The Space: Leadership and law - episode five

Emma Dennis: Welcome to The Space where we break down barriers to perceptions about a career in law by talking to the talented people of Gowling WLG.

I am Emma Dennis, diversity, inclusion and wellbeing senior manager at Gowling WLG, so join me as we get to dive under the surface and understand the diverse experiences and perspectives of our people, how they have got to where they are and what they wished they had known.

So today we are here with Navin Prabhakar, partner in the firm's Banking and Finance team to hear more about his role, how he got to where he is and what is feels like to have a career change.

So, hi Navin – thank you first of all for being here.

Navin Prabhakar: No problem, glad to be here.

Emma: So you've been at the firm I think since 2008?

Navin: That's right.

Emma: And before that I understand you had a very long, quite long career in pharmacy, as well, as a pharmacist?

Navin: Yeah well, no, I'm not that old yet!

Emma: [Laughs]

Navin: So I'd been a pharmacist for around nine years before I joined the firm as a trainee.

Emma: And what was that like, just out of interest, what was it, what made you go into pharmacy and what was that like?

Navin: I'd always been pretty good at sciences at school and I had a bit of an interest in either medicine or pharmacy and some of the work experience I'd done and people that I knew made me choose a path to go down the pharmacy route and so I went away and did that at university and graduated and yeah so I did that for about nine years and during that time I started to think about what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I think it's very difficult actually at 18 to know what you want to do for the rest of your life, it's a really big crossroads and looking at it now and I look at my own children I think would you be in a position to make a decision when you are 18? It's very difficult.

Emma: Yeah. Are you glad that you did the pharmacy bit first, are you… when you look back, are you glad of the experience that that gave you?

Navin: Yeah, yeah, definitely because it gives you a whole different skillset and so you are learning too not only the clinical side of the work that you do but interacting with the public, managing teams, managing trainees and they come through as pre-registration pharmacists as they were called. So you learn a whole bunch of different skills in that which you can actually transfer to quite a number of jobs and I think that really did happen when I landed here.

Emma: Can you remember what moment led to the change to then go into law?

Navin: Yeah, it was meeting my wife.

Emma: [Laughs]

Navin: Which obviously was great in many ways! So yeah, I'd always wanted to do law conversion. I'd always had this interest in perhaps going down the medical negligence route and specialising in that. And, it is like when you leave university you start to clear a few debts and you are earning an income and you think well I don't want to go back to studying, so it kind of fell away. And then I met my now wife, and she was a trainee lawyer and she was finishing training and this re-ignited it and I had lots of discussions with her and she was like it's very hard to get a training contract and, it's not easy, so this stubborn character in me wanted to prove her wrong. So I, yeah, so I went and I decided, actually made the final decision on our honeymoon, which obviously went down really well, that I was going to change career and came back and in the September started the graduate diploma in law off my own back and by April of the following year I was lucky enough to have secured a vacational place here at what was Wragges and then from that, on that vacational scheme I secured a training contract. So I know that that's quite a rapid process and actually, looking back at it now, very, very lucky to have done it so quickly, and quite fortunate to have secured that so when I look at it now it's not as straightforward.

Emma: Is it a scary moment to make that decision that you were going to change?

Navin: Yeah, it definitely was, you are giving up security, you have got a secure income, you are looking forward to building your life and then suddenly you throw a massive curve ball and then say I am actually going to go back to studying and so then you take a step down if you want to see about that in terms of income and trying to keep a house running and all that kind of stuff together. So then you rely on each other to support you through that and so yeah it was a big decision and it was scary but it was one that I knew was right from the outset.

Emma: And then you mention you trained back… you trained here at the firm back when it was Wragge & Co, what was that like, the process then of starting your training contract and that period as well?

Navin: Yeah, it took, it took a little bit of adjustment going from working in… well the last two years I was working for Boots, I was working in their head office on projects and then suddenly coming into a completely different field, different hours, different pressures and my cohort were obviously all younger than me by, five, six years at least. So, I was working and training with a bunch of other people, which was fine because I am adaptable, I get on with people pretty quickly. So it's like anything isn't it, when you go into something new, it's always going to be a little bit daunting to start with but you can see very quickly the good people around you and the kind of culture, and that's a clichéd word but you could just see the working environment made that so much easier.

