The Space: elevating early talent - episode two - Inge Perry

Emma Dennis: Welcome to Series 2 of The Space where we break down barriers and perceptions about a career in law by talking to the talented people of Gowling WLG.  This series is all about early talent and we get to dive under the surface and understand the diverse experiences and perspectives of our people. 

Today I am delighted to be here with Inge Perry a trainee in our Birmingham office to  hear more about her journey into law so far so hi Inge thank you for being here today.  I have been doing my research on you and I know that you joined the firm as a trainee back in 2022 and as we are recording this you are about to qualify next week.

Inge Perry: Yeah one more week left.

Emma: What does that feel like?

Inge: A bit surreal to be honest it is one of those processes that actually it takes so many years to get to the point of getting a training contract, having done you know the studies and then you know when you start at two years sounds like such a long time but actually it has flown by so the fact that I am qualifying in a week's time just is a bit mind blowing to be honest.

Emma: I bet it is…until you get to it…

Inge: Yeah.

Emma: …..it is sort of like this thing like you say that you have been striving for so long.

Inge: Yeah I think as well with the training contract being broken up into you know four different teams across six months you get so engrossed in the teams that you are in that you almost feel like you have not noticed that the six months have gone by and then now I am suddenly in the last like 'oh gosh this is going to be the last move that I make' and then I am in my permanent team.

Emma: What team are you going to be qualifying into?

Inge: I am going to be qualifying into property litigation.

Emma: Fantastic, oh brilliant.  I wanted to start by asking you some questions around sort of your education history because I have done like I said I have been researching you and I know that you studied, I think and correct me if I am wrong, foreign languages, literature and linguistics.…..god I think I need to speak that today….and then you went on to do I think a Masters in Law I just wondered what led you to those choices?

Inge: Yeah, so I mean, I will not give you the whole breakdown from day one but I have changed my mind many times about the direction going in from astrophysics to ultimately you know doing linguistics at University and the reason that I ended up doing the languages that I did was I made a decision to go to University in Germany.  I am a German citizen and education is free so you know no student fees…..why not….and it is…I mean I am not going to blab too much about the German education system but I am a big fan and you get a lot of freedom and flexibility with how you study. 

You have always got to do two subjects and I just love languages I was raised bilingually and so I ended up doing a teaching degree for English as a foreign language and French just because those were the best sort of job combos in Germany at the time and I had the freedom to do Russian, Italian, Portuguese and bask alongside it which is just so much fun. 

But when it came down to it towards the end of that degree I was thinking sort of long term, what do I actually want to do and I knew I wanted a nice hopefully long career and I wanted something that was challenging, something that would be mentally stimulating, different every day and when I sort of broke it down law just felt like it was quite a good fit for me and then I was looking at options of how to get into law. 

I was originally looking at something in Berlin where I would have spent a year in Russia but that was an Advanced Masters and I had to have a Masters to get there so I thought oh I will come back to England and do a Master of Law which also counts as a conversion degree as I then learned and once I was through my Master of Law and I learnt more about becoming a solicitor in England I realised actually that was a really significant step towards making that happen and I thought it was the best choice for me then to actually pursue becoming a solicitor in England and Wales and at that point I started looking into training contracts and ultimately found Gowling WLG and that was pretty much what I had my sights set on from day one then at that point.

Emma: And did you always know that you wanted to work in a law firm like Gowling was it always sort of this corporate type law that you wanted to get into?

Inge: Yeah.  I think I like things on big scales and so when I was looking for firms I was looking first of all for firms that have got international reach just based on you know potentially being able to maybe make use of my languages and the degree that I had but also I just love being able to interact with different cultures, people from different backgrounds, languages. 

I was born in Birmingham and I have still got family here so I was looking for a you know reputable firm in Birmingham if possible and yeah in all of the searches Gowling just ticked all of the boxes really.

Emma: Fantastic. So you did your studying in Germany and then you came back to the UK to do your law degree and am I right that you grew up on the Isle of Man?

Inge: Yeah that is right so I was born in Birmingham but we moved there when I was about four or five years old so I went through all of primary and secondary education on the Isle of Man.

Emma: And what did you do while you were studying for your degree I think you had a job where you worked on the Isle of Man that when I was looking it ended up looking really interesting.

