millionaire. 20 years, I mean, I can tell you right now, it took me about 15 years to figure this out. Right. So, you know, the last five years have been terrific. But it took me 15 years of hard work to really kind of, quote unquote, rig the system, right, to be able to do what I do now.

Louis: So, George, that's a phenomenal bit of advice to end the podcast on and we'll be obviously putting particulars of who you are and how to get a hold of you on the site, when we release it. I want to thank you very much for taking the time to be on the Accelerating Business Podcast and I wish you all the best.

George: Lou, I appreciate the intellectual, you know, you're just a great interview. It's just different style, and I appreciate that. So, thank you.

Louis: All right, take care of man. 

George: Thanks. 

You are listening to "Accelerating Business", a Gowling WLG podcast Season 1

Louis: George, welcome to the Accelerating Business Podcast, the pandemic edition. Great to have you with us. Where are you talking to us from?

George: Lou, it's great to be on. It's always good to catch up with you. I'm on the New Jersey side, I'm five miles from New York City. It's from – where we are, I mean – we can literally see New York City, but it's like this Gotham place that you're not supposed to go to. We're about five miles, so that's what, eight kilometers from New York City? A place that I'm usually there like, five, six times a week, sometimes I'm there twice or, you know, two, three times a day. But, uh, you know, for now, on the other side, you know, of the river per se. 

Louis: I know we're going to talk for an extended period about what you do, especially in the coaching context, but this obviously is a disruptive time. How has it affected your personal and professional business life? You've been in isolation, obviously. What do you miss the most?

George: That's a great question. I miss the non-Zoom, you know, interaction, right? So, we have three businesses. The first one is an eight-figure executive recruiting business, the second one's a seven-figure branding business, and the third one is a coaching business. But all that I mean, I guess the common denominator between all three of those is just people, right? And I miss that person to person interaction, especially in New York City, there's so much and I travel quite a lot. But that, hey Lou, let's go have a drink after work on me, you know, for a quick drink. Ah, I missed that banter. You know, I miss that a lot. I tell you the other thing I miss, this might sound like somewhat playing devil's advocate here, but I miss some of the, you know… It's just people are extremely calm, and it's just, it's calmer than it should be especially in this area. This is a very, you know, populated area that we're in, at least where I'm from. And that frantic kind of lifestyle back and forth, I kind of missed some of that, you know. I kind of miss the horn honking and the people getting mad at you because you're crossing the street when you shouldn't be. And I saw some of that edge that we were known for in this part of the world. 

Louis: Well that's interesting. And I think in reflecting on it, an understandable observation, it's a bit counterintuitive, right? Because those things tend to irritate us so much, but we find now in missing them that it's very disruptive. They are things that we miss in our normal routine. 

George: Right.  I mean, even the fact of it, I mean, you know, you just look up in the sky, there's airplanes and you don't see many of those. Right? And, you know, you're totally right about that. But I don't know about you, but there's also some customs, that at least from a…My company's always been set up, we have a remote, you know, kind of environment. We've been like that since 2009. Right. So, you know, the transition was pretty nonexistent. Right, for my team and myself. The thing that I'm seeing, though, on the recruiting side is obviously you've got other people that are not used to work, you know. They're not used to working from home. And they're kind of, you know, they have more work than ever, right? Because they have to work now. So that's kind of been an interesting thing. And you know, I'm like you, I'm pretty laid back right? With some of these changes, you have to be, you have to be able to adapt to new environments, and new scenarios, and just new things. So, I think that you're seeing a lot of people in the world, figuring things out. And there's been a lot of positivity, at least that's been I don't know if you agree with that. But there's been some, you know, great things have happened also, because of this. 

Louis: Yeah, well, there's no question that in some respects, people coming together, there's been a good deal of positivity, I think others could point to a little bit of negativity, but there's no question that there are those among your clients, and in the business world that have been really disrupted by the change, and haven't been as successful as you've been in adapting to it, which leads me to a question about that. You've got a philosophy and a business approach and some wisdom and insights that you bring to your clients and the organizations that you work with. But have any of those fundamental assumptions or insights, any of your central teachings that you've developed over the years if any of those been shaken or changed through this? Do you think you'll have a different view of things going forward in your work?