Emma: Did you know when you got to the end of your training contract that you wanted to go into the Banking and Finance team?

Navin: That's a good question. So I was in a real dilemma when I came to the end of my… the way my training contract panned out was not quite as I had hoped in terms of the seats that I did and that's going to be the same for a lot of trainees. But I really wanted to do an IP seat and that was going through my third seat. So, I started doing that seat and about five, six weeks into it I got sent on secondment to Deutsche Bank, so it was back into banking. But I enjoyed all of my seats and I really enjoyed my real estate seat as well and in fact I accepted a job in real estate on qualification. I went away on holiday, and it was a really difficult decision between banking and real estate. I went away on holiday which I think was the timescales and pressure of making that decision and I went away and reflected, and on reflection I felt as if I hadn't made the right decision for me. So I came back and thankfully the banking job was still available and I had to go to the real estate partner to explain my…

Emma: Change of mind.

Navin: …change of heart, which… I wasn't looking forward to that conversation but actually the partner, he was really good. He said the main thing is you're staying at the firm and actually that's a really good attitude and approach and I really appreciated that response.

Emma: And when you qualified as a lawyer, was partnership always the goal?

Navin: Yeah, I think it's always at the back of the mind, isn't it? I think though it's something that is always there as an ultimate 'that's where you want to get to', that's where I might want to get to. But it wasn't, at the early stage it wasn't the be all and end all. It's something, I think you've just got to take each month, each year, each experience and learn from it and build from there and I think if you try and set yourself a goal and try and hit that by a certain date I'm not sure that's the right approach. So it was something that was certainly there and part of the thinking but it wasn't an all-out right from the start.

Emma: And I guess as you move through your career and partnership became within reach, that you were getting closer to that, what were your perceptions of what partnership was going to be like?

Navin: You always know it's going to be, it's going to be hard work but then everything in life is.

Emma: Yep!

Navin: So it's, it will be a different way of working. Were my perceptions what I thought then are the reality now to some extent? Yes. You have to wear a number of different hats, you have to spin a number of plates and your role clearly changes, responsibility and accountability changes, so I knew all of that was coming. There's always going to be lots of stuff that you don't know and you just… it kind of hits your desk and hits your inbox and so yeah, it wasn't wildly different to what it actually is.

Emma: Good. And I guess what's your favourite bit about partnership? I mean, you were promoted back in 2020…

Navin: Yes.

Emma: … to partner, what's been your favourite bit so far, three years, three years in?

Navin: It's being able to get out to clients more and it makes, it does make winning work easier. I think the nature of what we do in banking has always been something that means that you work with different parts of the firm in terms of the disciplines because there's lots of different areas. It just means they come into, they come into your web, but I think the best thing for me though has been actually being able to go out and meet partners and different teams which probably through my own doing meant that I wasn't doing that as much necessarily in the earlier years. But it just opens up that opportunity to go and meet other terms, meet other partners, and actually learn about their parts of the business.

Emma: We'll take a short break now and when we're back we'll find out more about Navin's career and what advice he'd give those at the start of theirs.

[music]

Emma: Welcome back to part two, we're going to kick off with some quickfire questions. Where did you grow up?

Navin: Born and bred in Coventry.

Emma: Lovely. What time do you usually wake up in the morning?

Navin: About 6am.

Emma: Wow, early.

Navin: Yeah.

Emma: Early one. Is your bed made right now?

Navin: Yes.

Emma: Everybody, everybody's bed is made.

Navin: I've been trained, I've been trained.

Emma: [Laughs]

Navin: If you'd asked me about 17, 18 years ago I would have said maybe not.

Emma: [Laughs] My aim for this podcast series is to find somebody whose bed is not made when I ask them that question! What's your favourite breakfast?

Navin: Scrambled eggs.

Emma: Ooh, I like scrambled eggs.

Navin: Scrambled eggs on toast.

Emma: Yeah, good choice. Favourite movie?

Navin: Godfather Two.

Emma: Favourite season?

Navin: Summer.

Emma: Yeah. Dream holiday destination?

Navin: The Caribbean.

Emma: Everybody, everybody's going for the definitely… either Caribbean or somewhere tropical beachy.