Inge: Yeah when I decided to do the Master of Law I decided to do it remotely through the University of Law so I moved back to the Isle of Man to stay with my mum and I was looking for some work to help fund that degree and I ended up through a weird chain of events stumbling upon an internship in the Isle of Man Parliament and it was not actually quite what I was looking for. I was hoping for something in a law firm or at the time something energy related because I was interested in the energy sector but the more I looked into this internship it just sounded fantastic.  You know they pay a fair salary for an intern and the experience that you get just sounded really applicable to kind of any role that involves working with people in an office space and also engaging with the legal system so I was fortunate enough to get that and then I did that internship while I was doing my MMA Law.

Emma: Oh fantastic that must have been a really good experience.

Inge: It was fantastic it was odd because Covid happened halfway through that year so it was I would say…..I mean it is already always a unique experience I think doing that internship anyway but it was extra interesting thanks to Covid.

Emma: Yeah.  From that moment of realising you wanted to be a lawyer and then getting on to a vacation scheme and eventually getting a training contract were there any challenges you had in that process?

Inge: I think one of the things that I was not quite expecting is because I had not from the get go when I was looking at going into law I was not focused solely on you know England and Wales solicitor training contract route so once I started to learn more about it and I was ….you know there are loads of online forums of people trying to get training contracts and actually I think it can be quite dangerous to delve too deep into them because it is a very competitive space, there are lots of people going for very few numbers of jobs and I did find it difficult sometimes just to actually rein myself back from getting too….I do not know too consumed with what other people were doing and their process of trying to find a training contract and just focusing on myself, focusing on the firms that I wanted to apply for and not what everybody else says you should be applying for and you know things like people always focus so much on London and I think it is really important to recognise that there is a lot more happening in the legal space across the country not just in London and you can have a great career in law without being in the capital.  It was….yeah…trying to block out other people's voices on those forums and just remember that you have just got to be yourself at the end of the day and sort of have a bit of conviction with what you are going for.

Emma: And can you remember your vacation scheme that you did here at Gowling?

Inge: Yeah again that was a really interesting one and I loved telling our current vacation scheme students whenever they come around about it because it was Covid so I did not have any experience in the firm in person in the usual way but the firm to their credit did a great job of setting up a remote vacation scheme so it was about three and a half days of having various talks from different partners, different people at the firm in different roles and they gave us little tasks in-between that we could work on but obviously there was limited scope for one-on-one supervision so in a way I keep on….people ask me you know which one would I prefer to have done would I prefer to have it in person or did I enjoy the online one and there was a lot to be said for the online scheme just because I think we did get more exposure to various people because they had to fill all that time with online talks so I think from that perspective it was a really really good experience, I learnt so much about the firm.

Emma: And how did the assessment centre bit work was that online?

Inge: Yeah that was all still online as well so I think… I do not know if the format has changed since but I think the overall format at that time was kept very much the same so we had tasks that we had to do by ourself…you know sort of testing our you know reading, attention to details skills, so that was all quite normal which was all word processed and then we did group activities over whichever video platform it was that they were using and I think actually in a way that was really good and is something that I think could still be used in the future for vacation schemes because most of our work now because of Covid ….most of our work now does tend to be with clients over things like Teams and Zoom so you have got to be able to navigate online meetings and there is a skill to being able to interject, to say what you want to say, but also listening to other people and so I do not think that that was a negative that we had to do that group task online.  I think it was very applicable to modern practice and then yeah the interview again I think in a way it was almost an advantage to have the interview remotely because I think you can be a bit calmer in your own space.

Emma: You can have your like notes to the side and nobody can see they are there.

Inge: But again you know the partner and the HR representative that did my interview were both really really lovely and it was new to all of us I think that was the first online vacation scheme so it was yeah it was overall weird and kind of wonderful time.

Emma: What advice would you give to anybody who is looking now…applying for vacation schemes and is sort of going through that whole process, what advice would you give in terms of from start to finish application process through to actually being there on the day?

Inge: I know when I was going through it, you hear it all the time, but I remember it sounded a bit annoying when people say 'just be yourself' because I think it's such a hard concept to grasp at times but it is so true.  I think if you try too hard to sound like what you think people want you to be and want you to have done you are just going to come across a bit robotic and firms like Gowling really are looking for individual people that are going to work well in the various teams here and are going to be bring a bit of uniqueness to the firm and just a bit of own personality, a bit of touch.  I think be yourself in the sense that do not try too hard to think about what you think somebody else wants you to be, just focus on what you are and what you have done and present that.