George: Right, that's it. That's a terrific question. There's one I mean. One of the things that I've preached over the years has always been the face to face interaction, right. It's one thing to do something on the phone, but another thing is to actually physically be sort of in the space of somebody else in that connection. And I think I mean, as you know really well now, that you have to be very conscious of the whole Zoom video conferencing, you know, error, that we're about to, at least from the recruiting standpoint and from an organization standpoint, in a meeting standpoint, that I think we've already entered into, but that will just only be more embellished, right. So, you know, there's things like…I mean, Lou, I'm telling you, I just bought a professional camera, right? We've got lighting we're buying, we're buying cameras. We're buying all of these things, right? Why would a guy who runs an executive recruiting firm, why would I even care about those things, you know 10 months ago? Or a year ago? And now, you know, we're the proud owners of I don't know, I just bought a Canon M 50, and I'm sure people will tell you that that's a terrible camera to buy, I don't know. But, uh, you know, that presence, like you and I just now right before the call, I mean, you know, we're just chatting via video, right? Just so we can meet each other. You know, normally we'd meet over a drink in either Canada or here in the States, right? So, I think that that's the shift, right? And I've been on, I don't know, 50 shows in the last two or three months. So, I'm personally getting used to that. But I have clients and I have candidates that I mean, I'm telling them and I'm preaching this to them, that you have to get ready for that, because that is the next wave of how people will do business, and how to hire and do deals. And, you know, that's a polish that you have to, to me, doesn't seem to some people, it's natural. But I think it's a practiced event. Right. So, I think that's the shift at least for me, personally and professionally.

Louis: It does, you know, obviously raise a question as to what's going to happen in the future, which is itself contingent on whether we get a handle on the pandemic and the virus and, whether there's any prospect of life returning to normal. But let's assume for a moment that it largely does, and humans being humans, we revert back to old behaviors. How difficult is it to consider to adapt to survive in an environment that's largely digital, for those that are going to continue in that space and develop relationships, which is so much about what advancement and success professionally is, like, it's difficult to do on Zoom. What's your advice to your clients about that?

George: I would say I think you can use Zoom as a vehicle, right. You can use Zoom as a vehicle to interact, but I think at the end of the day, you have to maybe use Zoom and let that be a segue to somehow meet somebody in person later on. Right? So maybe it's just to like… My intention, for example, you know, with you Lou, is for is one day we'll meet in person, right? I'll be able to shake your hand in person, not virtually, you know, with one of these knuckle bumps, right, as kids do these days. But I think if you can use Zoom to segue into a real relationship, that's powerful, right? So, I mean, there's businesses that are literally, I think they're gonna just take off. There's some people who do really well on video, right? Some people do really well face to face. They don't do great behind an email, or behind, you know, even on the phone, but they have this energy on video. And I think I would recommend segueing Zoom or whatever, you know, technology that you're using, even if it's LinkedIn, right, to segued into face to face later on with the intention to. And that's powerful, right, because it's like you're meeting an old friend when you do meet up.

Louis: So, let's put COVID aside for a moment, if that's possible, and talk a little bit about your work with the McGehrin Group, especially as it relates to individual executive branding and coaching. And I think most of our listeners would know what executive coaching entails, but help us understand what executive branding means and why it matters?

George: Right. So, I think it's important for a lot of different factors, right? So, if you're, an executive, and let's say you run an advisory firm, or a law firm, or we run a manufacturing company, or its financial services. I would say back in the day, you know, folks would think of LinkedIn as somebody being a candidate, right, looking for their next gig or their next role. Branding, which could include podcasts, it could maybe include, you know, YouTube interviews, it includes LinkedIn, the social media, part of it. Branding now is a great tool. It's a great tool to deal with partners, vendors, folks that you'd like to hire, right, so that people are attracted to your firm as well as the person that's a candidate right. So, it's also great for folks that are looking for financing for M&A deals. It just lets you control… there's an elevator pitch that you're able to control when somebody actually goes on and Google's, who's Lou Frapporti, right? Who is this guy that I'm gonna have a meeting with? When they Google you, you're able to control some of that messaging. And I think I would say that some of the really savvy execs, you know, picked up on this probably four or five, six years ago. Most executives are pretty aware of it now. But there's a multifaceted reason why, if you're not thinking about your social brand, it's a mistake. And that's an important thing. And I'd like to conclude with one last thing, which you hear all the time. And I hear this from executives, they'll say, George, you know, I don't use LinkedIn. I'm not at LinkedIn kind of guy. Right? And I, you know, I can kind of understand that point. But you have 7 billion people on this planet, right, that have access to that account. You better think about being a LinkedIn guy. If you go out someplace like a restaurant, you meet, somebody – could be a deal, they're going to Google you.  LinkedIn is the first thing that shows up. They're gonna look at your social media, they're gonna look at other things you've done. So it's a really important thing. And it just gives you an opportunity to sell and properly manage your elevator pitch. 

Louis: It just seems to me in listening to your answer George, that the idea of branding and positioning that way isn't really just transactional, it's not about simply when you want to look for a new job. It's something that's constant, it's an obligation, certainly a tool that yield results as a constant practice or discipline. Is that fair? 

George: 100%. I think it's just part of the equation. Right? So, this is a question that I get a lot, you know. We'll deal with folks that come to us, and they'll want us to revamp their CV and their executive board resume and their biography and LinkedIn. And we always sort of preface it with, you know, this is only 15% of the equation, right? Like, we could do the most wonderful work for you on the branding part of it. But the sort of strategy that you have to implement, is really almost I mean, it's more important. I'll give you the example of, you know, I've got my mother. She is 79 years old, she has dementia, right? So, you know, we live across the street from them, and so we get to see them. But if I were to buy her a brand new iPhone today, right, it doesn't matter how great that phone is, it's the fact that you need to be able to implement the use of that phone. Somebody might not find any use for it; somebody might make a couple million dollars using that phone. So, you need to think about your strategy once you have your brand together. And then the strategy is, in my professional opinion, it's 80% of the brand problem. Some people get confused, and they get kind of stuck into this, you know, if they tell the story properly, everything will be gold, it just doesn't work that way. You have to really think about your network and your power base and who you know, and who you've worked with, and people that used to work for you. And there's all that dynamic. And that's when you combine that sort of a magical combination for yourself. 