Navin: I've done Mexico but not like Barbados or Jamaica or…

Emma: Barbados would be nice.

Navin: St Lucia.

Emma: And then we've got some versus questions, so either/or questions.

Navin: Oh, go on then.

Emma: Would you rather fly or have super strength?

Navin: Fly.

Emma: Are you more of an introvert or an extrovert?

Navin: Introvert.

Emma: Night out or a night in?

Navin: I think a night out, night out.

Emma: And do you learn by watching or learn by doing?

Navin: More watching, I tend to go watching.

[music]

Emma: OK. So before we took a break we were talking about partnership and I just wondered now that you are a partner, what do you think makes a good partner?

Navin: I think somebody who listens not only to… you have to clearly listen to your clients but listen to your team, listen to others around you, so I think having that open mind and willingness to listen.

Emma: And I know we often talk at the firm about people developing that pipeline of future talent and to develop people through to partnership. What would you say to anybody who was early in their careers at the moment and was looking at partnership and was unsure about whether that was what they wanted?

Navin: I would say don't rule it out and give yourself time. A lot of people nowadays are in a rush to get somewhere and I think you're a long time working, so take that time to build up your skills, build up your knowledge, learn from people, go and speak to people and build that picture up slowly, you don't have to make a rash decision. Take your time, make a measured decision.

Emma: Yeah, and I guess you've probably mentioned a couple of things there about things people could be thinking about throughout their careers that puts them into a good place to get to partnership. Is there anything else people could be focusing on at an earlier stage?

Navin: I think your technical knowledge has to be a given, so just get that under your belt first, don't let the rush to get promoted and push on overtake the core skills and just be prepared to get stuck in.

Emma: And what advice would you give anybody that was thinking about a career change at the moment, if they were thinking about 'I'm going to do a complete change and go into law'?

Navin: Yeah.

Emma: What advice can you give them?

Navin: I would say have an open mind about it, ok, because you will, when people tell you what's good and bad about things, and that's from their experience. Speak to as many people as possible to get a general consensus of what they're all thinking. Don't be afraid to change career, don't be afraid to make a change because like I said, your working life is typically quite a long life and if you think you made the wrong choice early on there's a long time to put it right. And I think that that goes for people who are sitting A-Levels, getting A-Level results, appreciate at the time if they don't quite get the results that they want that it can feel like the end of the world but there's so much time to think of a different avenue or put things right so not to stress out and panic if things don't happen in the first year, the second year, the third year. There's a long time to get things right.

Emma: And what does a typical day look like for you at work now?

Navin: I'm not sure there is a typical day. I think that one thing I have noticed over the years clearly is managing email traffic is, for everyone, not just partners but everyone, there's a lot. So, I think I'd like to get on top of… my workday I'd like to get on top of my emails, deal with anything urgent first, get on top of my emails, plan out different workstreams that we're working on. Catching up with the team, that's really important rather than just getting your head down and motoring on, is speaking to each of the guys that you're working with, get an update, see how they are, not just about the workstream but just see how they are. And that's the one big thing about coming into the office is just catching up with people and spending that quality time with them, not necessarily just talk about work but to talk about what's going on in their lives as well.

Emma: You mentioned you've got children.

Navin: Yes.

Emma: How many children have you got?

Navin: Two.

Emma: Two – how old are they?

Navin: 14 and 12.

Emma: How do you balance the demands of partnership and your job with responsibilities outside of work and your family?

Navin: It's always a challenge. I think right from the outset actually because we had our daughter when I was in my first seat as a trainee. It's about getting that balance right; how do we manage it? I think that a mixture of two things. One is as you get a bit more experienced, you know how you can manage your workload and when you can do certain things. I think clients and people in general, particularly since Covid, people have understood that actually there is that balance to be had and I think people are a bit more relaxed. As long as work gets done, that has to be a given but I think people are a bit more relaxed, so if you turned round and said to somebody 'actually I need to take my son to football practice tonight', as long as there's not a completion or something crazy urgent, then people generally accept that.

I will wherever possible make sure on a Thursday evening I'm available for my son to take him football training and then weekends are all about them. So how do I manage that… as they've got older like anything it gets easier doesn't it? They're like different challenges but I think it's knowing when you can prioritise things and when you can you should outside of work.