I think that on top of what I said before about not focusing too much about thinking that to have a successful career in law you have got to be in London, absolutely not.  But also, do not feel like you have had to had so much experience in law in order to apply for a training contract.  I had absolutely no background in law whatsoever, the closest I got was my job in Parliament, which is still very different to legal practice and actually I found that in the interview there are so many transferable skills from so many different things, I have worked in hotels, I have worked in various roles at airports, I did a couple of weeks at McDonalds as well and all of those jobs had skills that are so transferable to career in law and quite frankly they are skills that a lot of people who have only done work experience in law firms are not going to have, so focus on those.  Do not think that just because it is not law it is not relevant and definitely do not be embarrassed by any work experience you have got because it is all so so relevant.

Emma: That is really important actually for people to realise that because I have involved in a few vacation schemes and you almost sort of see the worry in people that they have not got all the law experience that others have but it is the skills that are important.  It is the skills you learn and you can continue to learn.

We are going to take a short break now and when we are back we will find out more about Inga's experience as a trainee here at Gowling WLG.

Welcome back to part two, we are going to kick off Inga with some quick fire questions to get to know you a little bit more.

What was your first job?

Inga:  My first job was delivering newspapers.

Emma:  I feel like nobody does that.  You do not here delivering newspapers jobs anymore.

Inga:  I feel like this is where it might give away that I am one of the older trainees.

Emma:  I always wanted a job delivering newspapers when I was a kid.

Inga:  It was a bit annoying having to wake up early every single day but actually I used to do it walking as well on the Isle of Man by the sea so nice fresh air on a Sunday morning delivering papers.

Emma:  Perfect.  What is your favourite animal?

Inga:  Dogs.  Closely followed by goats.

Emma:  Goats?

Inga: Goats, they are just hilarious and cute.

Emma:  This is an important one.  Is your bed made right now?

Inga:  It is.

Emma:  Every time, every body makes their bed.

Inga:  It is only because I have got a house inspection this afternoon.

Emma:  Would it normally be made?

Inga:  Probably not.

Emma:  That makes me feel better because mine is not made right now.

What time do you usually wake up in the mornings.

Inga:  I do usually wake up at 05:30, I do not know if I want to give that impression to people.

Emma:  Is that just natural body clock wake up time.

Inga:  No, I would say it is probably decades of habit.  Like I said my first job was delivering newspapers, I had to get up early then, I worked at an airport for five years and early shifts would start at 05:30.  I worked in a hotel when I was living in Germany, I did breakfast so I was up before then to start at 05:30.

Emma:  You have been conditioned.

Inga:  I have been conditioned and I think sometimes as well, I mean I live a bit out of the city and I drive in so it is just nice to beat the traffic, get a free parking space and just start the day off.  I prefer a early start, get some work in, you can get some proper concentration time in the morning and then you can have a bit more of a relaxed working day then you know if people want to stop and have a chat I do not have worry because I have already done a decent shift in the morning.

Emma:  I am with you, I wake up at 05:20 if I am coming into the office and then I am in early to miss the traffic as well.  What is your favourite movie?

Inga:  Oh that is a tricky one.  I feel like I am going to go ahead and say Lord of the Rings.

Emma:  What is your dream holiday destination?

Inga:  Right now, Iceland.  I think longer term I have always wanted to go to Japan, it is just finding the time and really planning it out to make sure that you can make the most of the time over there.

Emma:  Yes, I would like to go to Japan as well.  What is your hidden talent?

Inga:  I feel like I want to say my excel skills.  But at this firm it is no longer that hidden because I scream about it all the time, I ask people if I can do spreadsheets for them.

Emma:  What is your favourite biscuit?

Inga:  Just a bit of classic shortbread.

Emma:  These are just really either or ones.  Cats or dogs?

Inga:  Dogs.

Emma:  Are you more a introvert or an extrovert?

Inga:  Introvert.

Emma:  Night out or a night in.

Inga:  Night in.

Emma:  Pineapple on pizza, yes or no?

Inga:  I want to say no but I have got to yes.

Emma:  Are you a night owl or an early bird.

Inga:  I am by nature I am a night owl but I basically force myself to be an early bird.

Emma:  I wanted to start to ask you some questions just about your experience at the firm during your training contract.  I mentioned earlier you started your training contract in 2022.  What has your experience been like so far.