Louis: Well, it does raise an interesting point. When people think about brands, they think about products. But the reality of brands is, you know, is that brands in a sense are a promise. A promise of what the product is or who the person is, and there's nothing more disappointing in life, than a lot of brand hype that gets you excited about a person or a thing, and then of course, the reality of it doesn't quite meet the expectation of it. And so, when you talk about the necessity 85% of what the equation is, after the brand has been properly positioned, what does it take to align the packaging with the person? Because when you talk about strategy, what I'm hearing, is the reality of behaviors. That a person's behavior really is that strategy and how they live the brand. How do you make that align? How difficult is that?

George: So that's sort of an open-ended question there. I think it depends on the person, right? Some folks are just naturally able to put those two pieces together, and other people have a hard time with that. That's obviously why they hire, you know, firms like mine or other coaches. But the problem that most folks have is, it's like in a lot of the executives, they want a quick sort of ROI, right? And what's the ROI on doing this one task? And it's sometimes a sort of implicit you know, intangible ROI. It's almost like going to university, like what's the ROI if you would have gone to a different university, or if you hadn't gone at all? And I think some of the executives understand that it's a long-term play, and it's just part of the equation and it's just, you know, just part of the storyline. They do really well in that kind of environment. But the folks that want to figure out, you know, the exact math behind the branding exercise, I think they're kind of missing the point on why they need to do this. So that's kind of the disconnect I see between the two. Who would compare sort of, you know, beta test between A and B, to two executives with the same exact problem? 

Louis: Well let's talk for a second about the brand aspect of it, the 15% the 20%, which is clearly what people can experience first. And LinkedIn, you've mentioned it, obviously, there are other ways in communication, you talk and work on writing quite a bit, which is critical. But when you talk about LinkedIn, what are the mistakes that you see is most common in people and how they present their brand? Digitally? 

George: Right. So, the first thing is I think they need to quantify scope in terms of the exact three or four or five problems they're continually solving. Right? So, some people have really interesting sort of pedigree backgrounds, but they don't have a cohesive message of why they've been continually getting hired over the last 15, 20, 25 years. So usually, they're solving three, four or five core problems, right? So that's the first piece. The second piece, and I see this over and over, it's showing the chess player, chess strategist, right, the version of view versus the technician. And you see this a lot, especially with CEOs and sometimes CFOs. But it's more about how you run the business. And if you're not a CEO or a CFO… If you're a CFO, it's your pseudo COO skill set, or your pseudo CO skill set. But it's more about how you move the pieces, then your day to day, and what you do for a living, right, so the qualitative job tasks. That's the second mistake I see over and over. And the third thing is, which is just really basic, you have to think about this in the framing, you know, let's say that you make a half million dollars a year, you make a million dollars a year, in five seconds or less, and this is why you hire an expert to do this. In five seconds or less, you have to show on paper, why are you worth that million dollars to sort of, quote unquote, hang out at your next place? Right. And I think people don't take that task really seriously. Those are three major mistakes that I see. You know, I always recommend, you know, you're trying to solve a million dollar problem, or, a half a million dollar problem, it's not whatever the service might cost you kind of problem. And I think those are the three things. Qualification scope, you know, number two is just the overall, sort of zero to hero story in terms of the things you bring to the table. And the third thing is also, like I mentioned, obviously, a different order, but just playing strategists versus the technician problem.

Louis: So I'm gonna unpack the second one a little bit, because I think the majority of people who listened to the podcast aren't necessarily CEOs, they're aspiring CEOs who are wanting to work their way up in an organization or be successful. But it would seem to me that the advice that you're giving them is constant and necessary throughout a career that you've got to show value and your capacity to solve problems, to anticipate problems, and not simply to react and provide, you know, a technical solution. And so in that regard, not that you're necessarily dealing with very much of a younger compliment, what advice would you give to those aspiring CEOs as to how to cultivate not just that brand, but the reality of behaving and living every day as a problem solver? And value creator?