Emma: Yeah, you're right, logistically it feels like it gets easier as they get older because they're more self-sufficient but then you've got all the other… feels like emotional stuff that comes with age.

Navin: Yeah, yeah, well there is that. I mean yesterday my son said to me 'Daddy, on Thursday are you ok to drop me off in town?' He's 12 years old, I'm like 'yeah, I'll just plan my whole workday around'. And my daughter said 'Dad, I need dropping off in Leamington on Friday.'

Emma: You just turn into a taxi service the older they get.

Navin: Yeah, yes indeed yeah.

Emma: You're a taxi and a hotel!

Navin: That's it.

Emma: That's it.

Navin: But the good thing is that you can plan around that…

Emma: Yeah.

Navin: … and I think it comes back to the point about how do you balance that, if you can do it.

Emma: Yeah, I think Covid, the positive of that is that flexibility has increased, and everybody is on that page of we know we can be more flexible…

Navin: Yes.

Emma: … to fit those things in. I'm jumping around a little bit here…

Navin: That's all right.

Emma: … but what advice would you give anyone who's at the start of their legal career at the moment?

Navin: I think get stuck in, get stuck into transactions or deals or whatever it is that you're working on, cases. Try and read around whatever it is the topic that you're working on, try and be proactive in trying to learn things yourself. Yes, you'll have training sessions and learning by listening to other people and that's a really powerful thing actually, listening to other people and learning by osmosis. But I think it's trying to read around something if you've got a matter that's coming up, try and look into it in advance or if there's something that you come across and you need to go back and look at it, just fill in your knowledge gaps and you'll find that your confidence builds once you get that because you'll know for next time. And once you know for next time, you'll then learn something a little bit wider off the subject which will just supplement the knowledge. So all I would say is just take every opportunity to learn, get involved in transactions, deals, cases and learn as much as you can.

Emma: And looking back over your career so far, are there any really memorable deals or transactions or work that you've been a part of that sticks in your head?

Navin: Good or bad?

Emma: Either – [laughs] – one of each!

Navin: We've worked on some really, really big deals and some market-leading deals, so working with Sanctuary, it was the first investment by the European Investment Bank into that sector, so I worked on that deal with the partner at the time, so that was new. We've won lots of deals with private equity houses, some of their biggest deals, the ones that have won awards at dealmakers… deal of the year, that type, that's really, really rewarding. The hardest, trickiest deal we worked on was… it was probably about, it was probably about six years ago, it was… it required for about six weekends on the trot being in all the way through Friday night, all the way through Saturday night. It was the most horrendous deal ever and it was horrible, it was absolutely horrible - so I won't name the client!

Emma: [Laughs] And when it's things like that, because I know the type of work you do there are times when it's full on like that, how do you get through those periods or is it when you get to the end of that there's a 'oh' moment?

Navin: Yeah, at the end of it there is that and there's always a… whenever you close a deal, the clients are going off and they're on a high with their deal, their transaction is completed and it's a bit like, it's like a bit of a physical downer actually because the lawyers are left with all the post-completion stuff to do and it's like 'right, we've done that'. Yeah, it just like… it is a bit like that. How do you get yourself through it? I think you have to keep yourself motivated, focused, remind yourself of the end target, otherwise you'll get lost in the middle of the transaction, and remind yourself what you're working towards and it's working together with the team. That deal, there was, three or four of us were doing it and it's just pulling together as a team and getting through it.

Emma: It's people that help, isn't it, I think when you've got good people around you…

Navin: Yeah.

Emma: … and you're all supporting…

Navin: Supporting each other, yeah.

Emma: … each other. And then I just have one final question for you and it was what is the best thing that's happened to you over the last week? It can be work, it can be out of work.

Navin: We took the decision to buy a dog.

Emma: Yeah.

Navin: Yeah, I'm quite looking forward to that.

Emma: That is an exciting thing, it's definitely good. [Laughs]

Navin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah.

Emma: So thank you for being here today, it's been really good to hear some of your story. We'll be back next week to get to know more of our talented people here at Gowling WLG. Thank you for listening. Have a wonderful week and remember we all have the power to make a difference.