Inga:  It has been fantastic, it really has.  Even though you do all of the application process and you learn so much about the firm during that process, it still does not quite prepare you for what you are going to experience as a trainee because even though the whole firm has got a very common theme in terms of the people around and the type of friendliness levels but each team is obviously unique with unique individuals and I am just so happy with the experience that I have had.

I have worked with teams that are full of genuinely wonderful people who have been so supported and I think the quality of training that I have had has definitely exceed my expectations.  I think I have been trusted a lot more with work than I might have expected to be and I have been given real opportunities to progress and to actually apply my own knowledge rather than just around doing admin tasks for other people all day, I get a chance to do the work, have it be supervised and then I can learn from it.  It has been fantastic and like I say I feel very fortunate to have worked with the teams that I have worked with so far.

Emma:  We are a sector focused law firm and I know that the trainees now also have a sector focus.  I just wondered what that has been like for you and what the benefits of that have been.

Inga:  I think it is a really good idea: a) because like you say we are a sector focused firm and I think it is important for us to recognise that we have got clients that will have worked for us in so many different teams and it is good for us to be able to understand that we might be doing a work for a client in intellectual property but actually they might still have some really significant real estate work going on.  So even though we cannot necessarily help them with their real estate issues if we know that actually we are sector focus firm we can offer services such a broad spectrum, we can point people in the right direction and I think learning that at trainee level is really important to help trainees understand how they are going to be developing when they are associates and a big part of being a lawyer is also developing to a certain degree your own brand and your own practice down the line and I do not think that it is silly for trainees to already be thinking about that.  Obviously not expecting build it straight away but those things come with small steps and I think during your training contract is a great place to start so in a positive way being forced to already do that I think is really good.

My first sector that I was allocated to, because we get allocated for a year each time so our first two seats we are in one sector and then for the second two we are in another one.  I was put in the government sector which I thought was quite good and quite applicable really given my experience working in a Parliament and so I had a lot transferable knowledge that I could use there and it was a great way to interact with other lawyers in the firm for teams that I do not work with every single day.  My first seat I was in planning which is a real estate team so working in the government sector I was liaising with partners and associates at various levels in some of the corporate and commercial teams.  It was a real chance for me to build my own network, to learn about other work happening in the firm and like I say it gave me a chance as well as a first seater, it was quite nice to use my immediate experience to help the teams with some development.

Emma:  Brillant, and what motivates you at work?  What keeps you going?

Inga:  I always like being busy and I love learning things.  I think my motivation does mostly come from I want to do new things and I want to learn more about the law so I suppose the motivation comes from the more work that I do and in particular areas the more chance that I have got to either advance in that space so that I can do more complex stuff, learn about more things or potentially then branch out into others areas as well.  So I think it is just that constant thirst for some new knowledge that keeps me going.

Emma:  What support systems or resources have you found most helpful during your training contract?

Inga:  There is a lot that the firm offers generally for everybody but I do think as a trainee they have already got such a good structure in place for you in terms of support.  Every seat you are in you have got your direct supervisor who is also somebody that you can go to if you have ever got any issues and you can speak to.  But throughout the whole training contract we are allocated a partner principle and I think that is a really good idea because that person will stay with you throughout those two years and they are completely separate to your day-to-day work so you really can go to them for general career advice.  Obviously if you had any issues, which I have not had, in a team that you wanted to discuss separately you have got that person you can go to so I think there is already such a great structure in place to give trainees that pointer as to where you can go.

But separate from that the firm very frequently puts on various training sessions and talks on different subjects and I have been able to attend quite of few of them and do find them really helpful.  Not even just for helping you with maybe some of your own issues or things that you wanted to work on, there have been quite a few talks about managing work/life balance, managing stress in the workplace and they actually have a programme that trainees can go through for the first, I cannot remember how many weeks, specific sessions put on for us about essentially starting our careers off on the right foot with our personal habits and how not to get burnt out at work which I think is really important because it is very slippery slope.

There have been talks about things like, how to manage family commitments with work and there are other talks as well specifically focusing on men's mental health, I actually found that session really helpful because I think some of the more helpful sessions are helping you getting a perspective of what the people around you might be going through, not necessarily what you are and I think that just helps you understand how better to work with people and potentially to spot issues that they are dealing with and to support them that way.