George: I mean that's a great question. I would say, number one, you need to overdeliver, right? So over deliver, number two, I would say be extremely engaged in whatever you're doing. Number three, and I see this over and over, and you've seen this too Lou, it's like, that's not my job, or that's not my role. Most of the CEOs I've seen, I mean, you know, they're so engaged. I mean, you really don't hear that from them, even though they know it's not their job, or not their role. But you need to have an attitude, where you're willing to step out of the box and do other things. Maybe it's not part of the job that you were hired for. There comes a point where, and I think if you're looking to get a sort of, let's say, you're looking to move up in the ladder and move up in sort of the scale there or move up in that organization, you have to get to that symbiotic relationship where I, you know, I need you as much as you need me and once you get to that magical point, that's when you can start to move up and combine that with. With being able to solve problems and combine that with great communication skills and combine that with being able to really lead people, it's a win for both sides. And you'll see that the other thing sometimes you see Lou, sometimes you see with the bridesmaid versus the bride, I don't know if you've seen that in the career, where people are passed up. Sometimes the easiest way to get a better paying job or a better ranking role is just to change companies. Right? Let's say you're VP and you'd like to get to where you're, you know, you sort of report to the CEO, and you report to the CEO over and over and over for 15, 20 years. The easiest way to get that CEO spot is just to change companies and sell that story. 

Louis: When you were talking about those innate qualities that, I think, separate those who are successful in advancing or at a CEO level from those who aren't, you were talking about not having the attitude that it's not my job. Being engaged, being a problem solver. What came to my mind, George, is the thought leadership around servant leadership, the ability of leaders to view themselves as being really on a mission to help others, help their employees and help their colleagues succeed. Is it something that you subscribe to? Do you think that's an important attitude to cultivate?

George: I mean, I preach that here in my own company. We just hired a new salesperson. On my team, we've got 29 people, right, so there's 30 of us total, but we just hired our new person, right? So, this person will be number 31. I've spent, in the last two or three weeks, I mean, I'm spending pretty much 5,6,7 hours a week with this person to make sure that he understands exactly where we're trying to go, you know, what we're trying to accomplish. We're role playing. This is something I had done 20 years ago, right, 19 years ago. The feedback from him was, George, I've never worked in an environment where the person at the top took the time to actually do all this with me, you know, and I appreciate that. He is gonna have so much success with us. But I think you have to realize, is that my job? I certainly would say, it's probably not my job. To me, that's my job, right. It's my job to make sure that I preach culture. It's my job to be, you know, sort of a cheerleader and an ambassador for what he's going to do and the success that we'll have. And I've learned that, by the way. I've learned that from the CEOs of top companies, fortune 50 companies, right. They're still engaged with some of their employees, it's amazing. And that's something you can, if you're an aspiring CEO, you know, that's a great takeaway from today's call. To make sure that you add value and just give, and you know, things come full circle. 

Louis: It's interesting, and I love your observation around this, because I couldn't agree more with what you've just said. But it also very much is the case insofar as you were talking about LinkedIn. That an individual's ability to network, and see it not as something that that one gets, but what can give to those with whom you network, where you're there, you know, you're offering to help even in circumstances in which there's nothing directly in it for you. And that creates brand. And of course, when that happens over and over, and you are seen as that person, it seems to have a very significant effect in growing your network. What would you say about that is an important consideration in expanding a network and having a successful career? 

George: So, I see this. This is another common mistake I see. Sometimes people are ready for the next role, or that maybe they've been, as of late, furloughed. They've lost contact with some of the people that they've worked with before, and then they need to reactivate some of these relationships. The smart executives, they're always, you know, networking, right? They're always trying to help somebody else out with another job. If that's the way you're operating then, you know, that's wonderful. Most people are not operating that way. You have to be very careful. I mean, coming from the recruiting side, I meet people literally every day that say, hey, George, can you give me a job to give me this or give me that? Maybe they've met me for 25 seconds, right? They don't know anything about me. I mean, how many times in your career has somebody asked you for a job right? Or they asked you to get you in here or there, and you kind of cringe when you hear that right? And when it becomes genuine because they were just giving…I think it goes back to that message of over delivering during your whole career. Asking for favor or asking to be part of somebody else's network is extremely important. There's a statistic, by the way Lou, that there's an 85% chance that you'll find your next role through six degrees of separation. And then I think the other part is, you know, through guys like myself and companies like mine, this is when you get to a certain level. So, you need to be really conscious of that, right? You know, somebody knows somebody that knows somebody will get your next job, maybe they'll get you your next client, right? So, you have to continually just try to help people out. I was on a podcast this afternoon, where somebody actually asked me, George, could you recommend me to these three people I noticed you know. I told my team, send the person 10 people. So, he had asked for three, and we were giving him 10. You need to over deliver on things that you promise, and that's how you build a long-term career. 

Louis: When you were talking about the over delivering. That's a skill, It's something that can be done so much, it seems of what makes an effective leader, or speaks to how people are promoted. It appears to be about certain innate qualities. And some believe, and I'm curious as to your views on this, that success is about those innate qualities that folks are born with. Some folks have it, some folks don't. But do you think that success in business and success as a leader is entirely dependent on what you're born with? Or can you learn and develop those skills in a way that leads to a successful career?

George: I think it's proven that you have to…I think everybody has a core skill set, and the other things you can learn. I don't really believe that. I mean, I've been, quote unquote selling for a long time, but it's something that I have to always practice, right? Some would say that I was born with the ability to be able to convey a message so that customers, you know, work with us. But I'm always working on that skill set, right, through either courses or reading or listening to how other people take a different approach. I would say everything we do in life is, they say that it's a 10,000-hour event. But I think where people make mistakes is… you know when I was younger, I think I wanted to be a professional basketball player. I'm too short for that. Right? You have to be realistic as well with your skill set. 

Louis: Sure.

George: Listen, I'm very good at the visionary part, I'm very good at from a business standpoint, very good at coming up with sort of, you know, ideas that grow things. I'm terrible at the execution. I mean, that's just the way I'm wired. But I hire people that are good at that. And I hire people that are great, you know, on the execution side, I hire people that are great operators. So, you have to think about what your core skill is. If can expose that, that's great. Things are not great at, you need to hire folks for that and build a team around you, that have almost polar sort of opposite skill sets. That's what we've done here. And I see that over and over, the best leaders out there, and the ones that are able to recognize what they're not great at, and they hire for that. And they build teams to complement their shortcomings.

Louis: And that's a great insight. Speaks to me the fact that having some degree of self awareness, taking an inventory of who you are, what you can do well, recognizing what you can't, and then building on that and constantly and continuously learning become key determinants of success. That's what I'm hearing what you've said, and I think probably a great takeaway for folks who are listening.

George: Right. And self awareness is something I think that comes with maturity, right? Once you get older, and sometimes you see this in younger kids, they do really well in life later on. But I don't know if you agree with this, but I think you really don't start, I mean, my self awareness started in, you know, my late 30s. Right, that's when I started to think about things a little more strategically and tactical, you know, maybe in a more mature way. And I think the sooner you can start thinking about that, you're an entrepreneur, you're still a student, let's say you're inspiring CEO, the shortcoming thing is a power, right? It's that knowledge is power for yourself, and not only from a professional standpoint, but just from a personal standpoint. Everybody has, we all have these demons, I guess you can call them and it's good to recognize that to be able to work on those things.

Louis: I noticed in the descriptions and writings that I read of you, clearly, you understand the importance of vision and dreaming, and you have a tolerance for failure. And I say that because of what you've just said, you know, those who succeed tend to have the courage if I can call it that, to fail, to try. But when it comes to the question of self-awareness, you know, failure can be a great teacher. It's massively important in terms of growth and success. If you can learn the lessons that failure yields, rather than, for example, blaming somebody else or not understanding why you failed and how to do better, would you agree with that? And is there some observations that you can make about that in your career and the advice that you give to others? 

George: Right, so my story is, I mean, I started my business because I was unemployed, right? So, I had this, maybe you would call this sort of pedigree background. I worked for a big four, I was able to study economics at Oxford, right? So, I did all these cool things, and I was still unemployed. So, because of a bad job choice that I had taken, they shut down a company and I literally started my recruiting company because of that. So that was a failure, that was sort of a mistake turned into a business model. And then I built up the company and all my clients were banks and financial institutions. And I went for it. Now, I went from 50 people, back to zero, right. So, I learned that again. And, you know, I had to start again. And the business that I run today is literally because of the failure that I had in 2009. I've got a more diverse client port; we've got these clients that are all over the place in terms of industry and geography and revenue. We have different streams of income. We have different business lines. It was all because of the failure. So, I think if you look at professional sports, I mean, I'll use the baseball example. You've got folks that are in the Hall of Fame, and they're batting 330. So that means that they're failing 67% of the time, right? And they're getting rewarded to fail, more than they're winning. You'll see everybody, I mean, everyone that's ever really done anything, I don't know if I'd put myself in this category as successful, but you know, just there's a lot of failure there. You have to be able to pick yourself up, and then that's it. That's it, that's an important lesson. I'm not taking life too seriously, and I think sometimes people take it too seriously. You need to be able to recognize, you know, there's lessons there you learn, and you get better at what you're doing. I feel blessed, actually, by some of the things that had happened in my life. To me, it's like this. It's like this bank account of knowledge, these experiences. To me, some of the best things that ever happened to me, and, by the way, in 2009, to paint that picture a little better, I was at the time, financially, just so irresponsible. I'd lost two houses, right? Because I just was so leveraged with cash, I did so many things wrong, you know. And now in this COVID-19, you know, quote unquote, sort of era, I mean, I'm getting to reap some of the benefits of my losses in 2009. So, to me, it's a blessing that I had some of those major failures. 2009 took me two years to pick myself up, quite frankly. So that was a long, you know, 2009-2011, rough couple years there for me and my business.

Louis: No question. And you're talking about failure. And using the example or metaphor of baseball, I was reminded of that iconic Michael Jordan. I don't know if you remember it back in the day where he is in a basketball court shooting hoops, and over the narration is him talking about all the shots he's missed in his career, right. And, of course, the ability to be able to tolerate failure and keep going is clearly critical in his life. But you know, it's funny in reflecting on that, it's one thing to have the capacity to fail and the willingness as an individual. In my experience, organizationally, where there's a real challenge is in more senior leadership, having a tolerance for failure and others, and seeing that as an opportunity for growth for those within an organization. And frankly, being transparent and encouraging of people taking chances to fail, because obviously, so many organizations are afraid of the consequences of their failing and what the implications are for their career. Is that something that you've experienced in your work with leaders and in businesses? 