Emma:  If you were to look back over your experience so far, look back over the last couple of years, is there any one moment that really sticks out for you?  Either from the day job, client perspective or from a personal perspective.

Inga:  I think I would probably have to say being able to go to, not to Court for the first time but going to Court on a case that I had quite a lot of input on and being able to physically before me see the results of the hard work that we had been putting in is particularly rewarding.  I think that is probably what I would go for and I think it was also one of those moments that just confirmed to me that litigation is the area of law I want to go into.

Emma:  And how do you balance the demands of being a trainee with your personal commitments or interest?  What do you do to make sure you try and keep that, I hate the word balance because I do not think it is ever balanced, it always sways around but how do you try and make sure that you have got time for everything that is important to you.

Inga:  I think it just comes down to recognising that there comes a point where you have just got to draw a line and like you say I do not think there ever is a perfect balance it will flow all the time.  There might be times where you are going to have to put extra effort into work and you might feel like you are not spending as much time with your family as you want to but then there are going to be other times where that scale will tip.  I think the most important thing like I say is and I have had some really helpful tips from people that I have worked with and who have supervised me throughout the past couple of years which is understanding that just because something needs to be done does not mean that it needs to be done right now.  So just taking a step back and thinking actually do I need to do this tonight or can it wait until tomorrow and just communicating with people as well actually.

I think as a trainee and I understand it can be really daunting sometimes to try and tell somebody who is giving you a deadline, I am going to struggle to make it without working stupid hours but people are reasonable and there are great people at this firm who understand that as well.  I think all it takes is one conversation to say, this is what I am working on right now, I am working on x, y, z as well with these deadline and nine times out of ten probably more than nine times out of ten you can find a way to make it work that does not mean that you are going to be online until midnight because it is just not necessary.  So I think recognising that a) you need to draw a line and b) you can speak to your supervisors about drawing that line and they will help you with that I think is probably the most significant thing as a junior not even just as a trainee I think as a junior in general is understanding the importance of communicating.

Emma:  That communication bit is critical isn't it to be able to have open conversations about things.

Igna:  I think otherwise you are going to drown silently and the outcome is going to probably be worse as a result so you are not helping anybody let alone yourself.

Emma:  Looking forward then, what are you aspirations for the rest of your career?

Inga:  Oh gosh, it all seems quite strange to stay in place but I am really looking forward to going back to property litigation.  I am also hoping to develop a nice long career in that area as well.  I think to begin with I am just looking forward to getting stuck back in, taking on whichever cases are thrown my way and just trying really to again expand and develop my knowledge in the space as much as I can and try to just get as much exposure to working with the various people in the team.  Pretty much just a direct extension of the training contract I think, is just working on developing my own knowledge, my own skills ultimately my own brand and just seeing where I can take it and how I can grow with up, hopefully with Gowling.

Emma:  Exciting times ahead.  Can you think of a piece of advice that anybody has given that has really stuck with you and helps you so far in your career.

Inga:  I think it probably does fall back on the whole does it need to happen right now.  Somebody did say to me quite clearly, this is not life threatening stuff, no body is going to die if we do not manage to do this today so leave it for tomorrow.  It is not saying it is not important and that it is valuable work but it is just gaining that perspective and I think again I do not think it is just a trainee thing but I think especially when you know you are only in a team for six months and you want to give it your all and give it your best and make the most of that time it is just recognising that as amazing as working here is and being able to have this career there is more to life.

In fact I can give a quote of the best piece of advice I have been given which was very recently in a piece of feedback that I received, really lovely feedback but it was essentially emphasising the importance of making time outside of work because it takes balanced human to be a good lawyer and I thought actually that is a really good piece of advice.

Emma:  I like that.  That is really good.  My last question to you is what is the best thing that has happened to you this week.

Igna:  Well I went on a hike up a mountain in Switzerland with a panoramic view of a beautiful lake and the alps all around me, the sun was shining, there were flowers blooming everywhere and it was just a beautiful moment of peace and serenity.  So I would probably have to say that in all fairness.

Emma:  That sounds amazing.  That sounds perfect I need to go and do that.  I need to go and climb a mountain somewhere.  Well a huge thank you Inga for joining today and for sharing your story and your insights.  I really enjoyed talking to you.

Igna:  Thank you very much it is lovely to be here.

Emma:  We will be back next week to get to know more talented people here at Gowling WLG.  So thank you for listening, have a wonderful week and remember we all have the power to make a difference.