George: Well, that's usually I mean, you see that in a lot of toxic work environments, right, where people are not allowed to fail. And you see that over and over. Usually, I mean, that's a key indicator that there's a toxic work environment right or, they've just hired the wrong person or the wrong persons in that spot. Or you know, there's a point where I think when you work with somebody, you sort of give them multiple chances. And, you know, sometimes some people are not fit out for now, they're not suited for certain tasks or certain roles. I think I've seen more of the toxic environment now where some people are afraid to take chances, they're afraid to create risk. But I would say, if you're a leader, and your team is afraid to do that, then, you know, in general, you're gonna have a bigger problem than just that one person, right? You have a cultural problem. The interesting thing is I've worked with people that are making from $300,000 a year to $4-5 million, right. And we've done a lot of placements like that. The number one component that I've seen in all of those sort of salary specs has been the why people didn't work out in a role. It's usually because of their people skills right, it's because of the leadership skills. It's not because they didn't hit their numbers. I mean, you've seen this even in your organization, there's people that aren't…they're not the best. But they're just always there. Right? They're present. And they're team players, and they give have other positive, you know, they bring other things to the table. Usually, it's a people problem, right? It's a people problem. It's a personality issue, they get triggered as easily. That's usually the biggest problem when you see these people failing at an organization, that's been my experience. I always ask one question, when we start a search. What was the number one reason or what is the number one reason you're replacing this person, right? And everything is obviously confidential. And they'll pretty much say in laymen terms, the guy has a bad attitude. He's just doesn't fit what we're trying to do. And that's pretty much what they tell me. And, you know, I must have heard that, I don't know 400 times that one line, about attitude.

Louis: When you say that, I'm curious. So you're hearing that in organizations that are filling new spots, but of course, you have clients who come to you looking for new work, and maybe in some circumstances, because they've been let go? Is that actually a conversation that you have with those clients in terms of you're looking to be successful in placing them? Or it's not something that you say, but you're looking to see whether they have a bad attitude, which is obviously going to complicate the conversation? How does that factor in?

George: I mean, I have one of these personalities where I'm probably not a great cheerleader. So, I sort of preface by my advice to them, with that first. That listen I'm not here to be your cheerleader, I'm here to sort of give real counsel on what you need to do. And this is why you've been the bridesmaid, not the bride, you know, 15 times in a row. You need to change these four or five things, right. Some people, you know, some people don't want to hear, and some people are really willing to hear, the ones that are willing to make a change. They do really well later on it. That's a tough conversation, right? I mean, when you tell somebody constructively, what their shortcoming is. I mean, in your situation, how many times have you let somebody go because a lot of times it's an attitude problem, right? I mean, I don't know if you agree with that.

Louis: 100%.

George: Yeah. And it's that lack of engagement, right, it's not that they didn't dot their I's and cross their T's. It's the fact that they didn't care about doing that. Or they just don't treat it like their own business. That's the biggest problem that have, we work with people, they might work for organization, but everybody that we're working with, most of these folks treat it like it's their own business, which it is their own business. So, it always comes down to that, but that's a tough conversation to have with people that are paying you to be honest with them. Some don't want to hear, you know, some tell you about all the great stuff they've done, and I get it, but you know, there's a reason that they're on the market, and especially if they're unemployed sometimes. 

Louis: There's a couple of things that come to mind when you mentioned that. Maybe not related, maybe related. One of them that I recall in dealing with medical malpractice litigation. Seeing some research that suggests that the highest percentage reason for physicians being sued for malpractice has not to do with their competence or whether their negligence, but their bedside manner. That litigants were more likely to sue a physician even if they were competent and provide competent service because they were jerks. Right? And less likely to suit incompetent physicians who had a wonderful bedside manner and who they liked. 

George: Right. Well, that's it. I mean, I can tell you this, we have like a laundry list of just amazing clients. And it's not because I'm the smartest guy, you know, recruiter guy out there, it's just, you know, maybe in terms of the relationship piece, I might play that better than my competition. So, you're spot on about that. I mean, it's hard to do harmful things, or, you know, maybe that's what's perceived harmful to good people, right? It's just, you don't want to give them a second chance. I have a guy on my team, I'm not gonna mention his name, but he's sort of has symptoms of like ADD, right, you know, so it's difficult to manage. And sometimes, you know, the best management is I just, I learned how to… I hired somebody to teach me how to manage that kind of personality, right? Because he's a good guy, you know, like, he's a good guy. And maybe in other organizations, they would have made me let him go, you know, he's worked for me now for five years. So, I was able to manage him a little better, and I just accept some of the mistakes he's made, right.

Louis: So, just out of curiosity, I'm interested in this both from a leadership perspective, but also individually in terms of either self assessment or recruitment. Are you a believer in the usefulness of psychological assessment tools like Myers Briggs? Are they a part of your routine? And if they are, is there a tool of that type that you think is particularly helpful?

George: I mean, I'm biased towards this, but 100% we use this to actually hire people, Myers Briggs, there's CliftonStrengths, there's the DiSC 360, right. A lot of these tools, and a lot of them are even free online now these days, but I'm a firm believer of hiring people that don't fit into your persons. You know, if you've got a team of 50 people, it doesn't make sense to have 49 entrepreneurs on your team, right? So, it's like a recipe for disaster. Everybody that we work with, we test. We actually once a year, we actually take the test, and we take the test and we share the results, everybody shares the results, right? I think it's cool to see. 

Louis: Yeah, it's cool. 

George: Yeah. It's interesting to see what, you know, what Lou's profile is right? And you're like, oh yeah, that's a spot-on assessment. Or you learn something about other people that you didn't, maybe you wouldn't assume. And then you can give them more responsibility, do other things. Does your does your firm do tests as well with new hires?

Louis: No, not generally. And frankly, in the legal industry, it's not terribly common to do that, although it's something that I've looked at a lot and feel strongly about. And it's a useful tool to have, right? Well, both for self awareness, and both to see how people would compliment an organization in terms of their attributes. Because let's face it, if what you're doing is exceptional, as a branding consultant for a person, sometimes, what I'm looking at in terms of hiring isn't necessarily what I'm going to get. And a tool helps to shed some light on that.

George: Well, the interview in itself is flawed, right, you know, the whole interview process, and how people meet and hire people. And, you know, this is just even going back to the whole video presence, right, even that's gonna be flawed. You're gonna find, and I think you'll see litigation one day actually on this, you'll see litigation where people working from home will say, listen, I don't want to give my employer the right to see me on video, right, even though I work from home. So, I don't know if there's litigation out there so far, but because there will be bias, right, there's gonna be bias in the environment, they'll be biased based on what the person looks like. Any tool that you can have to better assess people, you know, to better assess possible hires is a great thing. I guess I mean, do you think there's a reason that the legal profession doesn't give/have that as a practice to test folks? What do you think the reason for that is?

Louis: So, I can't say that I know for sure. But I think so much of what the legal industry does is rooted in its history, and the profession itself isn't operating on the same plane, as many of the businesses it serves in terms of its practices. It's very tradition bound. And I think that's part of the equation, we don't and haven't traditionally used that. I think lawyers depend very much, maybe overly so, on their sense of judgment and intuition, and just aren't used to using tools of that type. And I feel like it's going to change. I think certainly some firms are doing that. Probably will increase over time. But we're not there yet. For sure.

George: Right. Right. I mean, would you say you're 15% there? 30%? What percentage would you, if you were to give it sort of a ranking or rating, what percentage do you think you are?

Louis: Well, I'm going to say 15 would be charitable. But there's a related, I think there's an interesting observation about that, both in the US and in Canada. So much of our hiring, generally, is a function of, you know, the university law school mill, in terms of academic performance. So generally, historically, you're looking for the top students from the best schools. You know, the reality of my experience, and maybe that's just because I come from a hardscrabble background is that often the most successful lawyers are those that have really developed soft skills, and their academic performance really just measures their ability to do tests. But the ability to succeed in an organization and with clients, which is so dependent on relationship skills isn't really measured or valued. And it's those things that become important in assessing a candidate, which I think would be helpful in terms of insight by using those tests. And when we use proxies for them, right. I mean, you're looking at a resume, I tend to look for high levels of achievement in team sports, or athletics, significant accomplishment and things outside of their chosen field, whether it's music, or something else, which shows some aptitudes that are critical, or life experiences that I think reflect a person's nature and who they'll be in the organization. You know, it's funny. And on that point, you've done a hell of a job in creating that story in the material that you share about yourself, including the fact for example, that you're an ultra marathoner. I found that very interesting. There are all kinds of stories and how you present your brand. I obviously know that's important to you.

George: Well, I mean, it's tactical. It's how you'd say, well how does running habit? What does that have anything to do with somebody professionally, right? And it goes to your point, it's the mindset, right? It's the fact that somebody, you know, took the time to figure out how to run 80 kilometers, or, you know, and we're trained for that, right. There's a discipline to that. And I also come from that sort of, you know, that background where you kind of hustle, you know, to get ahead and initially, my grandfather from the Italian side, I mean, he didn't have more than a second grade education. And then my grandfather from the Irish side, he was a truck driver, right. So, it just comes from this sort of silver spoon background, right. But I can tell you, the one thing you learn is, and I don't know about you, but I would almost bet you $1 I mean, I get up at 4:30 in the morning, and you're probably one of those guys that gets up at 4:30, 5 o'clock in the morning, right? 

Louis: Yeah. I'm laughing when you reference an Italian and an Irish background, because if you were a chemistry experiment and you were to mix those two chemicals together, it makes for a pretty explosive.

George: Yeah, I've got a cool Irish last name. And I've got the Italian nose, you know, to go with it. So, it's good. I'd taken a picture of, this was on Father's Day, was a Sunday, at 8:30 in the morning, I took a picture of the parking lot of the office building I'm in, right. And I was the only car in that whole building, you know, in the whole lot. Right? And sometimes people say to me, and they'll come up to me and say, hey George, like, what's the secret? What's your secret? What's your trick? How do I do this? And, you know, and I guess I'll preface that with, I was at work at 8:30 in the morning on a Sunday, but I'd also run like 20 kilometers before that, you know, before I got to work. So yeah, I had done more than most people do on a Sunday. It was Father's Day as well. I was there for a couple hours. But it's that go get them hustle. Right. And that's hard to hire based on a school or an academic relationship. You know, I agree with you. And I, you know, so I'll go back to the reference of the Oxford thing. There are a lot of smart people at that university, but I also met a lot of people that weren't so bright, you know, and you see that everywhere, right? You've got some top universities in Canada. If you went to McGill, it doesn't mean that you're the brightest guy in Canada. You know, there's a lot of people that aren't, so I agree. It's that hustle, that scrappiness that gets people, at the end of the day, ahead.

Louis: I couldn't agree more George. Listen, as we're wrapping up here, I got one last question for you. Obviously, there's an enormous amount of self help and business literature and learning out there. And no shortage of folks who are popular today and in conveying advice and wisdom. Among the thought leaders that are out there, and you know, Simon Sinek comes to mind who is somebody quite popular, are there thought leaders, writers, speakers today that you think are particularly relevant and helpful that you would recommend?

George: Right. So, there's one person actually, in talking about Simon Sinek he wrote the book Why, right? 

Louis: Correct. Yeah, among others. Yeah.

George: Right. There's somebody who actually interviewed him. There's a guy, he's actually Canadian. Rock Thomas, have you heard of him? 

Louis: I don't believe that I have.

George: So, he's a real estate. You know, he's a multimillionaire. He lives in Montreal. Yeah. When he was younger, he was told as a kid that like, hey, you know, you're not really worth anything from his father. Right? And he had a very difficult upbringing. And he had grew up with this self, it's just as terrible. So, he started this movement called the I AM, right, the I AM movement. He works with executives, and he works with leaders and he's got a podcast. I was on his podcast a couple of months ago. But he's got this movement. Yeah, but he's Canadian guy. He's really interesting to listen to, so he's Rock Thomas, right. There's a video on goalcast, if I remember correctly, I think it had 6 million, 7 million views. Really interesting. But it talks about you defining who you are, right. Like you, not somebody else, right. Lou is going to define who Lou is and not someone else. Really, really interesting to listen to. And I'm a fan of, are you a Tim Ferriss fan? Do you like Tim Ferriss?

Louis: Yes, I do. 

George: So, I'm just fascinated by these life hacks. You know, so I'm a Tim Ferriss fan, I'm fascinated by pretty much everything he does, I've been a fan for years. He's the kind of thing you should listen to. The problem right now is there's so many gurus, right? Every knows that there's these people on YouTube and Instagram, there's all these experts, you know, kind of working from their garage.

Louis: It is hard to separate the pretenders from the real ones. Yeah, it's I mean, it's also true, though, that for those especially younger folks who are looking to be exposed to new wisdoms, you know, back in the day, George, when we were kids, if we were going to do that we had to go to the library and check out a book, right, there's just an enormous amount of information in a variety of different ways that you can get. You just need to be able to figure out how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

George: Exactly. And I can finish with this on my side. But the ability to be able to, like you say, prove yourself with just access to online tools doesn't cost much, right. If you have to find the right, you know, the right people, if you're financially able to afford it, you know, you can hire people to help you and just to speed up the process, and that's one of the things that I wish I had done sooner, invest in myself, invest in coaches, and the sort of people that could help me grow. Because, the more that you work, and the more that you kind of get involved with life and kids and marriages and other things, you just, you've just stopped growing as a person. And I think if you can, you could pay people to help you. It's a blessing financially, but I, you know, if you're a younger kid out there, and you're listening to this, you know, be careful of this sort of overnight success story about how if you sell 20, you know, 20 widgets, then you're going to become a millionaire. 20 years, I mean, I can tell you right now, it took me about 15 years to figure this out. Right. So, you know, the last five years have been terrific. But it took me 15 years of hard work to really kind of, quote unquote, rig the system, right, to be able to do what I do now.

Louis: So, George, that's a phenomenal bit of advice to end the podcast on and we'll be obviously putting particulars of who you are and how to get a hold of you on the site, when we release it. I want to thank you very much for taking the time to be on the Accelerating Business Podcast and I wish you all the best.

George: Lou, I appreciate the intellectual, you know, you're just a great interview. It's just different style, and I appreciate that. So, thank you.

Louis: All right, take care of man. 

George: Thanks.